Martin Luther ? | SermonIndex

sermonindex Apr 30, 2006

"However that was not to be as it is said that while Luther was just outside of Stotterheim one day after visiting his parents he was caught in a terrific thunderstorm where lightning struck nearby, thus throwing him to the ground and in his terror he called out "St. Anne Help me! I will become a monk!" It's most likely he was considering a life of the cloth before this event, much to his father's chagrin."Did Luther worship Mary?'St.Anne = Mary'. Umm, I heard this, but is this true. And how can that still be possible for Luther's salvation? And if Luther was saved, then how do we judge some of today's 'reformed' catholics. Who believe in justification thru faith. but yet hold to Mary and the rest of the saints.Just a thought, while I was studing him.

sermonindex Apr 30, 2006

Has anyone studied Luther?I've seen this quote from NUMEROUS sources, like secular sources. And all the Protestant sources say he cried to God. Which is undoubtably (from my take) a cover up. Because I've heard from numerous people, including Lutherans,say that he worshipped Mary.Just wondering if anyone has studied Luther. I haven't, I do have a book on him. But, just curious and makes you think as well. :-)

C

crsschk Apr 30, 2006

Have you read the book you have?Seems this quote was well before hand in the scheme of things...http://www.online-literature.com/martin-luther/

C

Compton Apr 30, 2006

Hi Josh,Quotes can come from any point in a man's life...they may say something about who he was but not about who he ultimately became.Apparently several early Prostestants were fuzzy on this particular Mary issue. Quotes from Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger, and even J. Wesly himself have been gathered from letters or books that indicate these men believed Mary to be at least 'inviolata", or perpetually virgin even after the birth of Jesus. I'm not sure what to make of some of these quotes but perhaps they indicate how total and ultimate the doctrines of the Catholic Church had become for the whole spiritual theater of Europe during the middle ages. As you already know, Prostestants were just emerging from an unchallenged meta-narritive that had been in place since Constantine...perhaps some of these contradictions can be attributed to the "incompleteness" of Reformational rewiring.I am of the opinion that the Protest-ant Reformation was in formation for centuries, including the emergence of evangelical preaching...some say it still is. Interesting topic!Blessings,MC

sermonindex Apr 30, 2006

He didn't "worship" Mary, he just held a too high esteem for Mary. And both Calvin and Luther, and most people actually post-reformation and pre, esteemed Mary as the "Mother of God." That isn't "heretical" by any means, it is actually correct and biblical:Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (KJV)However, is holding her to an anymore "blessed" state and veneration than the rest of believers wrong? I would say so. I mean, the only person who is marked as being "greater" than the rest is John the Baptist.Martin Luther: (These were after he broke from Rome)"She, the Lady above heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility! It would surely have been more just to have arranged for her a golden coach, pulled by 4,000 horses, and to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded: 'Here passes the woman who is raised FAR ABOVE all women, indeed above the WHOLE human race.'" (Sermon, July 2, 1532)"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Sermon, September 1, 1522)."She is the highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom and holiness personified. We can never honour her enough." (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

sermonindex May 1, 2006

Mike, ahah!! I was actually reading it there, so then I posted this thread. Funny! (I think quite ironic, it made me smile)Anywho, this is NOT the first time I've heard this Mary deal.Esteeming (praise) Mary, I think is quite crazy.jordanamo wrote:"... 'Here passes the woman who is raised FAR ABOVE all women, indeed above the WHOLE human race.'" (Sermon, July 2, 1532)"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Sermon, September 1, 1522)."She is the highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom and holiness personified. We can never honour her enough." (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).That in bold, causes something to stur inside of me.From my Logical mind, if I was Luther, and I had a Lightining bolt strike near me and the first thing I cry out is MARY. Hmm, sounds like she has been on his mind, and also is held VERY HIGH (God-wise).Cause think of it this way. Most people in that situation would either cuss or say 'Oh God!' And...I think, that Luther said 'Oh, Mary (god)' in his mind and out loud.Does this throw away their teachings? Idk, you deceide from your own personal convictions.God uses the sand to speak to me, it doesn't matter if Luther is from God or not, EVERYONE/EVERYTHING can/is used by God in one way or another.I just posted this, as thought provoker. (I like doing that, cause it makes you think, and causes you to check yourself and your beliefs)Bless you.

C

Compton May 1, 2006

For what it's worth I wasn't familiar with this nuance of Protestant history. Your post Josh caused me to spend a little time digging around this afternoon. Blessings,MC

sermonindex May 15, 2006

So, what has everyone figured out? Have we gone any further on this topic, or have we sweap it under a rug?

