Do we deserve love or wrath?

When i first ran across bro Joel on Christian TV (prior to their buying the Compaq Center) i liked him a lot ... i thought he was personable and came across as extremely likable, and had a sort of Billy Graham type quality of sincerity and simplicity in his messages ... i really liked that he seemed to be more of a teacher whose messages were geared toward practical application of Christian principals to everyday life ... i also liked the fact that he wasn't a screaming, sweating type, preacher which i pretty much don't enjoy and have for years wondered why our Lord would send me to a Pentecostal church shortly after my own salvation experience (but that's a whole nuther story) ... i still think primarily the same things about bro Joel as before, but have a hard time swallowing their buying of the Compaq Center with all the $$$ it cost to purchase, refurbish and run such a huge place ... i always think when i run across his programs now about what better uses could such large sums of $$$ have been used for toward missions and charity ... i heard a pretty good sermon by bro Joel the other nite entitled "Staying on the Potter's Wheel", it actually blessed me in it's message ... But the whole time i was listening i found myself instead of hearing it unencumbered, wondering how much it cost just to keep that big globe in back of him spinning and how many poor folk it would feed in Appalachia or Africa ... And lately i also have to admit that in some of bro Joel's secular interviews he does skirt the major moral issues of today by being politically correct ... If that was John the Baptist, or Jesus, modus-operendi John would have never been instrumental in making straight the way of the Lord, nor would Jesus have been crucified ... Also i don't need a "joke" to start a sermon off, what i need as a believer is a "jolt" - preferably a convicting one that ever keeps me in line with the Word, will and way of God ...i've been told that i'm critical, judgmental and legalistic regarding matters like this, especially the ridiculous amounts of $$$ so many ministries spend today on luxuries that are touted as "blessings from the Lord" ... If i'm wrong in my thinking toward bro Joel, or any other mega church leading pastor, then i pray our Lord will forgive me and correct me by making it plain that He approves of it ... But somehow the outrageous "bling-bling" that accompanies so many big ministries today i see as "empire building" and not "Kingdom building" and it just turns me totally off, especially when it stumbles believers toward thinking that "Godliness is gain", and unbelievers to the point of where it's hard for we everyday saints to witness to them because of the over extravagance they see represented on TV (or in local churches) as Christianity ...i remember once flicking thru the channels and coming across TD Jakes who in the midst of his sermon said that he didn't care what others thought of him in the midst of God's material blessings on him ... Well in light of Rom.14:21 i don't feel that way, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak"... i feel that first off if our Lord blesses any of us with abundance it's certainly not so that we can ostentatiously show it off like the world by having the biggest and most expensive of whatever, but so that we can quietly and discreetly be of aid to our fellow saints/man who are in physical need ... PS - i believe prior to salvation we all deserve God's wrath, but the mere fact that He loved us to the point of sending Christ to die for us attests to a love so great that it's just mind blowing in the providing ... i also believe we believers (particularly here in America) are deserving of His wrath now for the circus we've pretty much turned Christianity into, but bless Him that He yet still loves us to disciplining us back into line ... His love is all encompassing and overflowing ...

hi, i think you should notbe so vocal in your criticizm of joel osteen(wolf in sheeps clothing).he might not be the evangelistic leader you would want as your pastor,but he does love the Lord Jesus and is a saved man.his dad was a great preacher who built a great church who died;thrusting joel into the responsibility of pastoring unexpectedly.how would you do if you had to pastor over 10000 people with little or no training.we are way to harsh in our criticizm of others who acheive but make many mistakes along the way, while we have yet to acheive.jimp ps this has always been a church that gives huge amounts to missions.

:-)I heard his mother share a testimony once, that she was diagnosed with a brian tumor. She being a women of faith began to memorize scriptures on healing so much so that if she looked at the clock and the time reminded her of a scriputre she would immediately quote the verse that came to mind. It had been 10 years since she was diagnosed and she was still alive.

Do we deserve love or wrath? Wrath. Does anyone deserves God's grace?As to Joel Olsteen, I went through a short season where I watched his show after I had began to follow Jesus, after spending much of my adult life in sin and utter rebellion and far from Jesus. The Lord allowed it to continue for only a short time and what I discovered in retrospect was that many of his teachings would be considered new-age or at a minimum self-help. I spent literally thousands of dollars on such books and the primary difference here is that the same principles are covered over by a religious veneer. They're simply self-help messages under the guise of Christian principles. It's the cotton candy Jesus, that's not really Jesus at all. There is a real fixation on self-improvement and you won't hear much talk about repentance, about denying yourself or taking up your cross and following Jesus. I just took a look on the website and here's four of the sermons I saw: "Keeping Yourself Happy," "Be the Individual God Meant You to Be," "Feeling Good about Yourself," and "Improving Your Self Image With Your Words." I bought many books that dealt with such things and none of them ever took me to the cross or brought me to Jesus. They never exposed or confronted my sin in any way but simply tickled my ears.I'm not beating up on this man but we're called to check out the fruit and that applies to me as well. The cross-driven life is about what Jesus wants to do in our hearts not how He can improve our life.

