What was salvation in the Old Testament? In the Old Testament there was a prescribed way to have sins forgiven. What was it and was that salvation as mentioned in the NT? What was the difference, if any? What was the prescribed way? Where did the righteous in the OT go upon death? What does the Bible say?
:-)rm
I believe they were saved by grace through faith just like we are today. They were cleansed by the blood of the lamb(Christ) just like we are today. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law. Neither are we. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and overcame the world-- and if we let Him, He will save us FROM SIN, He will fulfill the law in us, and He will overcome the world through us! :-) :-)
Combat_Chuck wrote:
I believe they were saved by grace through faith just like we are today. They were cleansed by the blood of the lamb(Christ) just like we are today. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law. Neither are we. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and overcame the world-- and if we let Him, He will save us FROM SIN, He will fulfill the law in us, and He will overcome the world through us! :-) :-)
Thanks Chuck, but Jesus had not yet come to die that His Blood save them. So my questions remain.
Orm
Salvation in OT was by faith in God. Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. Same as NT. Sins were covered, atoned for, by a sin offering (Ex. 29.36).
The OT saints went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) sometimes called Abraham's Bosom, until Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world. The thief on the cross went to Paradise because Jesus had not yet died as the perfect sin offering. Jesus after death went to Sheol where the unrighteous were kept separate from the righteous, who were in Paradise. Until the death of Jesus, Paradise was in Abraham's Bosom. Jesus after death went to Sheol, to Paradise, then led captivity captive and took the OT saints to Heaven, where all who are saved now go.
In His Love
Linda
Ormly wrote:
Combat_Chuck wrote:
I believe they were saved by grace through faith just like we are today. They were cleansed by the blood of the lamb(Christ) just like we are today. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law. Neither are we. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and overcame the world-- and if we let Him, He will save us FROM SIN, He will fulfill the law in us, and He will overcome the world through us! :-) :-)
Thanks Chuck, but Jesus had not yet come to die that His Blood save them. So my questions remain.
Orm
The lambs that the OT Jews sacrficed to God were a picture of the Saviour to come.
Think about this. What cleansing power does an lamb have, anyways? It's just an animal.
You are limiting God within time. God is not limited within time. He created time. "In the beginning...". God is outside of time, though He works within it.
Jesus is able to cleanse humanity by His blood 2000 years after His death; why can't he cleanse humanity 4000 years before His death?
Jesus died on that cross for the sins of the entire world, regardless of time-- Not only the people after Him.
I love the way Tony Campolo puts it,
If I was to put you in a rocket and send you into outerspace, (This is just an illustration, not a suggestion-- you understand.) and gave you these very careful instructions, "Listen, you're to travel at 160,000 miles/per second relative to the rest of us-- and to come back in 10 years. Bernard would be there with his watch and his calendar, and every 24 hours he'd mark off a day, every 365 days he'd mark off a year. At the end of 10 years he would return. Now here's the interesting thing, If during that 10 years he was travelling at 160,000 miles/per second relative to the rest of us-- when he returned he would be 10 years older, but all the rest of us would be 20 years older. Isn't that weird? According to Albert Einstein, as you approach the speed of light, time becomes compressed. So travelling at 160,000 miles/per second relative to the rest of us, our 20 years would be compressed into 10 years of his time. If we could get Bernard travelling at 170,000 miles/per second, our 20 years would be compressed into one day of his time. That's wild. And here's the clincher, if we could get Bernard travelling at the speed of light-- now, we can't do that... because as you approach the speed of light, mass increases outward in a geometric progression to infinity. So, don't let anybody ever say, "You're fat!"-- just say, "I'm travelling too fast!". But if we could get you travelling at the speed of light without disintegration, this is what would happen-- all of human history would be compressed into the now, all of time would be compressed into an instantanious now.You say, "Well why did you go through all of this?" For a very simple reason-- Because Jesus is God, when He was on the cross 2000 years ago. He was capable of experiencing time just like that. Because He is God, He is able to experience all of time, as though it was at the speed of light. The Scripture says this, "The thousand years with God are as a day, the day is a thousand years.". The very name of God, suggests that God always lives in the present. Think of His name, "I AM, that I AM." -- God never was, never will be. God always IS. When they asked Jesus about Himself, this is what He said, "Before Abraham was", you got it, "I AM."-- What He meant to say was this, "Before there was ever an Abraham thousands and thousands of years ago-- that was present tense with Me, I AM, the great I AM. I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am the Beginning and the End. Everything happens now with Me." The significance of that, is this-- that when Jesus was hanging from the cross, two-thousand years ago-- He was, and is, simultaneous with you sitting here, this evening. Jesus, on the cross, can look at you at this very moment.