This is something serious. And I don't think this topic should be taken so light. If it is, then we should all embrace our catholic 'brethren'. This is serious. This isn't a 'life-or-death' topic for me, but I think should involve some serious discussion.

K

KingJimmy May 15, 2006

Notice what Luther said, "...I will become a monk." Luther was a monk for a while before he discovered justification by faith. This incident was prior to his conversion, and is what drove him into being a monk.

A suggestion, you might consider reading either a biography about Luther, or even just for starters, a few pages from a book that survey's church history, which will go over the basic events of Luther's life (such as this event). The internet is a bad way to learn church history.

I

InTheLight May 15, 2006

This is something serious. And I don't think this topic should be taken so light. If it is, then we should all embrace our catholic 'brethren'. This is serious. This isn't a 'life-or-death' topic for me, but I think should involve some serious discussion.

It almost seems that you consider this issue of Mariology to be the only, or perhaps primary, wedge between Protestants and Catholics. I don't believe this is the case.

I believe Luther's main issue was with the doctrine of justification by faith. This was the point of Luther's revelation concerning Romans 1:17 (the just shall live by faith), and it hammered a firm wedge between scripture and the error of the Roman Catholic church. This matter of how a person is justified in the sight of God must be truly understood. Error will always say a person must "do" something to have peace with God, the truth says the work is "done".

In Christ,

Ron

C

ChrisJD May 15, 2006

Hi everyone.

Notice what Luther said, "...I will become a monk." Luther was a monk for a while before he discovered justification by faith. This incident was prior to his conversion, and is what drove him into being a monk.

That this incident happened ~~[b]~~before[/b] Martin Luther's conversion to Christ is also consistent with what I have heard taught about him. I think it is very plainly taught that Luther ~~[b]~~was[/b] a monk, that ~~[b]~~later[/b] came to faith in Christ.

If that is true, and this qoute was spoken at a time when Luther's soul was yet unillumined by the light of the Gospel, then we owe his memory in history the honor of not searching through the details of his unregenerate past for ammunition to assult his piety. I do not say this has been done here, however I think we ought to shun even the appearance of it nevertheless.

Whatever the case I think that caution is not un-called for concerning how we treat the memory of the men of history and the individual histories of men.

Peace be with you all.

sermonindex May 15, 2006

Martin Luther is one of my favorites. He was a brilliant scholar and theologian but he did have his faults.

At the time of the reformation the whole world was under the thumb of the Roman Catholic church. The bible was hid from the common folk and there were very few that could even read it. Literacy was almost lost during the middle ages and the priests could barely read themselves. This explaines how they could get away with fleecing the flock. The people did'nt know any better. They had to rely on what the preists told them.(Thats why we need to study the Word for ourselves to keep the preachers and teachers in check.) Many tried to reform the church before Martin Luther came along but were murdered. Luther was saved while studying to be a preist. He had never read the New Testament until he went to college.

It was while on a pilgrimage that the word of God that had been planted in his heart began to grow and take root and suddenly while on his knees the words "justified by grace through faith" penetrated his heart and he was born again.

He was so aware of his sins that he would spend hours in confession, but was never satisfied that his sins were forgiven. He would ware out the preists at confession. It was'nt until he was born again that he felt redeemed. Although he was a hero of the faith he brought much of that twisted, rotten, Roman Catholic doctrine with him, and it was'nt long until the Lutheran church was infected by this disease. Now their nothing more than a catholic church with another name.

He also disliked the Jews and the anebaptists(now called the baptists). He loved his German beer and was known to guzzle down large quantities of the stuff. This was their main source of water during the middle ages. Beer was much cheaper than water so many people drank beer like water. He also had a pretty foul mouth and was known for his vulgar language.

Was he saved? I really think he was. I think the problem with christians during this time(unlike us today) was simply ignorance of the Word. They did'nt have the word of God in every home like we do today. Imagine not being able to find the bible anywhere.

He also made the first translation of the New Testament from Greek to German. Heres an interesting thought that I think all you scholars will like. He REJECTED the ALEXANDRIAN texts as being corrupted and would'nt use them for his translation. ;-) That'll burn some of you up. :-P

TABLE TALK is a book you should try out. It's a collection of conversations between Luther and many of the other reformers during this time and says alot about his doctrine. He was very sound in some areas but in others he went way off the deep end. Just ignorant of the Word.

You should also read some of his sermons. He was a great preacher and teacher.

