Too many of ya'll want to be like Wesley, and Finney, and Ravenhill, etc...As Ravenhill said, their Bible was not any thicker than ours is!Everything naturally in these men was wickedness-- anything good in them is Christ.You don't want to be like Wesley, you don't want to be like Finney, you don't want to be like Ravenhill! You want to be like CHRIST.God bless you.
Wow...this makes sense! People look..here is a believer who knows what he's talking about! The same God who was in the greats, is in you! There is no one else like you, you are unique. Go out into the big wonderful world and RAISE HELL(TO POPULATE HEAVEN-WE DONT HAVE MUCH MORE TIME). WAAAAAAAKE UUUUUUP CCCCCHURCHHHHHHH!
The ultimate truth, of course, is that we would be like Christ. I have admired men such as Wesley, Finney, Ravenhill, etc. insomuch as I have seen Jesus. I do want to be provoked to "love and good works" by their godly example as God indwelled them and shined from them. My expectations of what God can do have been stretched, and I have a larger cup for God's grace to flow into my life because of seeing what God's grace did in their lives.Have you ever noticed Jesus' last "I AM" statement in the Bible? He said, "I am the Bright and Morning Star" (Rev. 22:16). The morning star in nature is that one star that rises in the east at dawn, and as the day dawns, the morning star gets brighter and brighter, and every other star gets dimmer and dimmer. By the time the sun appears, the morning star is the only visible star in the sky. That's Jesus. Peter in his second epistle related Jesus as a morning star back to the Mount of Transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah were those disappearing stars. The Holy Spirit has come to reveal Christ to us from these men. So we don't study Moses to see Moses or Elijah to see Elijah. There is certainly value to do so, but there is a more excellent way if we can see past them to our Lord Himself. If we depend upon the Holy Spirit to show me Jesus through these men as looking-glasses, I will see Him. One day, all the Church of Jesus Christ will be a looking-glass for the Lamb. Revelations says she will be as clear as a jasper stone (like a crystal) in which Christ's light will be unhindered. So Christ is seen in the Bible; He is also seen in His Church, and will be gloriously displayed through His people for all eternity. He is preeminent One to whom all creation bows. What has blessed me is to use the Welseys, the Whitefields, the Ravenhills as a looking-glass to see Jesus. I don't throw the looking-glass away, I just make sure am I focusing upon the right Object--Jesus, the Bright and Morning Star. It sounds like that is what you are saying, but I wanted to add this to balance it out.
Too many of ya'll want to be like Wesley, and Finney, and Ravenhill, etc...Could you explain precisely how you feel this is happening? Is this a bad thing or a good thing?Why? In what way? If bad, what should be done about it? Diane
roadsign wrote:
I've been meditating on your questions the last day...I think one of the main reasons people want to be like these "spiritual giants" is because these were VERY controversial people.They were extremely outspoken, riots arose from them, they were often the center of attention. This is not to downplay the role of Wesley and all the greats, they certainly were godly men who were used mightily by God!But oh what a temptation it is, to want to be dogmatic... extreme, the center of attention-- to want to stand up in the streets and get an angry mob!Besides, who wants to go serve the sinners and whores when you can have all this attention? Who wants to do the things that nobody except God will see? We must lose the fear of being forgotten by men.Everyone notices an outspoken man in the streets declaring everyones sins to them and the need for repentance-- shouting on loudspeakers and holding controversial signs. But who will notice somebody who touches modern day lepers and washes the feet of fishermen?Is this a bad thing or a good thing?Why? In what way?If bad, what should be done about it? DianeWe have Christ as our example to follow. Must we focus on anyone else?Certainly "God works with different people in different ways". Some of us are prophets, some pastors, some teachers, etc...And certainly some must be able to say, "follow me as I follow Christ" like Paul did. But most of us are not able to say this. And I doubt Ravenhill would ever say such a thing. Yet some of us here are following Ravenhill as if ol' Len was Christ!We must be careful, not to spend more time listening to Leonard Ravenhill and reading John Wesley than we spend reading God's holy Word and praying, fellowshipping with our Lord!Are we in danger of losing Christ amidst the Christ centered words of men like Ravenhill? May this never be! But I suspect it is happening. Oh it is so much more convenient to sit around and listen to Len preach and say, "Amen!"-- than it is to go into the closet and read the Word and pray for 6 hours.All of this focus on John Wesley, Ravenhill and these giants is unhealthy. Many of us are turning into Ravenhill parots. We should focus on Jesus, being conformed to Him!Now, I must balance my words to avoid conflicts. I am not against Ravenhill, Wesley, Finney, Spurgeon, Tozer, Booth, etc... I greatly admire them, and am not condemning their actions at all! As I already said these godly men were greatly used by God in their time! Their writings and audio teachings are extremely valuable to us and we should prayerfully consider their words, but may we never forget where they got this power and wisdom-- JESUS CHRIST.I challenge anyone here to spend as much time that you spend listening to the audio sermons here and reading articles... to spend an equal if not greater time in solitude learning from our Lord Jesus in prayer, meditation, and study of the living Word of God.I may have tipped over some sacred cows here. However, it is because of love for the brothers and sisters here, and I am tipping them as gently and respectful as possible.Blessings,AdamToo many of ya'll want to be like Wesley, and Finney, and Ravenhill, etc...Could you explain precisely how you feel this is happening?
