Unity vs. Pack Mentality.

Great post Annie.I think this teaching by Zac Poonen goes right along with what is on your heart......Blessings in Him, Cindyhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10050&;forum=34

Wow! Annie, you sure packed a lot of thinking material into your post. And you hit a lot of nails on the head. Sometimes I think I've heard more sermons on unity than any other (but not really). There seems to be a great deal of emphasis on getting along together and agreeing together. We ALL know those verses. But at times we may have felt like we were being silenced, squelched, and sort of told not to question the status quo because that would be promoting division. And we feel that we are at the mercy of those who are easily offended. We have to walk on egg-shells in order to have "unity". I was pleased that you spoke of a different kind of unity - one based on an awareness of others and a desire for their WELL-BEING which includes their on-going need to mature. Let's post for the welfare of another, even if it isn't polished or really soft, as long as our hearts are or for the welfare of the whole, would be even better.A lot of this is really just plain curtesy and sensitivity. We were suppossed to learn that in kindergarten - that is basic socialization. However, there are lots of people who are not exposed to healthy socialization (for lack of a better word). Perhaps they have experienced a lot of disunity in their homes. And they relate to others the way they saw it modelled. It may look like I'm trying to excuse the "law-breakers". Not really, I'm just trying to say that part of our striving for unity has to take into consideration that many can't and don't know how. That's reality. We can't have the ideal. The real issue is learning how to handle inevitable disharmony and move towards unity. I think the Bible has a lot to say about that. ex: A gentle answer turns away wrath. Prov. 15:1" Why not rather be wronged.." 1 Cor. 6:7I wish it said, "Agree to disagree"? Wouldn't that be helpful? Diane

Used to go to Church WHEN the service started and sit in the back cuz I was shySounds like you are talking about me. Well, I didn't quite do that, but I did, and still do prefer to blend in with the wood work. In the past it was because it felt safer, but now, I think it is because I like creating a bigger picture, by working behind the scenes. if we could be ourselves and share our REAL hearts here A grand "if"! I think we have to respect the fact that it is risky to do so, and not all are prepared to be that vulnerable before they know that it's safe. Another thought: We can't expect others to be honest about themselves if we don't ourselves take the risk. But our risk-taking is an invitation for others to be honest too, knowing that they can trust us. And maybe they can see some of themeslves refected in us. You have no doubt discovered that people on the sick forum trust you with their 'insides' once you express an ability to empathize - based, perhaps on your own experience. I suspect that on a forum like this it is easy to hide behind our interest of Bible related issues/ social/political issues, etc. But even then, that's okay. God will work in hearts in his time. No conversation need be wasted. I don't care if we get in a ring one on one ... but that NORMALLY causes the packs to come and take sides ... which causes more disunity.Sounds like your talking about politics. No, really people do tend to polarize to one side and then gather up more and more material to support their side. Here again, we have to take the risk, we can't generalize. I noticed the Bible inerrency thread, the one that took off like a rocket, appeared somewhat polarized at times, but a lot of fabulous material was presented - great food for thinking. It was worth the risk. I have to admit that when I first saw it I rolled my eyes and thought, "Here we go..." I praise God for the times I am wrong. It' just like God to do a U-turn on something and take it a different direction. Diane

I tried to explain myself once on a thread about the gifts and how because the one gift doesn't understand the way another gift works, that conflicts can come over that.LOL.......Annie, I had this post I worked for over an hour on and my husband asked me to check something for him and bam, there goes my post.......Uggg. Must not have been something I should have posted :-P Anyways, I quoted you up there because that is something I TRULY believe is a BIG problem in the church and that's why we see so much name calling. I can't tell you how many times I've been called a "legalist" or "pharisee"---by so called "spiritual" people. The reason is I think is because I'm a person who will not compromise those things the Lord has shown me to be truth-----for so called 'unity' sake. I think that's what bothers some---that I won't relent. The thing I think is ironic is that ALL of US have points of conviction that we will NOT back down on, but for some reason the areas where we are not "firmly set", we want those who are "set", to back down on those areas. I see that same thing in myself at times (the issues that are not that important to me, I can't relate to another's passion about).The problem I see is that many professing believers do not have a WHOLE BODY mentality---thats' why the negative labelling of others and the us against them mentality. I'm sure that is extremely grieving to the Lord as He desires each of us to see the value of the other in our lives. As for my part in the Body, I believe that it is the Lord's desire for me to share what He has shown me, but not to demand that others see it as I do. If what I was shown, whatever the topic or doctrine, is true, fruit will manifest---according to the Lord's timing. Many are threatened by various teachings/beliefs. Why is that? Is not the Lord able to overrule all that is not of Him? Seems to me when fur starts flying in the Body of Christ, that is a sign of a lack of faith that the Holy Spirit is able to do something, and that instead, man MUST protect what he/she perceives to be the truth. Some of the most vicious attacks I've seen come from those who "say" they are honoring God and protecting the Body of Christ. Instead, what I see is that those who are nasty (outright or masking the nastiness with spiritual sounding "words" for another), is a lack of faith and in that FLESH trying to take over and be the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit does not need our help. We are called to share the Word of God with others in love, and leave it to Him. Disunity comes when we don't ABIDE in HIM. That is not just some fluffly sounding love phrase. Abiding in Him means so many different things, yet it can be fully spoken in 3 words: TRUTH IN LOVE. They must go hand in hand..........this I know. Whereever TRUE unity is not, Truth is missing or Love is missing. Where true unity is----Truth and Love will be found---together, hand in hand. Ah, I'm all "worded out".........Blessings sister. In Him, Cindy