He did alot of preaching against the catholic church and the pope.

J-bird

C

CJaKfOrEsT May 15, 2006

KingJimmy wrote:
Notice what Luther said, "...I will become a monk." Luther was a monk for a while before he discovered justification by faith. This incident was prior to his conversion, and is what drove him into being a monk.

I agree with Jimmy here. Most point to Luther's objections to "indulgences" as the seed moments of his Protestantism. I suggest that you read his ~~[url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html]~~95 Theses[/url], to get an idea of where he was at, theologically at that point. Note most historians believe that when he posted this he actually believed that the Pope was unaware of what the clergy were doing, and that if it was pointed out to him, he would give the indulences without free of charge. Mind you, at a latter date he confessed that he believed the Pope to be the antichrist.

Luther's life is an interesting one, to say the least, and from my limited study of him, I would have to consider him to be one of the most enigmatic and misunderstood individuals that the world has ever seen. As Jimmy said, beware of learning your church history from the internet (especially in this day of DaVinci Code and the associated hype), but check out reliable sources. there are people here who are studied up on the theme and both audio and text studies. But don't just stop at reading about him, read his writings. May I suggest his~~[url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html]~~Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians[/url], of which John Bunyan said, "I prefer this book of Martin Luther on the Galatians (excepting the Holy Bible) before all the books that ever I have seen, as most fit for a wounded conscience."

sermonindex May 16, 2006

I think many of you have pushed what I said under the rug, claiming that 'oh thats some lies on the internet'.

Umm, but it doesn't seem like those who has studied Luther disagree with me. (I never said, luther wasnt saved but instead questioned the whole mary thing)

I think Chris JD's post was accurate on this topic. That Luther was called into monastary by 'mary' or w/e ....(for lack of a better word) and THEN gets SAVED after that.

And probly during the whole salvation stage, rejects the whole mary/god idea.

So! What have I learned? Luther cried out to Mary, at this 'call' to monastary, but that was probly BEFORE his actual conversion to Christ.

C

CJaKfOrEsT May 16, 2006

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:
So! What have I learned? Luther cried out to Mary, at this 'call' to monastary, but that was probly BEFORE his actual conversion to Christ.

I think it would be safe to drop the "probably" from your statement here. Luther joined the monastry out of fear, and became a controversial figure as he taught in the college by reading directly from the Scriptures to the commmon folk(which was unheard of in those days). At some point after this, Luther became deeply convicted over his sin, and doubted the availablity of forgiveness for his sin. The abbott of the monastry (I can't remember his name, but from all accounts, he was a pious man who genuinely knew the Lord) asked him to recite the Apostle's Creed. When he arrived at "I believe in the forgiveness of sins", the abbott said, "But do you believe in the forgiveness of 'Martin Luther's sin'?" At that point Luther experience a 'crack in the doorway' to the revelation that "the Just shall live by faith".

Understand that the protestant stance against the Church of Rome is primarily against the 'dogma' that says that Christian is saved by the observance of the 'seven sacrements'. The Reformers objected to the Catholic stance that 'church tradition' holds an equal place to Scripture, because Scripture emerged from tradition. Protestants believe that it was more a matter of tradition 'recognising' Scripture, which is truth in itself. This is where the term 'Sola Scriptura' (Scripture Alone) comes from. To this day, the Roman Catholic Church rejects the Sola Scriptura stance, and a journey through a Catholic Bookshop will find as many books debunking Sola Scriptura and the reformers, as you'll find against the DaVinci Code in a Christian Bookshop (perhaps even more).

Luther didn't embrace this straight away, but seemed to come to a deeper understanding and realisation of this truth. Is this really so hard to understand? After all, there are many here who didn't start off well in this Christian walk. I for one didn't just wake up one day and figure out every deception that I was embracing, but slowly accepted it over a period of years.

So what if Luther was a "Marian Worshipper" when he joined the cloister. Reading his writings, and you'll quickly realise that he wasn't one in the end. To paraphrase Richard Owen Roberts, "Christian isn't about a great start, ir's about a glorious ending."

On an interesting note, Ignatius De Loyola (founder of the Society of Jesus, aka the Jesuits) was a contemporary of of Luther, and when he began to see the excesses that Luther observed, he dedicated his life to the service of Mary and the Holy See.

L

letsgetbusy May 18, 2006

Have not read all the posts, but I like what Reidhead said,

"We had a Protestant Reformation, and oh, it did everything but reform! It was good, but it didn't go far enough -- it didn't reform."