The "Five Fold Ministry"?

Shalom saints, God bless you one and all. As you may have already recognized, church, especially in the USA has fallen way short of expectations and potential in the last century. Why is that? Well there are a wide variety of reasons. One deficiancy I want to focus in on is the deficiancy in our churches of Evangelists, Prophets, and Apostles. Where are they? Why is it that pastors rule thier kingdoms instead of re-presenting God's kingdom? Now and then you run across Teachers, but where are the rest? Churches, when ran like commercial corporations, have a "CEO", Chief Executive Officer, a pastor. This is the "man at the top". Jesus said if we wanted to be at the top of His kingdom, we had to be a servant for the rest of the Body. From this ultra simplistic statement, we realize that it is infinitely more complex than stated, but let's keep it simple for illustration sake. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers are the foundational stones that are set in place after the cornerstone. They support the rest of the body. They are not at some lofty position, they labor to serve all the rest. Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:11 And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers. These men are not elected by popular vote, they are given to us by God. If God has given them to us, where are they? Why are not all five more prominent among our church bodies? What have we done with these "gifts"??????? 12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church), God's intention was to give all five to the church for the perfecting and fully equipping of the saints, that they should do the work of the ministry. Now this is quite clear. (Before you think about whether are not the saints are doing the work of the ministry, think about what ministry really is. For a clue, please pause here and read Isaiah 58 and Matthew 25:31-46). So ask yourself again, who is really doing the ministry in your church. Is it just one man and everyone else helps him with his ministry, or are the saints really doing the work of the ministry? Who is building up Christ's Body in your local body? 13 [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him. His purpose is to have a Body that is one, fully functional, not just one or two parts. He wants a church that fully comprehends Who Jesus Christ really is. Do all the members of your local body fully comprehend Who Jesus is? To answer that question, are they living their lives in such a way that the standard they hold too and live out in their everyday lives is Jesus Christ? Can others see Jesus Christ readily in the lives of the saints? If not, then we have not fully comprehended Who Jesus is. If we did, we would yeild our vessels completely to Him and walk in obedience. If all of this is so, and I know in most cases it is, then we still need Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists functioning in our churches. Amen? Where are they? 14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead. Have you seen the saints tossed around to and fro? Have you seen them running after teaching and false doctrines of unscrupulous men? I sure have. Then we must still need the Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists. But where are they? Has God failed to give them? If God has given them, have they been rocognized and received? If not, why not? What is our loss because of it? Yes, I know that there are as many false prophets in the world, pehaps more, than there are real ones. Same thing for Apostles and Evangelists. Does this mean that at the mention of such a nomenclature, that we heave and run? Do you do that when "pastor" is mentioned? Let's be honest, if most pastors were following the Lord, they would welcome real Apostles and Prophets, Evangelist too. My Lord, it would sure make their job eaiser. But if their job is only a job, and their financial income relies on it, then they must keep themselves at the top of the pile and thier pockets at the bottom of the money chute that flows so freely in corporation church. I'd like to share an object lesson with you to help you better understand. The object is found on your arm, that is if you have one or two of them. The object is your hand, considering that it has four fingers and a thumb. If yours does not, look on with someone who has all of them. Thank you. The object lesson for this illustration is your hand. As you look at it, I hope it has 4 fingers and a thumb. I Ephesians 4, Paul tells us that God gave to the church Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Teachers, and Pastors for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry. This is commonly called the five fold ministry. This description is not exactly accurate, but let's not get distracted there right now. As you look at your hand, the index finger represents the prophet because he points the way. The middle finger represents the evangelist, because he goes the longest distance. The ring finger represents the pastor, because that finger is associated with love, covering, and the heart. The small finger represents the teacher. Now, lets work our way back to where we started. The teacher works really well along side the pastor, but not the evangelist or the prophet. The teacher's make up and gifts are designed this way so that the the Teacher most benefits the Pastor and the congregation that the Pastor watches over. The pastor is located between the teacher and the evangelist. These are the two he works best with. One wins souls, the other trains them. The pastor oversees the process. A shepherd leads his sheep. The evangelist is between the prophet and the pastor. Someone has to take in the new babes and feed them and shepherd them. The pastor and teacher are well equipped for this. The prophet provides insight for the evangelist and helps keep things pointed in the right direction. They hear from God and reveal His heart and purpose for the hour, not just the future. Now the thumb represents the apostle. The apostle works best with the prophet, but it is the only member on the hand that can touch all the other fingers quite easily. The apostle helps keep a tight grip on the church and assits all ther other leaders in the training process. All the others depend on the apostle to hold things together. The Apostle is also capable of operating and working with all the others on a close and personal basis, and even filling in if needed for a short time. The Apostle is gifted in like ministry with all the other four. They are prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral, and capable teachers. The Apostle is responsible for unity among the local body, and local bodies. He presides over sound doctrine, and helps all the other four keep their grip on truth and love. He appoints leadership that is called of God, not elected because they are popular. Jesus was not popular, especially when it came to the religious crowd. If your hand has only a ring finger on it, it is very limited in what it can accomplish, even though your ring finger may be a very hard worker. The hand needs all the fingers and it's thumb to be effective in it's work. The church needs all it's faculties, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers if it is going to be effective. I do believe that this lack in our churches over the past 100 years and even longer, is the one of the biggest contributing factors to the ineffectiveness of the church. What are we going to do about it? Would you pray about that? Immersed in Him, Onesimus for God