(Literally) It’s the cotton candy Jesus, that’s not really Jesus at all!What does this mean, I’ve heard it before? Jesus walked in love, joy, humbleness, meekness, and he had self-control.Sure, there was time in the temple where he had to display his wrath. I’m sure that when speaking in authority his spirit appeared aggressive. Yet, he knew how to balance the fruits of the Spirit. This does not make him Cotton Candy at all. “Be the individual God meant you to be” reminds me of a book I picked up yesterday and was waiting on the Lord, for confirmation if I should read it or not. The book was by Myles Monroe – Understanding your Potential. It’s still in my car, and I’m still waiting on the Lord.The Spirit of God led me instead to the book of Corinthians where God began to speak to me about Spiritual Gifts. 1 Corinthian 12: 4 as follows(4) There are different kinds of gifts, but they are all from the same Spirit.(5) There are different ways to serve but the same Lord to serve.(6) And there are different ways that God works through people but the same God. God works in all of us in everything we do.(7) Something from the scripture can be seen in each person, for the common good.(8) The Spirit gives one person the ability to speak with Wisdom, and the same Spirit gives another the ability to speak with knowledge. (9) The same Spirit gives Faith to one person. And, to another that One Spirit gives gifts of healing.(10) The Spirit gives to another person the Power to do miracles, to another the ability to Prophecy. And he gives to another the ability to know the difference between good and evil. The Spirit gives one Person the ability to speak in different kinds of languages, and to another the ability to interpret those languages.(11) One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things and the Spirit decides what to give to each person.Verse (6) And there are different ways that God works through people but the same God. God works in all of us in everything we do. This is what Gods word says. The word of God also speaks about the gift of Encouragement, which is what I’ve discern that Joel Osteen has the gift of Encouragement. It is the spirit of God that works in us both to will and to do. If the Spirit of God is leading him in this way, then Praise the Lord. You can see his fruits and his reward is in heaven.We can be so Judge mental but do we know what the people that are being led by his Spirit to this church are going through? No! we don’t but God does, and God will by his spirit and in his time reveal every ones sin. Joel Osteen is doing what God has called him to do. - :-)

bro Jimpi don't think bro Jordan was being harsh when he called joel osteen a wolf in sheep's clothing. there are many such preachers out there and bro jordan was just calling a spade a spade. the Lord is going to judge pastors and teachers that much more harshly because they are given the task of teaching the people the word of God and when crucial things such as the cross, repentance the cost of discipleship, death of self and so on are not taught, the people live in ignorance and are not driven to grow in Christ. This sort of thing is not preached often because it is not popular and then when it is, the preachers are seen as being over the top...Christianity is not for the faint of heart.God the Father thought the matter of our salvation to be of such gravity that nothing short of the blood of Christ could secure it and as a result we have to get with the program. there is much self help being taught and bro osteen does preach a lot of that but the thing is that stuff is ok for the heathen but it is not effective for growth in Christ. growth in Christ is not a thing where we can gradually progress to a fullness in Christ of our own strength but it requires the death of self, not the bettering of self because God doesn't want anything of the old man unless it's dead, sacrificed on His altar. the growth in Christ and maturation of the saint in Christ costs nothing less than the death of self. that's where my spirit is grieved when i listen to much of what is taught by bro osteen. on the other hand though as bro rahman said, he has been blessed by some of bro osteen's messages and this speaks to the need for us to test the word we receive from the preachers against God and see what of it we should keep and what to discard. we must be dilligent in this regard for there are many diamonds in the mire and muck if we would only dig for them.also we must keep in mind that the Lord is going to try all the things we do by His fire and so we must not be goofing off about the faith for there will really be hell to pay. God is going to be much stricter in His judgement than we are so if we can't even be honest enough to call out weak preaching when we see it, how then shall we stand when we have to give an accounting for our lives?as for the expression "cotton candy Christ" that speaks to a false representation of Christ in which He is painted as something more desireable to us (an idol by the way) than what He truly is. Christ called sin out when He saw it, the pharisees were called whitewashed tombs, that was about as deep an unsult as you can be called in hebrew...Christ didn't end up on the cross coz He was nice to people, He ended up there coz He ticked a lot of people off when He preached the word of God because the word of God is offensive.i don't doubt the man is saved nor that they give millions to missions, these are good things i suppose but i'm wary of the gospel he preaches. like paul said, if anyone preaches any other gospel than what we have taught you, even if it be an angel from heaven, let him be accursed!

