Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

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linda7 May 8, 2006

I have been reading Ever Increasing Faith by Wigglesworth. This was in the year 1905 during a revival in Sunderland. He heard people speaking in tongues and he sought and sought tongues but people kept telling him it was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that he needed. After many days and much seeking finally the vicar's wife layed hands on him and he received the Baptism. He describes it as a wonderful experience. He said that everything he had up to that point 'was in the nature of an anointing bringing him in line with God in preparation', but after the 'biblical baptism' he 'had the backing of the Scriptures'. He found out that this was a one-time experience. He could not speak in tongues after that. (The Lord much later on gave him the Gift of Tongues - 1 Cor 12)
John the Baptist said 'He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire' (Matt 3:11). There are three instances in Acts where the people were baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues - Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6. Now, I have received the gift of tongues (1 Cor 12) but I do not ever remember being baptized by the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues as is described by Wigglesworth and in the above scriptures in Acts. I will not lengthen this with details of my conversion and walk with the Lord to prove that I am saved; I would be interested to hear though from anyone who has received this scriptural evidence of being baptized in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Linda

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RobertW May 8, 2006

Hi Linda,

There are some great threads on this topic you may want to review by doing a search.

God Bless,

Robert

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linda7 May 8, 2006

Thank you Robert, I have found one or two threads.

Linda

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RobertW May 8, 2006

Thank you Robert, I have found one or two threads.

Feel free to enter in to any of the discussions or if you have some other points to share you certainly can do that on this thread. :-)

sermonindex May 8, 2006

There are also instances in Acts where people received the Holy Spirit and there is no mention of tongues.

We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. You can not be saved without having the Holy Spirit. Tongues is NOT the Biblical evidence of being filled w/the Holy Spirit. The Biblical evidence is the FRUITS of the Spirit, not the gifts. That was Pauls who point when he wrote to the Corinthians.

Krispy

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boomatt May 8, 2006

Hi Krisp,

That is always what scared me about going to some of these pentocostal churches.

In fact, a friend of mine, who goes to a church of God, tells me he will never sit in at a church where the pastor doesnt have the gift of tongues.

I think this is crazy. I dont like to compare, but I now go to Calvary chapel, where the word is preached. I used to go to a church of god, where nothing but prosperity was preached. And to add insult to injury, everyone always fell over at the end of the services. Only to be outside smoking cigaretts and using foul language.

I am not saying all church of god's are like this, but this clearly shows how we dont need to hear this mumbo jumbo coming from the charismatic circles.

I also dont get how people can interpret tongues, when all they say is blah shimei shemei shimei blah, It doesnt make any sense. They use the same sounds and interpret the words in english different. Weird....I know!!!

I feel some of these charismatic churches need to reread 1 Corinthians carefully.

God bless all

L

linda7 May 8, 2006

We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

Yes. And after this have you received power from on high? To do as Jesus did? Stever has experienced it, after he was saved. Read the thread on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Linda

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RobertW May 8, 2006

Hi boomat,

I used to go to a church of god, where nothing but prosperity was preached. And to add insult to injury, everyone always fell over at the end of the services. Only to be outside smoking cigaretts and using foul language.
I am not saying all church of god's are like this, but this clearly shows how we dont need to hear this mumbo jumbo coming from the charismatic circles.

I would encourage you not to allow the excesses of certain groups discourage you from seeking the Lord for all that He has for us. These things can stigmatize a good thing if we let them.

sermonindex May 9, 2006

Stever posts:

This is excellent teaching about the difference between salvation, and the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, the Baptism of Fire that empowers believers to witness and go about his business with boldness.

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The Baptism in the Holy Spirit versus Salvation
I. Question #1: Is every Christian, those who are "born-again", also baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is, is the baptism in the Holy Spirit automatically received with Salvation?

A. Read John 20:22
" 22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

The context of this passage is the time between the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus. Here Jesus breathes on His apostles, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit (that is, they are "born-again", i.e. "saved"). However, the first time that the baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs is on Pentecost, which occurred after the ascension.

B. Read Luke 24:49
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed (endued) with POWER from on high."

During this same period between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the ascension Jesus promises the apostles the baptism in the Holy Spirit and orders them to wait for it in the city of Jerusalem.

