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spritual perfection....i need help

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eternalmade Mar 25, 2006

ok this is a BIG delema .....and its splitting my church in two.. its spirtual perfection.....heres the story...well theres these 2 guys in my church and they claim that we as christains canlive with out sin...that we indeed dont have to sin... they've even said that they themsleves have achived this sinless state...now there not claiming it through there own power..but there claiming it through jesus...well my youth pastor and my best freind/ brother...has a prablem with this teaching ...he claim that is a heresy...now im stuck somewhere in the middle beacuse ..these 2 guys i've known for all my life and my youth pastor is my brother and there is no way im going to just dich him unless its a pretty freakking good reason...so please im begging you if you have something to say..some advice..so info on the topic ...no some where where i can get info on this topic it would be much appreciated...thank you godbless eternalmade...

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Logic Mar 25, 2006

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.They are being arrogant and proud not walking in hummility.They are causing dissentionPro 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him::17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, :18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, :19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

sermonindex Mar 25, 2006

Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son," the angel said, Mary will bear a son, "and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."The purpose of Jesus' death is to free us from our sins -- to destroy sin in us -- to free our lives from sinning. It isn't so that we'll be able to go on sinning in this life.Romans 6:1-23 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Don't you know, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. Do not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Don't you know, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But thank God, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:6-12, "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin. For the one that died has been justified from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts."

sermonindex Mar 25, 2006

You said"They are being arrogant and proud not walking in humility."How can a person truly be proud and arrogant if it is true work of Christ and not their own efforts!!!

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crsschk Mar 25, 2006

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:12-14Either were already perfect - This is a distinct assertion of the apostle Paul that he did not regard himself as a perfect man. He had not reached that state where he was free from sin. It is not indeed a declaration that no one was perfect, or that no one could be in this life but it is a declaration that he did not regard himself as having attained to it. Yet who can urge better claims to having attained perfection than Paul could have done? Who has surpassed him in love, and zeal, and self-denial, and true devotedness to the service of the Redeemer? Who has more elevated views of God, and of the plan of salvation? Who prays more, or lives nearer to God than he did? That must be extraordinary piety which surpasses that of the apostle Paul; and he who lays claim to a degree of holiness which even Paul did not pretend to, gives little evidence that he has any true knowledge of himself, or has ever been imbued with the true humility which the gospel produces.It should be observed, however, that many critics, as Bloomfield, Koppe, Rosenmuller, Robinson (Lexicon), Clarke, the editor of The Pictorial Bible, and others, suppose the word used here - τελειόω teleioō - not to refer to moral or Christian perfection, but to be an allusion to the games that were celebrated in Greece, and to mean that he had not completed his course and arrived at the goal, so as to receive the prize. According to this, the sense would be, that he had not yet received the crown which he aspired after as the result of his efforts in this life. It is of importance to understand precisely what he meant by the declaration here; and, in order to this, it will be proper to look at the meaning of the word elsewhere in the New Testament. The word properly means, to complete, to make perfect, so as to be full, or so that nothing shall be wanting. In the New Testament it is used in the following places, and is translated in the following manner: It is rendered “fulfilled” in Luk_2:23; Joh_19:28; “perfect,” and “perfected,” in Luk_13:32; Joh_17:23; 2Co_12:9; Phi_3:12; Heb_2:10; Heb_5:9; Heb_7:19; Heb_9:9; Heb_10:1, Heb_10:14; Heb_11:40; Heb_12:23; Jam_2:22; 1Jo_2:5; 1Jo_4:12, 1Jo_4:17-18; “finish,” and “finished,” Joh_5:36; Act_20:24; and “consecrated,” Heb_7:28.In one case Act_20:24, it is applied to a race or course that is run - “That I might finish my course with joy;” but this is the only instance, unless it be in the case before us. The proper sense of the word is that of bringing to an end, or rendering complete, so that nothing shall be wanting. The idea of Paul evidently is, that he had not yet attained that which would be the completion of his hopes. There was something which he was striving after, which he had not obtained, and which was needful to render him perfect, or complete. He lacked now what he hoped yet to attain to; and that which he lacked may refer to all those things which were wanting in his character and condition then, which he expected to secure in the resurrection. What he would then obtain, would be - perfect freedom from sin, deliverance from trials and temptations, victory over the grave, and the possession of immortal life.As those things were needful in order to the completion of his happiness, we may suppose that he referred to them now, when he says that he was not yet “perfect.” This word, therefore, while it will embrace an allusion to moral character, need not be understood of that only, but may include all those things which were necessary to be observed in order to his complete felicity. Though there may be, therefore, an allusion in the passage to the Grecian foot-races, yet still it would teach that he did not regard himself as in any sense perfect in all respects, there were things wanting to render his character and condition complete, or what he desired they might ultimately be. The same is true of all Christians now. We are imperfect in our moral and religious character, in our joys, in our condition. Our state here is far different from that which will exist in heaven; and no Christian can say, anymore than Paul could, that he has obtained that which is requisite to the completion or perfection of his character and condition. He looks for something brighter and purer in the world beyond the grave. Though, therefore, there may be - as I think the connection and phraseology seem to demand - a reference to the Grecian games, yet the sense of the passage is not materially varied. It was still a struggle for the crown of perfection - a crown which the apostle says he had not yet obtained. Albert Barnes~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~my youth pastor is my brother and there is no way im going to just dich him unless its a pretty freakking good reason...so please im begging you if you have something to say..some advice..Since you asked. The replacement word you used, does it change the meaning?