IRONMAN wrote:i don't think bro Jordan was being harsh when he called joel osteen a wolf in sheep's clothing. We all may fit that description to a lot of folks, but I will let God be the judge.

bro BillWe all may fit that description to a lot of folks, but I will let God be the judge.if we see something which grieves our spirit occuring or being said or done by someone should we keep silent? of course not we should speak out as the Lord leads. i know he's your pastor bro but i can't agree with a lot of what he preaches because it simply is of little or no use for those seeking to grow in Christ. if someone calls you or me a wolf in sheep's clothing then we had better examine ourselves closely to see if this is so and repent before God. bro the Church right now is in a ragged state and the Lord is not coming back for a raggedy bride, we are about to get cleaned up...and it will be painful and if the saints are not aware of the coming of the refiner's fire or that the Lord holds us to a much higher standard than the heathen such that we need purification, then we're in trouble. when the purification comes, many saints will not be able to stand the heat. we can't be so lax about the faith brethren! God the Father sent His son to die for us to be saved and we just accept any old gospel, we don't test the words we hear, we're afraid to call sin out, afraid to call weak preaching out, we're afraid to offend anyone or step on toes, we're punking out and Christianity ain't no punk. we're laughed at partly because it is our lot but also because we are so weak and don't contend for the faith. Christ stepped on toes (it got Him killed), Peter stepped on toes, Paul did, matter of fact Christianity is an offensive religion because the word of God is offensive and as a result the world tried to stamp the faith out by all manner of violence! we need to get a backbone and do the things we should do even if it offends. maybe some may think i'm kinda over the top and you know what, i am. this is because the Lord has placed a jealousy in me for the things of Him and i feel and see how urgent it is that we repent. the Lord's burden on me is heavy concerning this but the thing is most people aren't concerned and it grieves me to no end and it grieves the Lord even more!bro if you want to sit on your hands it's cool, but the Lord will surely ask you and will ask me on that day "so what did you do with your life?" i'm not about to be caught with my pants down that day for slacking...

in truth brethren, we deserve hell and damnation. however because of God's own grace and mercy we are spared this aweful fate by the blood of Jesus. i wish we could all come to the understanding of the gravity of that. if we did, we wouldn't be so lax about the Faith. oh that the Lord would bring us to a place wherein He shows us for the wretched, unclean, unholy people we are and leave us broken. oh that we could behold His holiness and look upon our own unrighteousness and be shamed and grieved and then be set ablaze for Him on account of His great love and mercy.i tell you if we had such an encounter with God we would never be the same, we would not be so lax as to allow such foolishness as self-help, and self this and that pass off as Christianity. Help us Lord!AMEN.

(Literally) It’s the cotton candy Jesus, that’s not really Jesus at all! What does this mean, I’ve heard it before?The cotton candy Jesus requires no repentance, no dying to self, no following after Jesus, no counting the costs but rather panders to my flesh to where the question becomes "How Can God Improve My Life" in some tangible way. So the messages focus on improving our lives, rather than simply following Jesus and submitting and doing what He wants.This isn't the Biblical Jesus at all my friend. He's not out to improve your life or mine but is calling us to simply follow Him. So we have created another Jesus that simply caters to our flesh. Help me cope with my kids, family, finances, etc. rather than to die at the cross. If I've truly given myself over to Jesus, it's about what we wants to do in my life and my life is no longer separate from his. It's now His life living in me. I don't own things because they're now His.I would encourage you to listen to "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" which is one of the best sermons ever preached on humanism. What is humanism you may ask. Here's the definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason.It's going to cost you everything to follow Jesus. All of your sin, all of your time, etc. because you've been bought at a high price that cost Jesus his life. Believe me Jesus wants it all and in love and kindness He will go after every area of your life until it's all surrendered to Him. That's what is presently happening in my life and I just thank Jesus for what He is doing.I would encourage to listen to a sermon entitled "Escaping the Theology of Babylon" by Pastor Carter Conlon from December 2005 which is available here World Challenge OnlineI believe there was another sermon by either Pastor Carter or David Wilkerson entitled "Another Jesus" but I couldn't locate it.Blessings to you in the precious name of Jesus...

hi, u like the spirit this has been presented in. i am a Jesus man and would not follow anyone accross the street if he had no nail prints. i find it hard to defend joel's gospel but i would find it harder to criicize. sometimes a pastor has to tell the congregation how to pay bills or how to take care of job responsibilities or how to rear children etc. it is important to be successful in life because you can't give what you don't have.Jesus came that we would have life and that abundantly. paul knew how to be abase and abound.me too. i like abound better.jimp :-P :-P sheperds do not beget sheep but healthy speep beget sheep.