C. Read Acts 1:5
"for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with [in] the Holy Spirit not many many days from now."

Again the same promise and order not to leave the city of Jerusalem to the apostles by Jesus, before He was taken up into heaven.

D. Read Acts 2:4
"And they were ALL filled with the HOLY GHOST and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
This is the point where the apostles received the baptism IN the Holy Spirit. However as we have seen there existed a period of time between where they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and were BAPTIZED IN the Holy Spirit. These were separate acts and each have a different reason. Salvation comes with receiving the Holy Spirit, that is we are saved from the penalty of sin. We become sons of God, that is we receive the authority to act as the sons of God. With the baptism in the Holy Spirit we receive the power to act as the sons of God (incidentally, there is a third level where we receive the direction to act as a son of God).

II. Question #2: Ok, I can see that the apostles were first saved and THEN baptized in the Holy Spirit later, but what about ordinary people like me?

A. Read Acts 8:5
"And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming CHRIST to them."
B. Read Acts 8:8
"And there was much JOY in that city."
C. Read Acts 8:12
"But when they BELIEVED Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike."

They were preaching the message of Jesus and His offer of Salvation. They also accepted the message and signs which Philip brought, thus they were "born-again".

D. This is just what Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who has BELIEF and has been BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

At this point the people of Samaria are born-again, but nothing has been said, one way or the other, about BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

E. Read Acts 8:14 through 17
"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they SENT them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.
For He (THE HOLY GHOST) had not yet FALLEN UPON ANY of them; they had simply been baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.Then they began laying their hands on them , and they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit."

Thus, we see that the people of Samaria first were born-again, then baptized in the Holy Spirit later; this is just what we saw with the apostles themselves.

III. Question #3: Are there other examples of people first being born-again,
A Read Acts 19:1 through 6
"And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found some disciples,and he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED ?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit'.And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized? And they said, 'Into John's baptism',And Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in Him who was coming after Him, that is Jesus.'And when they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
And when ~~[b]~~Paul LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM[/b], ~~[b]~~the HOLY SPIRIT came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and they were prophesying[/b].
The people had believed the message preached by John about Jesus, they were believers, THEY WERE "SAVED" OR "BORN AGAIN". However they were never taught to be water baptized as the completion of righteousness (enter the death and resurrection as a symbolic act)-they were baptized only for repentence. Also, they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. When Paul told them of these things, first they were water baptized in the NAME of Jesus and second he LAID HANDS on them and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, these examples here explain my personal understanding of what really happens to the believer. The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST is an entirely separate event that takes place by the LAYING ON OF HANDS. Each of us can say that one do receive the Holy Spirit at the new birth, be saved, but NOT BE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IV. Question #4: Does this mean that some large period of time must pass between the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

A. Read Acts 10:44 through 48
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word (Gospel).
And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.

For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'
And he ordered them to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.

These people were Gentiles who were not raised knowing God, they were God fearing people, they were good people. They asked Peter to come deliver the message of salvation because God told them to do so in a vision. These people were not Christians, that is, they were not "saved" or "born-again". Peter delivered the salvation message as stated in verses 34 to 43, in verse 43 he specifically defined the requirement to be "saved", "Of Him all prophets bear witness that through HIS NAME everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins". After this they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. Here the group is preached to, they believed and thus were "born-again". Immediately after the new birth they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, even before the water baptism. This is the only case in the New Testament where this is seen, the normal case is first salvation, then later the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

V. Question #5: Is there a Scripture which lists these sequence of steps toward the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Ephesian 1:13
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE,"
The steps to the baptism in the Holy Spirit are 1) listen to the message of truth (the gospel), 2) believe the message (become saved), and 3) then be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

VI. Question #6: How does God decide who to baptize in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Luke 11:13
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?"

First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved. Read John 7:38 and 39, "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Thus first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ask for the gift of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, God does not make the decision as to who He baptizes, we must as children of God request the baptism from our heart.

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I pray this has been a blessing to all.

