So I was curious to see what scriptures people quote who support pre-tribulation rapture. I can't find anything in the bible that supports this theory, but tons of scripture that supports the rapture happening after the tribulation. Let me know what you think
UH OH...here we go ;-) I see it already 15,000 posts. :-P
The tribulation period is what? God's wrath poured out on a sinful world, correct? Before I show you supportive verses for Pre-Trib, can you show me any instances in the Bible that speak about God pouring out His wrath on those who follow Him? (Notice I said "those who follow Him, not "His people"... there is a difference, especially in the OT) 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...Ooops... I just showed you one!Anyway, answer my question first, then I will answer yours.Up until a couple months ago I held a neuteral position on this, but I am now firmly pre-trib.Krispy
I tend to be pre-trib. Why? Well, I don't have the time to go into that right now. However, as a Christian, I would like to think I'm somewhat (at least) in tune with the Spirit.My heart...tells me pre-trib.My Intellect: "whatever-trib"I guess I'm trying to say that whatever happens, I want to be prepared, and know HIM. That's what is important.Mark
Kristy,Is the pretribulation rapture going to be secret (i.e., the world will not see Jesus coming) or will the pretribulation rapture be visible to the world?You are right though, as Christians we are not going to suffer the wrath of God. However, is it possible that God can punish the wicked and shield the righteous at the same time? Didn't he do something similar in Exodus 12? 12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
I guess I'm trying to say that whatever happens, I want to be prepared, and know HIM. That's what is important.My advice to you, if you are unsure, is to prepare for a post-tribulation rapture and pray for a pre-tribulation rapture.
The tribulation period is what? God's wrath poured out on a sinful world, correct? Before I show you supportive verses for Pre-Trib, can you show me any instances in the Bible that speak about God pouring out His wrath on those who follow Him? (Notice I said "those who follow Him, not "His people"... there is a difference, especially in the OT) 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...Those who disbelieve already have the wrath of God on them.He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Why do I quote that? Well does it not mak a case that believers are already on earth side by side with those upon whom God's wrath abides. So if the tribulation is an outpuring of greater wrath on unbelivers there is no logical reason to believe we can't be here at that time. paslm 91 would certainly allow for believers to have all sorts of calamity round about them but not coming upon them.Perhaps there are other reasons to believe that Christians will be removed from the earth before the tribulation. But I don't find that argument convincing in and of itself.
JaySaved.... it's Krispy, not Kristy. Kristy is my wife's name, ironically.Anyway... No, I believe the rapture will be known very well. And I believe that the chaos that ensues will be the catipult that puts the anti-christ into power.If you read the scriptures, there is no way you can be on earth and not be effected by what happens in the tribulation... especially when it comes to buying and selling. Those who refuse the mark will be killed, those who take it will have no way of turning back. Thats plain and simple.Krispy
Sorry about that Krispy. Quick question about what you wrote:If you read the scriptures, there is no way you can be on earth and not be effected by what happens in the tribulation... especially when it comes to buying and selling. Is this God's Wrath or Man's wrath?
Those who disbelieve already have the wrath of God on them.No they dont. Sorry, Taco, but thats bad theology. Read John 3:16. As long as an unbeliever has breath in their body they are not experiencing God's wrath. I believe if you're unsaved and still alive it's because God is being patient with you and doesnt wish to see you perish.God's Word says He wishes none should perish but that all should come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Thats not wrath.God's wrath is death. In the end it is eternal dying and torment in hell, where "the worm dieth not". Unbelievers have it pretty nice right now.Krispy
JaySaved... The tribulation is God's wrath. How could it be man's wrath? Man's wrath against what? Who are we that we should take out our wrath on the world? We're nothing...Krispy
No they dont. Sorry, Taco, but thats bad theology. Yea I guess you are right. john 3:36 is a bit spurious.Sorry about that.
Krispy, you saidIf you read the scriptures, there is no way you can be on earth and not be effected by what happens in the tribulation... especially when it comes to buying and selling. Those who refuse the mark will be killed, those who take it will have no way of turning back. Thats plain and simple. The buying and selling you mentioned is the antichrist and his forces wrath against those who do not accept the mark of the beast. The death from not accepting the mark is punishment the antichrist and his forces inflict...not God.The tribulation is God's wrath. How could it be man's wrath? Man's wrath against what? Who are we that we should take out our wrath on the world? We're nothing...This is my point. The tribulation is God's wrath against sinful man, those who are unbelievers. You believe that since Christians are saved and shall not feel the wrath of God this means we will not be around during the tribulation. However, the 'tribulation' you say will happen to Christians during this period is acutally coming from the antichrist and his followers...not God.God's wrath is not upon Christians during the tribulation, we are protected from that...however we still have to deal with the fores of evil in this world. Quick question: Would God ever allow wicked man to hurt a Christian?
The buying and selling you mentioned is the antichrist and his forces wrath against those who do not accept the mark of the beast.The fact that there are "those who do not accept the mark" seems to suggest that there are those who are following God at this time. Again this whould seem to knock Krispy's premise that God won't pour out his wrath on the earth at the same time as those who follow him are there. it matters little if you call them "tribulation saints". If this is the wrath of God - and these people are followers of the will of God how can Krispy's argument stand?
I would really like to see a good peaceful discussion on this subject. This is something that I have been questioning and would like to hear both sides of the debate.One thing I have always thought about God's wrath though is that His wrath is not the tribulation but rather God's wrath is the final judgment of unbelievers. His wrath is eternal damnation is what I have always thought.Is that not true?Mike
Yea I guess you are right. john 3:36 is a bit spurious.Read John 3:36, Taco:Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Future tense. Shall not see... means in the future. I suppose one could argue the line right after that, but if God's wrath abides on the unbeliever, then the unbeliever can shake it off... by believing.Krispy
One thing I have always thought about God's wrath though is that His wrath is not the tribulation but rather God's wrath is the final judgment of unbelievers. His wrath is eternal damnation is what I have always thought.I tend to agree with that. I do see God's wrath aginst unbelievers during the tribulation and afterwards on the day of judgement. I also agree that this needs to be a peaceful discussion. We can all disagree on this topic and all go to heaven. When we get there we will ask Jesus who was right and who was wrong.I believe in a post-tribulation rapture. I have believed this for about 3 months now. I spent 20+ years on the pre-trib side and a part of me wishes they were right...because I don't want to go through the tribulation period at all...however I do want to be faithful to the word of God.In my study, I see no evidence of 'two' events in which Christ returns to the earth. There is a Second Coming of Christ...not a Third.
WOW!! Page 2 in about an hour... :-o I think everyone is just waiting for the next post ;-)
but if God's wrath abides on the unbeliever, then the unbeliever can shake it off... by believing.Absolutley I have done that myself :-) You are missing my main point however.(Abideth is present tense by the way)
Again this whould seem to knock Krispy's premise that God won't pour out his wrath on the earth at the same time as those who follow him are there. it matters little if you call them "tribulation saintsIf God cannot pour out his wrath on the earth at the same time as those who follow him are there...then that means one of two things:1) God will never pour out his wrath on the world2) There will be no such thing as a 'tribulation saint'I think we can all agree that both options are impossible and unbiblicalSo, what makes us Christians in this present age of grace immune to tribulation and why aren't the 'tribulation saints' as fortunate?
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