penal substitution & steve chalke

He could forgive based upon what was in His mind from the beginning and knew would happen.His substitutionary death was always in His mind and factored in pre-Calvary to folks being forgiven from the beginning of creation.Yes. Philologos gives the illustration of when his children were kids they went to a place that required tickets, equipped with a turn style and a ticket taker. The children were allowed to go on through the gate because the teller saw the man coming with the money in his hand. And this is how God forgave the saints before the cross, God could see the Man coming with the money in His hand (as it were).

God is %100 just and %100 love.HE must judge sin and HE must forgive because of HIS great love.Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calles those things which be not as though they were.This last part of the verse makes it possible for God to say this:Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.To understand how the sacrifice of Jesus satisfies God, we must know what God says.God uses His law of death on the account of sin to implement the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. God says, in Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.andDeut. 21:23 His body shall not remain overnight on the tree (cross), but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who hangs on a tree is accursed of God.Jesus was taken off the cross that same day He died so the curse of sin would stay on Him.But, How does Jesus' death pay for all the sins of the world now and through out history?These next verses explain how:Lev.17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the alter to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.The cross of Jesus is that alter.Hebrews. 9:22 for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sinWhen Jesus shed His blood on the cross which is Gods’ alter, God accepted His sacrifice.In verification of Gods' acceptance, (that which makes it valid) He raised Jesus from the dead. The resurrection is the basis of our Faith1Corinth 15:14 and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.Why Jesus and not the sinner?God lets there be a proxy (replacement for you & I) to take the judgment, but the proxy must not be guilty like the one accused or he would be taking the judgment for himself and not for us. So then the only person who could be with out the judgment of sin must not be from the corrupted bloodline of Adam.This is where the seed of the woman comes in. In the bible, the seed is always from the man, The Hebrew word for seed is zera` {zeh'-rah} it can mean, semen virile (sperm), offspring, descendants, posterity, or children. The man would plant his seed into the woman.God said in Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Notice the term her seed.Mary was the mother of Jesus but Joseph, Mary's husband, wasn't the father of Jesus. Jesus was not from a seed of a man but conceived by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is sinless; therefore He can take our place of judgment.

prayerbone wrote:hi annie,if ive got you right ur saying Jesus could forgive them pre cross because he knew the cross was coming? but doesnt a person need to believe in the cross to be forgiven?? it strikes me the people forgiven (pre cross) just needed to believe in Jesus and not the cross at all,after all they wouldnt even be aware of it..andyGalatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.The gospel was preached back then also.Job 9:32-35 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.:33 there is no mediator between us, who might lay his hand on both of us.:34 Let him take away his rod from me and not send his fear on me::35 Then I'd speak up and state my case boldly. As things stand, there is no way I can do it.Job knew He needed a mediator and He knew that He would be saved.Job 19:25-27 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth::26 And after my skin, even this body, is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God; :27 Whom I, even I, shall see, on my side, And mine eyes shall behold, and not as a stranger. My heart is consumed within me.

There still remains one problem with man and God, when it comes to forgiveness. Man must believe that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God. That is why the Law cannot save, it had no provision for man by the shedding of blood of animals, only Christs' Cross and His Blood has the power to save. If Christ being our sacrifice and the earth at the Cross the altar, then it is a sure thing that the mystery that Paul is speaking about, was not understood, until it was revealed to Paul. That mystery being Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Yes Jesus had the power to forgive sin before the Cross, but the forgiveness depended on The Law and the doing of the Law before the Cross. Forgiveness of sin has always been in Christ. The implementation of the forgiveness depended on obedience to God. Since the Cross, Faith has been the implement that forgives sin and starts the process of salvation.Yes faith was always there, but no one knew that that Faith would birth a new life in them by the Seed of Christ, and could not be accomplished because the Seed, Christ Himself had not been offered on the altar for sin. I can see a bird fly and say I have the bird, but until I have the bird is in hand and he wants to stay, the bird is not mine. The same thing by the Cross, I can see the Seed of the woman but if I don't have it in hand or as we know now, it is Spirit that the Seed must be planted in to give new birth. The body and soul follow the new birth by the Seed that is now available by act on the Cross that makes death with Christ available and resurrection unto new life with Christ the means by which we are saved.Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Salvation in the Old Testament was by the obedience to the Law. God wanted it to be obedience because of Love, which takes faith that the Law could not produce. There is only one act of Love that will produce love, that is the Cross. That is what God wants, Love. He wants us to love Him, but we could not, so He produced in us the capacity for Love and that Love is the Christ that is Born again in us. The Cross is the only Place This Love can be obtained. It takes only to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and He is now come in Flesh, on the Cross and now by Birth at the moment we believe, Jesus Christ, Born Again in the believer and a new creature in Christ Jesus our Lord.Those in the Old Testament could not be born again, for the Seed has not been sacrificed and risen and returned in the believer. That could only happen after the Cross. Those in the Old Testament will on this earth in the millineal reign of Christ on David's Throne, will receive the earthly and Kingdom promises Abraham receiver and all other prophesies received for the earthly Kingdom promised.The Born Again are already receiving the New Covenant, we are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus and with Him. Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,He will come and receive unto Himself those that are in Him. Those that are in Christ by birthing and it only takes, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead (((in Christ))) shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (((and so shall we ever be with the Lord.))) Wherefore comfort one another with these words. CHRIST ONESIN Christ: Phillip

I believe that you must also understand, that while the blood justifies (Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.) The blood did nothing to the sinner himself, and you cannot separate the two.So in the cross God did away with the criminal, rebellious man (Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed).Also consider this verse Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:Why a body? Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.You see the cross is not just for forgiveness, but it is also for eradication. The ressurection then in turn is the way of new life.Just some thoughts. :-)

Yes, all is in Him, first the enmity, then birth, then the offering of the Kingdom to Israel, then rejection, then the Cross, a dead head on dead shoulders and every drop of blood on the alter of this world, then Seed planted in the ground, Jesus first fruit of the Seed Planted come forth in resurrection, then His appearing to many, then Assention, Then His return in the new life of believers, now preparing a place for those in Christ. He is all of this and much, much more. Ten short verses, Wow. Ephesians 1:10-20 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, (((who first trusted in Christ.))) (((In Whom ye also trusted,))) (This is the Christ of Christ) after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom(((also))) after that ye believed, ("Were Born Again," "Christ in us the Hope of Glory") ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to ((us-ward who believe,)) according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,Plus one. Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:We now have the Christ in us, Sealed by the Holy Spirit in us also, and God the Father making Their Abode with us. We truly are a new creature by a new covenant. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.May we all do the same as Paul, "according to Jesus Christ working, which works in us mightily."In Christ: Phillip