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M
murdog Mar 26, 2006

SI members,Last night at my church something happened that made me uncomfortable. An evangelist was there preaching on the Cross of Christ. At the end of the service he asked people to come up and accept Jesus as their saviour. Three people came up willingly and a fourth kind of straggled up after much prompting by the evangelist.The evangelist was telling them if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour you will be saved,etc. Anyways the fourth gentlemen was apparently not repeating the prayer to the satisfaction of the evangelist and that is when things got uncomfortable. The evangelist called the young man "gutless" and then put is hand on the young man's shoulder,turned him around and pushed him down the aisle. The evangelist than said to the crowd "the next time he comes back, the young man will be serious". I felt sad in my spirit and was drawn outside to follow this young man. A man who is a member of our church and a travelling pastor himself was already outside talking to the young man. I left them alone so they could talk. Afterwards I asked the travelling pastor how it went with the young man. He said not well and he was grieved in his spirit over the incident. I asked a few people what they thought about it, some didn't think much about it and others were dismayed. I am just wondering what you guys think with the limited information I have provided you.Murray

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

I say this with extreme caution: I think the Evangelist that did this is sickening.I do not know all of the facts surrounding the situation, but from what you have explained, that Evangelist was out of line. That is just wrong-- mean, cruel.I am the sort of person that could relate with that young man. I would probably not be speaking loud either. It's a personality trait. Some people just do not like to be "loud" about things, even personal. That is just wrong that he would do that to him.I say this with all caution, too: God will hold this Evangelist accountable on the day of Judgement. I believe that he may end up having the young man's blood on his hands.What a sad thing. I'll be praying for you and your church."Gutless" ? He pushed him down the aisle?Words cannot express my anger right now. That is just tragic. Please, reach out to that young man. It may be his only hope.

R
ravin Mar 26, 2006

wasn't it Paul who said we must be all things to all people, my words , that we mite save. he (Paul) gave sample's as what it is to be all things. we are not to trick people into the kingdom they come of their own free will.Many are call but few are chosen. It is not we who have picked him but it is Christ who has chosen us, out of this world.Bro. Raven

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

Just my opinion... but that evangelist is a jerk. How did Jesus handle people who came to him in sincerity? Push them away? No, He talked to them. If this young man didnt really understand everything, then the evangelist should have taken the time to sit him down and talk to him.This is why I hate "alter calls". They are unscriptural (meaning they have no basis in scripture). It was "invented" back in the late 1800's and have become a staple of the church. So what if someone who wants to be saved isnt bold enough to come forward. They wont be bold until they receive the Holy Spirit at the moment they are saved. Why would we expect them to be bold before hand?I'm gonna be praying for this young man.Krispy

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

murdog,Does this evangelist have backing from a denomination or organisation? Is he 'responsible' to a more senior Christian somewhere? Have a secretary? A website?Without doubt, word of this incident has to get to the person/people who have power to challenge him.I don't know if you were reading the boards here when we discussed End of the Spear, but there was a lot of misinformation about Christians ...spread without foundation... rumour.As an eyewitness here, you are in a good position to comment directly to an appropriate authority...On a purely human point, a man who would bully someone out of their seat, and then bully them when they didn't pray to his satisfaction, has probably done this sort of thing before (or he wouldn't be confident enough to do it in front of such an assembly as yours (complete with a pastor in the congregation). Whether he was worried about his own reputation for leading people to Christ (and that's why he bullies - because he's looking for 'success...' a name for himself...) or he really has lost the plot (or never understood it), he does need to be prevented from presenting Jesus as a bully, ever again.

M
murdog Mar 26, 2006

Dorcas,I will find out who he is affiliated with and then see what to do after that. He is still in my town today and will be giving this morning's message and then again at 7:00p.m. I am going to try and talk to him myself today.A little more background information on the incident: The young man was around 25 and native. What this evangelist may not know is alot of native people feel it is disrespectful to look people straight in the eye. And I find some first nations people are not extremely vocal or talkative until you get to know them.Tears were in my eyes watching this young man about to give his heart to the Lord. He was rough around the edges, just as I was when I came to the Lord. I was really happy about what was about to take place. And then the evangelist asked the people to repeat after him. Jesus come into my heart,etc. And then he stopped and said to the young man "What are you too gutless?" Then he pushed the young man down the aisle. It was very humiliating. My pastor was right there at the front and did not say anything. I was in shock at what had transpired and saddened. Apparently the young man had come with two girls as well and they were heard saying they would never come back to church again.This isn't what I had in mind for reaching the lost.Murray

sermonindex Mar 26, 2006

The young man was around 25 and native. What this evangelist may not know is alot of native people feel it is disrespectful to look people straight in the eye. And I find some first nations people are not extremely vocal or talkative until you get to know them.Thank you for explaining this. It makes me see how important it is to understand the culture of those one is evangelising. Sometimes the common language hides these differences but it no way mitigates the evangelist's attitude.I'm glad you're going to try to speak to him. I hope you're not the only one with this in mind.