Hi One,If you want to find a good message on apostolic mechanics find a a message by Art Katz called What is Apostolic. Very profound truth. Also by him is a message called "the antioch church" I think, also very good if you want to explore such things. He speaks as only Art can, but if you get past his 'noise' he is very good.What stands out for me in what he says is that Apostolic/prophetic christianity has at its root relationship. By relationship I mean covenental, the need for each other being the focus instead of the need to be right.Anyway happy meditations,

Bro. Onesimus,I agree with you that all the ministry gifts should be in operation in the body of Christ.I think most would agree that they are not. We could discuss many reasons for this, but it really falls upon man. We get in God’s way. Lets illustrate it like this, You asked the question, “ Why is this?” in the beginning of your post. You, answer your own question, in another post. Oh America.If I may quote you, Onesimus said,“So this is our only pulpit that is always open. Not only that, it is available around the world. I thank God for SI and the internet. Had I not had it afforded to me all these years, I would have swollen up and burst no doubt. Why? Because pastors hate to see me coming. It's not that I have a critical spirit. It's the anointing that makes them shake in their boots. All that is dear to them is in jeapordy when a real man of God shows up. They immediatle try to find some flaw so they can character assasinate you. I've got news for them. Anyone can destroy my reputation, but I'm the only one who can destroy my character. And since God does not repent on His calling, I'm not about to lose or give up that either.” Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. You see brother, it is not about us and it is really not about the gifts, but its about Him.He is going to build His church in spite of man or the gates of hell.Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Its really very simple brother, we need to get on our knees and pray and seek His face, and ask Him to allow us to see this very Glorious, and Wonderful work that only He canPerform.All Glory to Him,pastorfrin

Hey folks:Never mind the Evangelists, Prophets. and Apostles, where can a person find a church that still has JESUS?Blessings Greg

Hey, I like this post and will add my two cents worth. Pastor Frin, I had a question from your post. You said first it was man that get's in the way and then at then end say that it is God that will build it. I agree with both but how do we get 'em both together. Can God truly build His kingdom if we are getting in the way? And are we really getting in the way, maybe what is happening is the result of God building His kingdom. He notices a sparrow fall, does He not notice the apostasy and falseness of the church at large. Maybe it was Him that allowed these things to take place and where we think we are getting in the way we maybe actually fulfilling a piece of God's puzzle. Jesus said His kingdom was like a lump of dough and some leaven was placed in it and then the whole became leavened. Is this referring to corporate church, the apostate, the majority?Just some rantings on my partonly His Kingdom comeRich