But what if you experienced abase?I believe that when Paul quoted that scripture, he was speaking from his life experience. Paul knew how to live with plenty and he knew how to live with lack. I speak from my personal experience I have experience abundance (Hyde Park), and I have experience lack, it makes no difference to me now, when I have it I give it away and I love to do that, it is better to give then to receive. And I have experience lack, I’ve struggled, but God will never give you more then you can handle. I thank him for life’s experiences, because I can relate to certain situations, and I am able to say I’ve been there. I knew a Very Anointed Preacher who shared a testimony I will never forget. She mentioned sitting in her kitchen floor, writing songs to God. God blessed her with a mansion fully furnished and then God asked her for it, and she freely gave it up.You see He is Able to Do Exceedingly and Abundantly all that we ask or even think off, he is able. Sure you love him because you have and you may have much, but will you still love him if you didn’t? Do not answer this unless you are truly honest with yourself.Think about it, Jesus was rich, yet he made himself poor  I believe that you must be content in every situation in life.

hi, i have been saved for 42 yrs and have been homeless and sick and blessed aqll at the same time. i now live in a dorm room and drive a 84 volvo. i have seldom been more blessed. jimp

JimP, You forgot to metion that you have me for a brother and close friend. I'm crushed! Just kidding man of God. I do hope all is well with you.Immersed in Him,Onesimus4u

Wow, jimp. I just started reading through this column, and came across your post. I've got to say that I completely disagree with you on several points. And not just you, so don't think this is for you alone, but to those who would back up Mr. Osteen.To begin with, it's our duty as Christians to keep a look out for the wolves in sheeps clothing. We don't like to send insults, but if that's how they come across, it doesn't make them any less true. Paul, in Phillipians (3:2), calls those who teach a perverted message "dogs". This, if anything, would be called an insult. To the Jews, that's about as low as it gets. And frankly, I agree with Paul. To those who would pervert and twist the Gospel, they should be know as dogs, not fit to teach.On the note of Joel's situation, being "thrust into the responsibility of pastoring a church", I again completely disagree with that entire situation. Being a pastor is an incredible resposibility. On the voice and teachings of one man hang the views and beliefs of his followers. That's why its so important to keep a watch out for the "wolves in sheeps clothing." Joel has started to attend seminary, but dropped out. In my opinion, he shouldn't have taken over the church. We don't pick leaders based on lineage. Now, I won't say that a person isn't qualified simply because he hasn't gone to seminary. I know people who aren't legal adults who are more qualified to lead a church than some trained pastors I've met. But if Joel was "thrust into...", implying he wasn't prepared, or whatever, then he shouldn't have been in that position.The first time I read the name "Joel Osteen" was when I came across his book, "Your best life now". I don't think I should have to go into detail on this one. I haven't read it, but from what I understand, it means what it says. His focus, not only in that book, but in his teaching, is that "God wants you to be happy, here's how to get it." Robert Schuler, Joel Osteen... They're not preaching the Bible, they're teaching a huministic contortion of a self-centered belief, and twisting scripture to match.This, as Paul made a point to do also, needs to be shown for what it is. How many go to lakewood? How many sit in church every week to believe a false message? Joel seems to teach a popular message here in the U.S. It's sad but true. I can see why he's so popular. This watered-down message sounds good. People don't like to hear of their deserved condemnation. People don't like to fear the Lord. Lukewarm is comfortable.Now, I haven't read through all of the postings in this column yet, but I'm sure there's one or two telling us not to gossip. Well, we're not. I wouldn't write anything that I wouldn't want seen and know publicly. And it's not slander unless it's not true. It really is a hard, fine line to be able to "judge a righteous judgment", but it's so necessary.

bro GrohFrogyea and amen, like Paul said, whoever preaches to you any other gospel other than what we have preach to you, let him be accursed!

hi,i am not defending joel, but not criticizing him.paul was responsible for the sheep in phillipi,they were the fruit of his labors and he had every right to be protective of them. we have a right to completely disagree with joel and withhold any support we might give but to judge the man a dog or a wolf(krino)is saying that God is not doing a nery good job in his life and we probably could do better.but, what have we done? people who do much make many mistakes along the way. let us pray that God uses joel in a greater way in the future now that he has fame and thus the responsibility of that fame.i am not a joel man,i am a jesus man but i am responsible primarily for my action only.jimp