L
letsgetbusy Mar 26, 2006

I can't think of anything to defend the man's actions. The only time rejection (on earth) is in the Bible is of people who proclaim faith but have open sin, and even in this case there is no reason to push anyone. It seems that the man was just being pushy.Not only is the altar call not found in Scripture, neither is repeating a prayer. Like Ray Comfort says, if you have to lead someone through anything, your message is lacking.If I have cheated on my wife, should a friend have to scold me, and then lead me to my wife and say, 'Repeat after me. Dear wife.'"Dear wife."'I'm sorry.'"I'm sorry."I think it is that silly placing words in someone's mouth. There may be a time for it, but this is one example of the tragedy of relying upon it so heavily. I have heard of this confessinal type evangelism, and while it is Biblical, I think that giving someone no option other than doing exactly what you have prescribed can lead to things like this. The verses that come to mind are:Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."This verse clearly speaks of confession, but also shows the root of the confession, that it is from a heart condition. The parable of the sower and other verses clearly give a picture of God's increase taking time, and describe the change in a person in terms of 'increase,' the same way you would describe the growing of a plant over time. I know I went through a long period of time after my conversion feeling really weird and almost worried my experience wasn't valid. Mostly because I had not read a prescribed prayer, and I heard others doing this. After I read through the Bible, I was releaved that this repeated prayer was not in the Bible, and a little upset that so many seemed to be more cliché with their Christianity, rather than biblical.Another verse that makes me think this evangelist was in error:John 7:37 "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."Jesus never, to my memory, seperated anyone out of his following. He preached, and it was the truth of the messages that caused people to turn away, not picking people out and telling them to leave. What about Judas? Jesus let the betrayer hang around to the bitter end.I think you would be not only justified approaching the evangelist, but Scriptural. Talk to your pastor first (I can't remember if you said you had), to make sure your pastor is in agreement. Hopefully the pastor will agree with you, and if not, you may have a reason to go elsewhere.I think these verses apply here from Matthew 18:[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.Remember that his cruelty, though, is no reason to be cruel to him. He must be dealt with out of love. You may steer the man into correction that will bring a harvest of souls in the future.

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Graftedbranc Mar 29, 2006

This verse clearly speaks of confession, but also shows the root of the confession, that it is from a heart condition. The confession spoken of here is the confession of Christ as Lord. "If we confess with our mouth, Jesus as Lord..."The belief is in the heart, the confession is with the mouth. This is not speaking of "confession of sin" but confession of the Lord Jesus Christ. Graftedbranch

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letsgetbusy Mar 30, 2006

What I was trying to say is that it is not the confession that saves, but calling upon the name of the Lord. Confession of Jesus is just an outward work of saving faith. Clearly a multitude of Scriptures show that it is believing that saves. So I don't think this is un-biblical, to ask for a confession of the Lord Jesus, I think when it is demanded as the only way to salvation, you tend to get what happened in this case.

C
Compton Mar 30, 2006

The evangelist called the young man "gutless" and then put is hand on the young man's shoulder,turned him around and pushed him down the aisle..."And then he... said to the young man "What are you too gutless?"Sigh...This is what happens when some men's natural personality is so strong and unbroken that they don't even need the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel. They just apply what they think they've learned in business or sports to the ministry...MC

sermonindex Mar 30, 2006

It could easily turn our sighs into laughter, if this hireling would pull that stunt in a real "locker room" .... say of the Pittsburg Stealers or something.Ha, like the Sceva brothers, running away with his fancy suit slightly wrankled. Sorry, my natural personality needs breaking. Obviously.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2006

Confession of Jesus is just an outward work of saving faith.Confession is NOT just an outward work, consider this saying,"Confession is good for the soul"

A
alenska Mar 30, 2006

"They wont be bold until they receive the Holy Spirit at the moment they are saved. Why would we expect them to be bold before hand?"This rings so true to me. I once was lost, but now I am Saved. He is a lost sheep looking for his Shepard. It is very sad to think of him being beaten down during that moment in life. I do have faith that God's Will, will be done here."Confession is good for the soul"This too is true for me. I cannot truely confess with my mouth if I do not feel it with my soul. Dani

sermonindex Apr 5, 2006

murdog,Is there an end to this unhappy saga?

D
DomSpencer Apr 7, 2006

It strikes me that the "evangelist" involved has elevated himself in his own mind to the position occupied by Jesus Himself: "I am the door". He appears to think it's up to HIM to decide whether this man is saved or not! I think he may have alot to learn about the nature of the Lord, if only he would listen. I hope that in ten years' time he will look back and cringe, and the person he called "gutless" will look back and laugh, in the Presence of the Lord, and be able to use this experience to help others seeking the Lord. The encouraging thing is that "the Lord knows those who are His", and if this man's heart is the Lord's, then this will eventually be manifested in his life.

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