There's an objective side, I was in an airport and there was an old guy, sound asleep, and a man was workin' the crowd, and got to this guy, shook him, he was a black guy, white hair-- you know, an old guy-- Looked up, he said, "Yeah, what is it?"-- and the guy said, "Excuse me, sir, are you saved?"-- the poor old guy said, "Yeah, yeah, I think I'm saved."-- He said, "Can you tell me exactly when you were saved?"-- the old guy said, "Well, not exactly... it was about two-thousand years ago..."-- And then he added, "I just found out about it recently."
You know, that's true isn't it? Two-thousand years ago, Jesus atoned for your sins. But let me tell you this, there's another way of looking at the cross. It's, this way-- that when He was on the cross two-thousand years ago, because He is God, two-thousand years does NOT seperate Him from you sitting here, and now. Because He's God, when He was on the cross, He could focus His eyes dirrectly on each one of you. He could focus His eyes, and look right into yours. And let me just tell you the truth-- He is doing it. He is doing it right now! Believe this, Jesus two-thousand years ago is looking straight at you, this very moment, because Jesus is God, and because He is God, He could experience every person, no matter where that person was placed in history, in His now. Jesus right now is looking at you, and if you'll let Him, He will reach out from the cross, like a spounge He will reach into your life and absorbe from you, drain out of you, ever dirty, filthy thing-- the dark side of you. And all of us have a dark side. Each of us has a dark side. Jesus at this moment, on the cross, will absorb into His own body, everything that dirty, and ugly and filthy-- and make it His own. Do you have any idea of what this means? The man who never sinned, the man who never sinned-- at this moment, is absorbing into His own personhood the sin of us all.
Anyways. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure some will. In fact, please, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm in no way dogmatic on this and in fact I really want to know the truth on these things.
Adam
linda7 wrote:
Salvation in OT was by faith in God. Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. Same as NT. Sins were covered, atoned for, by a sin offering (Ex. 29.36).The OT saints went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) sometimes called Abraham's Bosom, until Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world. The thief on the cross went to Paradise because Jesus had not yet died as the perfect sin offering. Jesus after death went to Sheol where the unrighteous were kept separate from the righteous, who were in Paradise. Until the death of Jesus, Paradise was in Abraham's Bosom. Jesus after death went to Sheol, to Paradise, then led captivity captive and took the OT saints to Heaven, where all who are saved now go.
In His Love
Linda
I agree Linda. Lets open it up with the question why was the blood sacrifice required if faith in God satisfied the issue of justification? Could I do one without the other? I.e., offer sacrifices for the atoning of my sins in faithless-ness? If not, why was shed blood of (innocent) animals a thing God required --- at all?
:-(rm
Stever posts:
Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the WORLD.
John 1:29 tells us that Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the world. Please notice that it doesn't say "ONLY THE SIN AFTER THIS TIME" OR "ONLY THE SIN AFTER CHRIST DIES ON THE CROSS AND RESURRECTS FROM THE DEAD".
No, Jesus Christ came to take away all of the sin of the world, going back all the way in time to the beginning in the Garden to Adam, and all of the way forward to the end of time. All of my sin that I committed before I became a believer in Jesus Christ, and all of the sin that I commit after I became a believer.
All Sin, for all people that BELIEVE (have FAITH IN). Those that before the cross believed in the Messiah to come, and those after the cross that believe in the Messiah that came.
The New Testement is replete with teaching on this concept.
Romans is full of this teaching, specifically:
3 :29-30 and Chapter 4:1-9
" 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4
1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."
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Our belief in God, Our Faith in God is the thing that makes us righteous in God's eyes, and therfore makes us acceptable for heaven. Because, if we look at the whole council of God, we find that our own righteousness is nothing but "filthy rags" to God.
Ephesian 2:16-22 tells us that Christ reconciles those before the cross with those after the cross, those people of "faith", to himself:
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. AND ARE BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND THE PROPHETS, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CHIEF CORNER STONE; 21. IN WHOM ALL THE BUILDING FITLY FRAMED TOGETHER GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE OF THE LORD:
22. In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER FOR AN HABITATION OF GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT.
Hebrews Chapter 4 tells us that God supernaturally, before the foundation of the world, God took care of the sin problem for all that would believe on HIM.
"Hebrews 4:1-3
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
In conclusion, we do not worship a God of Division, dividing those before the cross from those after it. We worship a God who loves us and has wanted to restore mankind to HIMSELF,BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. God, in His foreknowledge knew that man would sin, and some how, supernaturally, died for the sin of the World before the World began.
That is the God we serve, not some puny, man-made God that is placed in a box by the sin nature of man.
God bless,
Stever :-)
The lambs that the OT Jews sacrficed to God were a picture of the Saviour to come.Think about this. What cleansing power does an lamb have, anyways? It's just an animal.