We determine what is our club and then those outside the club become our objects of private ridicule. Sometimes, in public we can do this with "winkie smilies" to one another in that club.Isn't this the heart and core of what we call, "denominationalism"? We separate ourselves from the rest of the body of Christ into our own "fold" and consider our "fold" to be the right one, the most scriptural one, the one which practices this or that thing or holds this or that teaching or follows this or that gifted preacher or teacher?Until we come out of our folds and meet simply as the one "flock" the Lord will not have what He is after."They they may be one... that the world might know that thou hast sent me."To be genuinly "like minded" flows from our fellowship in the "One Spirit' of the One Lord who indwells each and every regenerated child of God. Any other kind of "like mindedness" is a product of our Self, our preferences, our strong opinions, our nationality, our culture, our social status, our traditions, or what have you. The Genuine oneness flows from taking the cross to our natural life, and living by the Life of the One Lord as the One head as the one flock of God.Graftedbranch"

As for my part in the Body, I believe that it is the Lord's desire for me to share what He has shown me, but not to demand that others see it as I do. If what I was shown, whatever the topic or doctrine, is true, fruit will manifest---according to the Lord's timing. Many are threatened by various teachings/beliefs. Why is that? Is not the Lord able to overrule all that is not of Him? Seems to me when fur starts flying in the Body of Christ, that is a sign of a lack of faith that the Holy Spirit is able to do something, and that instead, man MUST protect what he/she perceives to be the truth. Some of the most vicious attacks I've seen come from those who "say" they are honoring God and protecting the Body of Christ. Instead, what I see is that those who are nasty (outright or masking the nastiness with spiritual sounding "words" for another), is a lack of faith and in that FLESH trying to take over and be the Holy Spirit.Cindy, These thoughts hit the nail on the head. (Ouch!)But it is hard to see that in these circumstances we are trying to "protect the Body" for OUR OWN sense of security. Really, it is the pack mentality. That is, I need the pack to "do the right thing" in order for me to feel I can be part of it. Perhaps my manipulation is a way of preserving my sense of self-righteousnes, as my sense of identity comes from the pack rather than my relationship with God. I don't want to be identified as ONE OF a group of "losers". Cindy, it took me years to realize this. In fact, it was the Spirit who revealed it to me. After one particular crisis, in which I was extremely troubled because the pastor was messing things up, I cried out to the Lord, "What am I supposed to do about this?!" He clearly told me that I lacked love, and mostly wanted things to "work right" for MY sake. That was a shocking revelation. This morning I read: "Love is what binds us all together in pefect harmony" Colossians 3:14 The first thought of course is this, But what about those who are acting very immature. How can I ever have harmony with them?" Go back a verse, in vs 13 it says, "You must make allowance for each other's faults and forgive the person who offends you." To be quite honest, I find a GREAT DEAL of what I see going on in our churches very offensive to me, and I know to God also. But he seems to show a lot of patience, and seems to have called me to work with sinners. Of course, through that process I become aware of plenty of my own sins - pride, fear of man, etc. And that is the sin I am responsible for: my own. Diane