Where the Holy Spirit abounds, Jesus Christ will be the center piece of all. He said that when the Holy Spirit comes, "He will testify of me". Will He not use ordinary men to testify of Him?"0"

Guys help me out;Just what scripture says that there has to be Evangelists, Apostles, and Prophets active in the local church to make it viable? I can't seem to find it.Blessings Greg

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: In the book of Acts there is more mentioned throughout the book , say for example, apostles.... the ministry of apostles from start to finish. But as for your question, there is no specific verse that says, The local body of Christ will have a reconized evangelist, apostle, prophet, pastor teacher....etc... But I believe the principles have been laid down to imply that God who is consistant will have that in place, maybe not 24/7 in the local assembly, but there should be these gifts in circulation among the churches for the building up--or mending of the (nets)(setting of the joints) the body of Christ. Also, there probably is some who aren't standing in a pulpit that may be filling a ministry appointed by the Lord, even though there are limitations imposed by the traditions of men, the grace of God is greater.

Dohzy, I agree whole heartedly. Each local church should have a pastor and perhaps a teacher if possible. The pastor may be a teacher preacher or a preacher teacher. There may in time rise up among them an Evangelist, Prophet, or even and Apostle, called by God. But not every local assembly have all.Where the problem comes in, is that the church is a corporation where power and authority become a lust for control and dominion. Not even Paul taught this, in fact quite the opposite.2 Cor 1:24 Not that we have dominion (over you) and Lord it over your faith, but (rather that we work with you as) fellow laborers (to promote) your joy, for in (your) faith (in your strong and welcome conviciton or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through Whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God) you stand firm. Amplified Bible"0"

Where the problem comes in, is that the church is a corporation where power and authority become a lust for control and dominion. Unfortunitely you're right here, church has become big buisness, often times, but not always, shrouded in a cloak of covetousness, But even in that the Word of God says that the heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord and like rivers of water He turns it which ever way He wills.

Hi Rich,You asked, quote: Can God truly build His kingdom if we are getting in the way?I was speaking of ministry gifts, I said,“Bro. Onesimus,I agree with you that all the ministry gifts should be in operation in the body of Christ.I think most would agree that they are not. We could discuss many reasons for this, but it really falls upon man. We get in God’s way”.Rich, what we see happening, is God, allowing the apostate church to wallow in its pride.How? By believing that the right man, the right program, the right method, and the right special teaching, ( like some kind of new revelation from God) will cause some great move of God.When I say its not about us I refer you to His Word.Isaiah 55:6-11 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [10] For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. If the Lord willed it, He could simply speak His church into existence, instead, His Word says,Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So you see He Will Build His Church, man, nor hell itself, cannot prevent Him.So you see, its all about Him, and His Church. He will build it by His Word.He will bring His Will to pass, not any man, or any plan devised by man.Genesis 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. Psalm 37:5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. Isaiah 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. You see, what ever He purposes in His heart, He brings to pass.The only way we become a part of this is to,Get on our knees and pray and seek His face, and ask for His Word to accomplish His Will in us.1 Cor. 1:26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: [27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence. [30] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: [31] That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. This also answers ‘O’s question, “ Will He not use ordinary men to testify of Him?”Only by The Word of God,Rev. 19:11-16 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Yes, gentlemen, it is the corporate church, it is the pride of all the so called Christians who have brought the world into the church, because they are gutless wonders, to afraid to go into the World and compel them to come to the Kingdom. Its man that has heaped to themselves teachershaving itching ears, teaching doctrines of devils.Just remember something, these churches and these men only exist because of the demand of the people to have them. They have been deceived and they believe the lie.Jesus said, Matthew 15:12-14 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? [13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. So, let them alone. We can do one thing and one thing alone, stop complaining and start praying.You will see THE LORD JESUS CHRIST BUILD HIS CHURCH, in spite of us.HIS WLL, will BE DONE,pastorfrin

Mr. DohzmanI agree with you on this and much that has beared witness with my spirit.Quote:But even in that the Word of God says that the heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord and like rivers of water He turns it which ever way He wills.I belive this is in the book of Psalms. May you please quote the chapter and vs?