Thanks Chuck. I am going to spend some time thinking about this.
Combat_Chuck wrote:Too many of ya'll want to be like Wesley, and Finney, and Ravenhill, etc...Amen! Amen! and another Amen! Brother,I wished I could get away with a statement like that without being personally slammed for my opinions, I just learned to keep most of my opinions to myself now. :-)
Hi eveyrone. If I could just slip this verse in here, I think it speaks to what brother Adam is talking about.This is from Jeremiah 45 and in the context it is pretty amazing considering Baruch's confession in verse 3And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not...An article by J.C. Philpot deals with this textLife given for a preyhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&;aid=2745
Ahh, is that a speck in your eye? I do spend more time in the word and in prayer then on this site and I don't need you to tell me how to be Christ-like, kind of a catch twenty-two isn't it?I find my time to be more productively spent for the Kingdom of God in building people up rather then castigating them for educating themselves. That's just me, though. Doesn't it say something about vain and useless wranglings and that Almighty God alone is fit to judge the hearts of others? What is spoken in darkness will not be hidden for all things will come to light and any time whatsoever spent in the pursuit of godliness will bear fruit for all to see so why worry over how other people's hearts draw near to Jesus? My prayers are with each and every one of you, that you hear the Shepherd's voice clearly and if the Holy Spirit shines through the words of men and women of God, without the dullness of passing time, then the truth will not fade either.His Rich
relewis111 wrote: My prayers are with each and every one of you Rich Thanks Rich.
You’ve shared a lot of insightful thoughts, Combat_Chuck. Many thanks for answering my questions. I think one of the main reasons people want to be like these "spiritual giants" is because these were VERY controversial people. No and yes. For many who have begun to see that the religious system is not as wonderful as they hoped, who have been wounded in the system, who have endured the pain of rejection for wishing to expose the truth, it is a comfort to hear someone who has already been there and understands what is going on. There is a certain level of fellowship in the like-mindedness. The journey is not as lonely. On the other hand, yes, we could start to live out our frustrations and anger vicariously through these men. It can be an escape from our own spiritual journey with Christ.Or we could choose to live in a passive existence – dreaming of the big day (revival). Perhaps this is the risk of giving these giants “front page” exposure. But I ask, is it not worth the risk? For surely there will always be a certain percentage who will respond in a spiritually mature way, while, as is typical, there are the masses who just go for the ride and the thrill of the “Christian” adventure. They were extremely outspoken, riots arose from them, they were often the center of attention. This is not to downplay the role of Wesley and all the greats, they certainly were godly men who were used mightily by God! We can’t deny that within each of us there is a (perhaps latent) craving for adventure, power, recognition, fame, significance, and religious thrill. So, yes, we could at some point latch on to these men to carry us along in our inner urges, and give us a sense of satisfaction. But oh what a temptation it is, to want to be dogmatic... extreme, the center of attention-- to want to stand up in the streets and get an angry mob! Have you noticed that followers of a particular movement or individual become dogmatic. Their vision is second-hand. But, the difference between the authentic and the second-hand may be hard to discern. Besides, who wants to go serve the sinners and whores when you can have all this attention? Who wants to do the things that nobody except God will see? We must lose the fear of being forgotten by men. We don’t see what shaped the man behind the scenes, we don’t understand his private life – which may very well have included these humble activities. We only see them in the ‘lime light”. That’s the way we typically view all “celebrities” – it is our mindset, perpetuated by TV and our religious habits (the up-front personality, the pulpit etc)Everyone notices an outspoken man in the streets declaring everyone’s sins to them and the need for repentance-- shouting on loudspeakers and holding controversial signs. But who will notice somebody who touches modern day lepers and washes the feet of fishermen? Likely the greatest work done for the kingdom will never be disclosed, No book will be written about it, the names will never be known – except in heaven. are we in danger of losing Christ amidst the Christ centered words of men like Ravenhill? May this never be! But I suspect it is happening. Oh it is so much more convenient to sit around and listen to Len preach and say, "Amen!"-- than it is to go into the closet and read the Word and pray for 6 hours . Hasn’t it always been like this? Even in Jesus’ day. People followed Jesus around too, but when the cost got too much, they were gone. Our arm-chair “Amens” won’t hold us up during trials. All of this focus on John Wesley, Ravenhill and these giants is unhealthy. Many of us are turning into Ravenhill parots. Well, there are always a few of these – those who announce their presence to SI by giving us all a proper “chewing out” But, give it time; let God work in them, and they will mellow out. We should focus on Jesus, being conformed to Him! Of course – but the path there is through a lot of wrestling – and, as you no doubt agree, that may include learning about the lives of others – including these giants. Ultimately, our Christlikeness will be the strongest, loudest, and most-effective message we preach. Diane
Roadsign, you are like my better half or something... You make my words make a lot more sense.I'm trackin' with ya... and thanks for sharing! :-)Adam
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