As for my part in the Body, I believe that it is the Lord's desire for me to share what He has shown me, but not to demand that others see it as I do. If what I was shown, whatever the topic or doctrine, is true, fruit will manifest---according to the Lord's timing.Cindy, as I read these words a picture comes to my mind: an egg. The potentially life-producing contents of the egg are protected by a fragile outer shell. Eventually, under the right circumstances the new life will produce its own backbone and it will not need that shell anymore. At some point it will become free to fly, produce more life, etc. In our zealous attempts to protect the potentially life-producing contents of humanity we may try so hard making the outer shell, that we fail to see the need for the development of the insides. We think we have a good egg, because it looks good and solid, but the contents may be all shriveled up. That is what happens when we ourselves try to make people change, or make them conform to a good life-style and religious habits. It works for a time. But then if circumstance in life bear down on that shell, it will crack, and the contents would not be able to survive. As long as we have a good outer shell, we may very well be content with that, and feel very righteous and secure. We see a lot of good looking shells, but God knows what's on the inside. He may very well cause trials to come against that shell, and it weakens. What we see doesn't look good - people who don't behave Christian-like, who don't have it all together. But what we don't see is that God is refining the person from the INSIDE. He is developing an INNER back-bone. This takes time - even years. We don't know God's timing. He has a person's entire life to work with, including their circumstances. So, it is our job to be patient. Some day the evidence of the new life within produced by the Holy Spirit will cause the creature to fly, reproduce, endure sufferings, have strong faith etc. Diane

Cindy, it took me years to realize this. In fact, it was the Spirit who revealed it to me. After one particular crisis, in which I was extremely troubled because the pastor was messing things up, I cried out to the Lord, "What am I supposed to do about this?!" He clearly told me that I lacked love, and mostly wanted things to "work right" for MY sake. That was a shocking revelation.Diane, I think alot of what you recently are writing is directed at me, if we are to be honest here. I know you are at odds with what I believe the Lord has shown me and I do understand where you are coming from, but.........and I say this in a Spirit that desires us to walk in TRUE unity because I don't want us to have "bad" feelings towards each other: you are attributing those lessons you learned about YOURSELF and now placing me at the "lower" level of spiritual understanding from which you feel you have come and have now risen above. You may not realize this is what you are doing. It is evident to me in how you responded to my last post---to correct me once again instead of addressing what I wrote. See, the mindset you are attributing to me (not having patience with the state of the Body of Christ) is exactly your mindset TOWARDS me. I believe the Lord has gifted you in the Body to be of great use and I've seen that, but........do you feel that you KNOW what He is using me for and are you having "patience" with that(the working of the Holy Spirit in me) or do you feel you must "hone" me? I think we need to be very careful about making assessments on whether the Lord is using someone or not, unless we see one walking in a clearly wayward way (able to be biblically shown to be in error). In cases where I am being ungodly in my conduct or am teaching/speaking things which are anti-christ/unbiblical, I DO welcome rebuke and correction (by the Word of God). I believe very strongly in the concept of "iron sharpening iron". It is a real necessity in these days of so much false doctrine and to correct the mindsets of "self" that are pervading the Church. Most all of us have thinking that either crept in from worldly sources or from churches which are teaching things that "sound" godly, but are not from Him. We need those things exposed and corrected with the Word of God.As I have stated, I do not believe the Lord called me to MAKE others see what He has shown me, but I do believe that He has called me to share His Word. If my understanding of scripture is incorrect, as I said, I am open to rebuke/correction----line by line teaching is needed in such cases. If it IS correct, then believe the Lord is able to "hone" me in the areas He desires so that I don't walk in the flesh, but by His Spirit as He leads---then fruit for the kingdom will be produced.As has been said, I think quite truly, each of us have different "bents" so to speak, and we must be conscious not to force an attribute that we walk strongly in----which the Lord has given to benefit the Body----upon another, whom the Lord has gifted in another area(s)----also, to benefit and build up the Body of Christ. This is one reason why I love this site so much---there are so many here with differing gifts.....gifts that are intended by the Lord to build up the Body----in knowledge, in love, in grace and mercy, in giving, etc. May He continue to be glorified in each of us as He sees fit and may we all learn to appreciate the differences between us, knowing we are HIS workmanship. Blessings sister. In Him, Cindy