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h2oboy Mar 25, 2006

Hi Mike,I was wondering if you see a difference in 'sinlessness' and absoulte moral perfection?If we were to define sin as 'missing the mark' and define the mark as faith (whatsoever is not of faith is sin.) then couldn't a person reach a place in Christ where he is listening to God's voice (the indwelling Holy Spirit) believing what God says and then acting upon that belief such that he is 'faultless' before God, and yet not be perfect by absolute standards?If he is obedient to the truth that has been revealed to him is he not 'sinless' even if he does something that is considered sin to someone else?Judging others 'sin' by the truth that is revealed to us can be very dangerous.Love ya!Jeff

sermonindex Mar 25, 2006

The doctrine of entire sanctification is a dangerous doctrine, and should not be persued by someone who is new in Christ. I say STUDY it, but I would be very careful trying to apply it to my own life. It has landed many people in the looney ben. Just, PLEASE, be careful. I don't fully understand it myself, but I have read John Wesleys "A Plain Account Of Christian Perfection". I do believe in holiness, but personally I do not believe you can reach sinless perfection in this fleshly, fallen body. I think you leave yourself open for alot of unclean spirits by persuing this type of spirituality. Not saying it can't happen. But I have never heard of, or met anyone who has reached it. I really don't think it is ment for us to reach it. If we did, why would we need God to lean on? Rom.7:15-21 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 FOR I KNOW THAT IN ME( THAT IS IN MY FLESH) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, THAT I DO.

sermonindex Mar 25, 2006

To etrenalmade,What denomination are you, if I might ask? I don't want to turn this into a denominational discussion, but just curious.

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Logic Mar 26, 2006

freecd wrote:You said"They are being arrogant and proud not walking in humility."How can a person truly be proud and arrogant if it is true work of Christ and not their own efforts!!!Because they said, "that they themsleves have achived this sinless state."The words "they themsleves" sounds bostfull.AndIts splitting the church in two.This can not come from good fruit.

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

h2oboy, you did a good post. Can I just say that "the mark" is CHRIST. You sure did get the definition of sin right on though ... "Missing the MARK" ... which is Christ ... raises the bar a bit. I meant to say Welcome and to get your signature to stay, on the signature place where you type it in, click on add to all posts, or whatever that wee box says that ya click.Lord Bless.

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h2oboy Mar 26, 2006

Hi Annie,Thanks for the kind words and the answer to my question.I agree that Christ is the goal. Conformity to Christ is the purpose of the on going work of the Holy Spirit within us. So many people think that they can achieve that goal with an act of their will to change. Those of us that have been down that road know that it is a dead end.He who began a good work in us will continue to perform it. Praise God. But there is a cooperation on our part. He speaks, we listen and obey. This was the life of Christ on earth. He only did what the Father told Him. Christ in us will do the same thing.By the way I really like the softer side of you that has been showing lately. I realized that the bees really had you going Ha those first couple of days when I first came here. I look forward to hearing more of the wisdom that God has depostied in you.Love you.Jeff