God bless,

Stever :-)

sermonindex May 9, 2006

Stever, I dont deny what that there is a point when believers seem to become empowered from on high. Some call it Baptism of the Holy Spirit, others call it The Second Blessing, still others call it Sanctification. However, I strongly disagree that a case can be made from scripture that the initial sign is tongues, and that if one has not spoken in tongues then they have not received the Baptism. Scripture does show 3 cases where that happened, but it did not happen in ever case.

No one here would question whether Billy Graham has been empowered from above, and yet he has never spoken in tongues. I dont agree with everything Billy Graham has done, especially concerning his fellowship with the wicked Roman Catholic Church, but thats beside the point.

John Wesley did not speak in tongues. Charles Finney did not speak in tongues. Are we to believe that these men did not move in the power of the Holy Spirit? No, I think not. As far as I can tell most of the men who were martyred by the Roman Catholic Church as the Reformation was beginning to take shape never spoke in tongues.

Matthew Henry, who wrote the greatest and most insightful Bible commentary in history never spoke in tongues.

Where is the evidence that tongues is the sign of the Baptism? There isnt any... unless you follow jokers like Copeland, Hagin, Hinn and Marilyn Hickey. And these hucksters cant hold a candle next to the men of God I mentioned previously.

Tongues ~~[i]~~can[/i] be a sign of the Baptism... but scripture shows and teaches that the real signs of being Baptised in the Spirit are the following:

~~[b]~~love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, & temperance[/b] (temperance... otherwise known as self control)

Krispy

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ginnyrose May 9, 2006

Once I had a client who was involved in a cult - an ungodly group - who detailed to me how THEY spoke in tongues!! Seems to me one should be very discerning and extrememly careful when you hear people speaking in tongues: what is the source of this gibberish?

The most amazing aspect of tongues - which you might rather consider - is where a minister will be preaching and in his audience there will be a person who cannot understand the language he speaks but is understanding the sermon perfectly. I personally know of a couple preachers/evangelists this has happened to. Now this is awesome, IMHO!

ginnyrose

sermonindex May 9, 2006

The most amazing aspect of tongues - which you might rather consider - is where a minister will be preaching and in his audience there will be a person who cannot understand the language he speaks but is understanding the sermon perfectly. I personally know of a couple preachers/evangelists this has happened to. Now this is awesome, IMHO!

I personally know missionaries who have experienced this. And this is the tongues that happened in Acts Chapter 2.

As for other religions, every major religion has some sect in it that practices tongues. To me... tongues isnt a sign of anything if it isnt accompanied with fruit.

Krispy

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boomatt May 9, 2006

This is a clip from Chuck Smith's book:

Carisma V. Charismania

I hope you get blessed by it.

"One Result of Tongues
Several years ago, when Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa was quite small, we were meeting on Sunday nights in a clubhouse. On a particular Sunday evening (which was Pentecost Sunday), at the close of the lesson as we were softly worshipping God together, I asked one of the ladies in the fellowship if she would worship God in the Spirit, since I knew that when she spoke in tongues she usually spoke in French. As she began to worship God, I could understand enough of her French to know that she was thanking God for her new life in Christ and the beautiful new song of love He had given her. I thought this was especially beautiful, as she used to be a nightclub singer prior to her conversion. At the conclusion of her worship in the Spirit, my wife began to give the interpretation to the group, and knowing that she does not know French, I was particularly blessed to hear how accurately the worship with the Spirit was being interpreted for the fellowship.

After the meeting one of the young men in the fellowship brought a Jewish girl from Palm Springs for counseling. When we sat down together, she said, "Before we get to my problems, explain to me what was happening here tonight. Why did the one lady speak to God in French, and the other lady translate to the group what she said?" I said, "Would you believe that neither of those ladies knows French?" I told her that I knew for a fact that neither knew French, since one of them was a close friend and the other was my wife. I then showed her in I Corinthians where it speaks of the gift of tongues and interpretation. She then told me that she had lived in France for six years, and that the French spoken was in the perfect accent of what she called the Aristocratic French. She also stated that the translation was perfect. She then said, "I must accept Jesus Christ now, before we go any further."