Diane, I think alot of what you recently are writing is directed at me, if we are to be honest here.Hi, Cindy, At the moment I am on the "fly" and can't give your post the just time it deserves. I intend to read through the posts later and see just where I am directing this at you. As far as I am cosciously aware, when I wrote my replies, I was filled with agreement of your words (It was an amen!) - thus I quoted them and expounded on your thoughts. However, you do seem to have some insight that I don't, so do feel free to share further. I alluded to one example, a pastor, because that one popped into my mind. I guess it was branded deeply on my conscience at the time. I need to add a significant aspect of the story: The man was not entirely left off the hook. God opened the door for me to express my concern to him. However, he rejected my words, and covered the truth behind a huge volume of Bible verses which he showered down on me. Unknown to me, others had also confronted him. Within three weeks he resigned and took to his heals. Sadly his life became a mess; he failed in his next church and finally left the pastorate. I wonder where his life would have gone if he had listened to the Body early in his carreer. I did need to become aware of my responsibility to LOVE him - and that included expressing my concerns (a risky thing to do). But it also meant that I had no right to speak badly of him behind his back (a great temptation in view of the situation) There was no need to lose sleep over it. I had to learn that God is fully sufficient for me, inspite of the sins of those whom I fellowship with. He can take care of their sins, and he will in his time. Diane

I think there is a difference between a "pack mentality" and a conciousness of the body of Christ.It is a natural thing to want to be a part of some movement, some enterprise, some great thing. And we find our identity as a "member of the pack'.But this is natural. But the reality of the Body of Christ is a matter of the Spirit. A consciousness that we are baptised in one Spirit into One Body and that we are members of Christ and members one of another is product of the indwelling Spirit within us.And we find our proper relationship in the body of Christ not by looking to the body of Christ but by our relationship to the Head "out from whom the whole body...".The more we experience Christ as the Head, the more we are conciouse that we are members of His body and not individuals living individualistically. We work, we live, we experience Christ as a member of His body and in relationship to the other members of the body. What we do affects the body. We work and live in fellowship with the body.The body of Christ is not a movement, an orginization, or even a group of "like minded" souls. Rather the body of Christ is a living organism, The organism of the Triune God. And God's goal is not just spiritual individuals but rather a corporate expression of Christ the Head lived out in all the members.Graftedbrnach

you are attributing those lessons you learned about YOURSELF and now placing me at the "lower" level of spiritual understanding from which you feel you have come and have now risen above. How do you know the Lord didnt reveal this to her? I get upset when we say : "I'm right your wrong here....or God told ME this" Way to much pride here.

Len Ravenhill said Jesus had favorites...Who? Peter, James, & John. Was this a click?

It is a natural thing to want to be a part of some movement, some enterprise, some great thing. And we find our identity as a "member of the pack'. It would be inappropriate to ridicule the “pack mentality”. After all we were wired to be social creatures and to feel for connectedness. We need to BELONG to some form of social structure –whether it be family, the curling club, church, choir, employment, or some benefit group. Those ways of identifying ourselves become very important to us. It gives us our sense of worth in this world. It is a very costly calling to place our entire sense of identity and worldly worth at the feet of Jesus and become “strangers and aliens” in this world. Our identity with Christ unifies us with an entirely new organism – altogether “other” from this world:The body of Christ is not a movement, an organization, or even a group of "like minded" souls. Rather the body of Christ is a living organism, The organism of the Triune God. And God's goal is not just spiritual individuals but rather a corporate expression of Christ the Head lived out in all the members. I agree. It is not merely about being “like-minded” but being one in a Body whose mind is Christ. And that includes all types of people all over the world. God builds his Church completely differently than we view kingdom building. I have learned to value this kind of connectedness with other believers - many whom I would never have the opportunity to join in a visible religious function. I believe we are also called to live harmoniously in the world to the best of our ability, even though this is not the same kind of unity as the Church (true universal Church, that is) (Be in the world but not of it)How do you know the Lord didn’t reveal this to her? One of the roles of the Spririt is to convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment, so there is no need to question this work in my life. I’m so grateful that he did. It (see earlier post) was such a powerful revelation. I don’t need to explain how he did that, because that is secondary. But, I vividly remember it, and also remember my instinctive response – my heart cry: “God do whatever it takes to make me love the way you want me to.” I meant it with all my heart. That is a very risky and costly prayer, but God knows when we mean it. Not long after that memorable event my life collapsed. Humpty Dumpty (the egg I spoke about) had a great fall. I’ve shared in other threads tiny dribbles of my time with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, combined with other serious issues in my family. It was a time of many deaths. “All the kings horses and all the kings men couldn’t put Humpty together again. I am thankful that even the King of Kings didn’t put me together the way I was, although during the time, I didn’t feel good about my broken condition. When you are on the bottom you sure get lots of “Job’s friends.” And you also realize how often you have been one of Job’s friends in the past. But you also discover the intense beauty of a brand new friend, the Lord himself. And that is where true unity develops - our union with Christ. Diane