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

Hey Jeff, I was JUST NOW reading your posts on Frank's thread and the Lord said, go check for new post. Ha ... you're not kidding about "He speaks, we listen and obey". Good stuff on that thread and this one too. I sent Andy this link on his thread cuz I like the guys to handle the guys for the most part.He's a good egg that Andy. He just needs faith.Anyhow, I rejoiced to see your Sig pop-up while I was reading. Neat ... Good Word we have.Jeff, I'd rather be soft till Jesus comes back ... but ... don't count on it, cuz I just don't put any trust in the flesh or in how God wants me to post "sometimes". Sometimes it's Him, sometimes it's Annie. But He said to me through a few posters here Romans 8:28.I'm a bug-saver Jeff. I save bugs from being eaten or killed. Go figure. I save animals too and as many folks as I can get in a net. I love that word "Save" and "Life" and cry a lot for others. And feel pain for them that I think will kill me someday. but whada way ta go ... and I don't want to hurt anybody. People are made in God's image and they're worth more than a hundred birds or cats or racoons.Anyhow, you said you were rambling on Frank's thread, I didn't think so, but now you've got me rambling. Ha. Isn't that wonderful how some folks pull things out of ya.Frank's thread is doing well and I'm doing well just sitting back reading it. I'm heading back that way and many many threads, I just sit back and take in the goodness of them and don't get my yappity jaw involved with ... they're too beautiful. I'm free to stay here for a while tonite, so I'll just enjoy. Those are my favorite times on SI ... just sitting back reading. It's nice and quiet at nite too. Good stuff.Well, Thank you Jeff ... my two top Sig verses keep me alive and moving. And the other two bottom ones are my kickers. ha.Love to you and a beautiful nite and Sunday.Annie

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murdog Mar 26, 2006

Eternalmade,Do we not sin with every breath we draw?Is not every lustful desire sin?And is not every proud thought sin?And is not every wicked imagination sin?And is not every unkind suspicion sin?Every act of unbelief sin?And every working of a depraved nature sin?We committed sin as soon as we were able to stammer out a word. And as we grew in body, we grew in sinfulness.We have sins of thoughtsins of look,sins of action,sins of commission,sins of omission,sins in infancy,sins in childhood,sins in youth,sins in old age.We have all the base lusts,all the filthy workings,all the vile actions,all the pride,all the hypocrisy,all the covetousness,all the envy,hatred and malice,all the aboundings of inward iniquity.(My paraphrase of Philpot's What?Will he forgive us all our sins?)This is a stark reminder about the likelihood of being sinless in this lifetime. Once we come to Christ, sin is no longer our Master.Murray

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Christinyou Mar 26, 2006

There is one place in the believer that is perfect. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. This is the Spirit we are born again into and into us. This is the perfection that lives in us, this is our perfection Christ Himself born again in a believer. If Christ is perfect then Christ in us is Perfect. To drink of the Spirit of Christ is the born again Spirit of Christ, this is the water we must be born again with, which cleanses and keeps on cleansing. Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Finally, with Christ in us what is our standing before God. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. So in spirit if Christ be in us then the Spirit is Perfect.We are not perfect in our soul yet, our mind, will and emotions. We are leaning to be perfect by the Holy Spirit that has been given us, and is our Teacher Comforter, who does not speak of Himself but only of Christ who sent Him from the Father. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. He The Holy Spirit is teaching us all things about Christ that is in us. So our mind (soul) in not perfect yet but we will have the Holy Spirit teaching us always and we will always be learning Christ. 1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. Renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ is our spiritual service to God. Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. We are not perfect in the Flesh yet, but our flesh has been quickened so that it is now the Temple of God on this earth and it will be perfect on resurrection morning and it will be just like His Body, which we don't know exactly yet what it will be but: Phl 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.So we are perfect in Spirit, delivered and will never die, we are becoming perfect in soul (mind) and will never die, we will be perfect in body, for unless a seed fall unto the ground and die it cannot bear fruit", and will be perfect.2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, (Spirit)and doth deliver: (In soul,mind) in whom we trust that he will yet deliver (In body)[us];In Christ: Phillip

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

That's right Philip. There's a few words for perfect in the Greek and it's good to understand those. As you brought out in your post.Lord Bless.

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

Phillip saidWe are not perfect in the Flesh yet, but our flesh has been quickened so that it is now the Temple of God on this earth It (the temple of God) is also a very special kind of 'earth' in itself.Amen to that word quickened!.... brought to life!Romans 8:11 (NKJV)But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. We have Paul's word on this. I hate to get stuck in Romans 7. Not only were there no chapter divisions, but Paul was just winding up his (lengthy) preamble (not to imply the first chapters are only a 'preamble') so he could get to that magnificent THEREFORE at the beginning of what we call chapter 8. Never forget Hebrews 10:14For by one offering He has perfected [completed] forever those who are being sanctified [glorified]. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

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