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

my favorite scripture in that chapter though is the next one:

Pro 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
I love that scripture!!!!

When we go to foreign mission sites, we find that corporate church is not so prevalant. There, they are not interested in your theological degree, but in the anointing on your life and the truth of God in your mouth. Even though faith is much stronger because of need, western influence still robs the remnant church of blessing God intends to bestow upon it.
There is a remnant church in the USA, thank God. It is not controlled by man, but by His Holy Spirit. There are hundreds, even thousands that are serving God and their fellowman without recompense. You won't read about them in "Christianity Today", but you will hear all about them in Heaven when they get their reward. Alleluia.
I have found in online fellowship, there is more freedom to operate in whatever calling God has given. Prophets are heard right along with the Evangelist and Apostle. Even Pastors are forced to move in the Spirit or get left in the dust. I like that.
Here, we cannot make tainted value judgements by the corruption of natural sight. We only get to see what God sees, the heart. For out of the abundance of the Heart, the mouth speaketh. Here, all we see is what comes out of the heart. I can't judge you by what kind of home you live in, what you drive or how you dress. There is little or no offering of money, so I can't value you because of that? All I want to see is what I see here, the value of what is in your heart, and allow you a view into mine. If your light illuminates dark places in me, praise God. I want to be all light and life, His light, and His life. So I welcome and value what all have to say. Together we are growing in Chist Jesus, in faith and hope in Him crucified. That is a good thing. Praise God.

"O"

Ruach34 wrote:
Maybe it was Him that allowed these things to take place and where we think we are getting in the way we maybe actually fulfilling a piece of God's puzzle.
Rich

Well said Rich, I have always believed this and until someone here on earth can read Gods mind and know exactly why he does what he does we are wasting our time and time is short, I would also say unless you have some kind of unique power within you that tells you Gods next move why concern yourself? I figure I will spend my time doing what I know God wants me to do without to much figuring out, and that's to hit the streets and look for the lost and plant seeds that will hopefully bring them into his kingdom, can't go wrong doing that and it's a whole lot less confusing than trying to figure out why the Church is the way it is I will leave that one for God to work on. :-)

Why are not the 5 ministers side-by-side, each complementing the other. I know all these ministers exist, either hidden or on huge projection screen TVs each week, I can't say, but they do exist.
I have seen this at work in the church I attend; One may show more growth or maturity and another is jealous, one may show a greater ability to preach and another is put down. One may show humility and another boldness and the latter is accepted because of supposed annointing. A prophetic word may be uttered but it is rejected as too troublesome and it may shake up the congregation. There appears to be one man, in most church buildings called a pastor, that takes the lead role. (whether that role is assumed or given by God is another matter) That one man takes it on himself to lead as he sees fit...if something or someone bumps the flow it is rejected and cast out. Kinda like what happened to the healed blind man that was preachin' to the Pharisees and was kicked out of the temple.
One man is often touted as the only one able to recieve the vision from the Lord and then lead 'his' people in that direction.
I write this from my own experience...
Why don't I leave, you may ask? To leave is easy.
I desire a true transparency where one man/woman does not have all the answers but depends on like-minded believers and co-leaders to grow in the faith and inspire others to do the same, to follow Christ as they do. Only God can do that kind of thing in the midst of believers, to make us utterly nothing, humble servants, not boasting in any education or annointing we may possess.
O, God, make us to know our utter wretchedness so that you can finally perfect in us your utter holiness! Out of that kind of man/woman can come gifts that bless the body of Christ, and the 5 fold ministry will be manifested so that we as believers can grow into the full stature of Christ. Might it take a persecution of a kind we in US have never known. We are under governmental tyranny/judicial tyranny even now. Might that be increasing...

Blessed in God's sight is the death of His saints.
Rich