It was my joy to see her find her Messiah and become a member of the body of Christ. There was a demonstration of the gift of tongues, followed by the true interpretation, which was glorious praise and worship of God. The result was the edifying of the body and in this case the conversion of this Jewish girl."

sermonindex May 9, 2006

I dont have a problem with that, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for Chuck Smith. I believe (and Acts 2 backs me up) that tongues are earthly languages, and not some gibberish called "heavenly" or "angelic" language. No where in scripture are we encouraged to pray in the "tongues of angels". When Paul mentioned "tongues of angels" he was using a that as a way of making a point. He was using an exagerative expression. We do it everyday. Lawyers utilize it all the time. Yet many have made a whole doctrine based on one verse, and that verse has been grossly misinterpreted.

Anyway... I believe that what Chuck Smith is describing here is the legitimate gift of tongues. Not the normal for what we see in the usual Sunday morning circus.

Krispy

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GodsPeace May 9, 2006

I also dont get how people can interpret tongues, when all they say is blah shimei shemei shimei blah, It doesnt make any sense. They use the same sounds and interpret the words in english different. Weird....I know!!!

Thanks Boomat. I have wondered this exact same thing. I have studied several languages over the years, and noticed that a lot of people when speaking in tongues were using a very small set of words to convey something later interpreted in very fluent English. These messages, though using good English, were suspect, however, because they were supposed to edify the believer and the body, but their content was not such that they could. I rarely heard anything afterwards akin to, "Gee! Did you hear that interpretation! I was really blessed!"

A teacher of mine related a story of how he went to a charismatic or pentecostal church with a college buddy. His buddy got up and started speaking in an unknown tongue. When he was finished, a member stood up and began an interpretation. The student said, "That's not the interpretation! I was reciting the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew!" They were shown the door.

There was a lot of pressure put on me to speak in tongues, and various trips laid on me after I was forced out of my Baptist church, to a life of wandering. After seeking and praying and not receiving anything like a second act of grace, I was however, experiencing a second wave of guilt and self-condemnation. At this point, I began speaking in tongues not because of a gift, but out of self defense. I think that many, if they were being truly honest with themselves, would admit that it was not a gift, but an act of the will.

I spoke to a girl in a Vineyard in Bangkok a couple months ago about the importance of prayer in the life of the believer. I had mentioned to her earlier that I didn't agree with the pastor's statement that God wanted everyone to have the gift of prophecy. She said she didn't pray too much, but, when she did, it was mostly in tongues. She said that made her feel good. Mission accomplished, I guess. I told her I had questions about it and that I never had the 'gift', she said that she didn't either, that she just started doing it.

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PreachParsly May 9, 2006

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Krispy,

What is the difference of praying in the spirit and praying in the understanding?

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PreachParsly May 9, 2006

Double post...

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boomatt May 9, 2006

Hi Godspeace,

I remember when I was going to a church of God, and everyone encouraged me to get the gift of tongues. So I seeked it, only to forget about Jesus and set my sites on something that didnt mean anything to me.

Then, during a revival, when everyone was falling on the ground screaming and shouting in tongues, the evangelist touched my head, and I fell over speaking in tongues. Did I get that gift, NO. I now believe that this was all used to hypnotize and to get peoples emotions up, so the pastor/ evangelist could take over the show, and get away with saying/doing whatever he/she wanted to do.

As a result, I have repented for making a mockery of Christ.

We as christians should wake up!!! and do something about this.

L

linda7 May 9, 2006

However, I strongly disagree that a case can be made from scripture that the initial sign is tongues, and that if one has not spoken in tongues then they have not received the Baptism.

On Resurrection Sunday the disciples received the Holy Ghost. Jesus breathed on them and said 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost'. (John 20:19-22).
No tongues were spoken but they received the Holy Ghost from Jesus.

One and a half months later they (and others)were filled with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, where Jesus had told them to 'tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH' . The tongues that they spoke when the Spirit fell on them were known and understood by others, (not themselves) ethnic languages, or dialects. Not to be confused with the 'unknown tongue' (singular) spoken by the Corinthians which had to be interpreted (Paul demanded it). Two experiences. Once receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus and second receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, with utterances in tongues.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues".

sermonindex May 9, 2006

What is the difference of praying in the spirit and praying in the understanding?

Preach... I never said people shouldnt pray in tongues. I said scripture does not support the theory of a heavenly or angelic language that believers will speak in.

Krispy