You are limiting God within time. God is not limited within time. He created time. "In the beginning...". God is outside of time, though He works within it.
Jesus is able to cleanse humanity by His blood 2000 years after His death; why can't he cleanse humanity 4000 years before His death?
Jesus died on that cross for the sins of the entire world, regardless of time-- Not only the people after Him.
Chuck, If it was the Blood of Jesus shed as an atonement by the animals in the OT as you posit, why was it that righteous man died in his sin, perhaps waiting for the promise of Messiah? Why when he died he could not enter directly into heaven; directly into the presence of God?
Orm
Lets open it up with the question why was the blood sacrifice required if faith in God satisfied the issue of justfication?
As we know crimes against God require restitution be made. "There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood". From the following scriptures it seems God considers blood to be sacred.
"He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight". Psa 72:14
"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints." Psa 116:15
God has set it apart and reserved it for the purpose of atonement.
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement", Lev 17:11.
Could I do one withut the other? i.e. offer sacrifices for the atoning of my sins in faithlessness?
Would there be any point? Without true faith in God, there is no heartfelt wish to be cleansed is there? I know pagans offer blood sacrifices but in the end they don't get life from it.
Linda
I can't argue with any of that, Linda. But why the blood of animals and not another human -- after all both were stained by sin's penalty and God eventually allowed one Human we know to offer Himself. Why, at this time, did God appoint animals, and that only a select few, and not allow another human to do the thing? Why animals? There is something in this that, if I'm correct, will lead us somewhere in our thinking to enrich us in Christ Jesus.
Note: None of the animals offered were predatory by nature. To the contrary, they were quite the opposite.
:-)rm
But why the blood of animals and not another human---
I don't know the answer to this and it is even more puzzling that there will be animal sacrifice in the millenium temple.
In His Love
Linda
Stever posts:
What you are being presented with here by Ormly and Linda is Pentecostal teaching.
The Pentecostal Church is behind the teaching that only those born AFTER the crucifixion are saved by Christ's shed blood.
They are also behind the false teaching that the Christian Church has replaced Israel in regards to God's plan for this earth. My Bible tells me not to be arrogant, because as a Christian I am just a branch that is grafted, that is on to the Jewish Tree.
What you are hearing on this thread is the Pentecostal slant, the Pentecostal false teaching of God's plan for the redemption of mandkind.
They will not answer the announcement of John the Baptist when he proclaimed:
Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Not part of the world. Not certain people in the world. Not certain ethnic groups in the world. All sin of all the World is what he came to take away.
The only that Christ's work on the Cross at Calvary, and at the resurrection gets rid of anyone's sin is by our belief and by our faith in him. I, who live after the cross am saved from all sin, past, present and future once I come to belief in Him. Those that lived before the Cross are saved from all of their past sin by their belief in the Messiah, the seed of the woman, who would come and redeem fallen man to Himself.
God bless,
Stever
Stever, I'm sorry to have to point this out but you've attributed to me beliefs that I don't have. I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, quite the opposite, and stated on one of the posts that Jesus Christ did come to take away the sins of the whole world. I have no idea how you came to all these conclusions but they are wrong.
I pray the Lord God will bless you and keep you, always.
Linda
linda7 wrote:
Stever, I'm sorry to have to point this out but you've attributed to me beliefs that I don't have. I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, quite the opposite, and stated on one of the posts that Jesus Christ did come to take away the sins of the whole world. I have no idea how you came to all these conclusions but they are wrong.I pray the Lord God will bless you and keep you, always.
Linda
I pray the Lord will reveal somethings to him that will bring rectification to his thinking.
:-Drm
Ormly wrote:
What was salvation in the Old Testament?
[b]Note:
Unbelief - (noun): rejection of belief.
Non-belief - (noun): the absence of belief
All men are only condemned or justified by God in the New Testament for their rejection or accepting of Christ and in the Old Testament They were only condemned or justified by God for their unbelief and disobedience or belief and obedience to HIM. (See Romans & 1:18-20, 2:14, 15) [b]Galatians 3:6
Job knew that there needed to have peace with GOD[b]Job 9:33
Even though there was none yet, Job had faith that HE would come[b]Job 19:25
And also for the non-Jews [b]Jonah 3:5
Their fast was the obedience.
Before the flood they all believed for it was plain to all since Adam would have been alive with them, or he would have been known for his fame of being the first man ever created.
The forgivness was based on belief and obediance. God was accounting their forgiveness on what HE will do on the cross.
[b]Revelation 13:8[b]the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world
In the Old Testament there was a prescribed way to have sins forgiven. What was it?
So it wasn't the blood and sacrifices that God was looking, but of who it forshadowed.
This question is not clear, please restate the question.was that salvation as mentioned in the NT?
What was the difference, if any?
[b]Psalm 40:6-8[b]:7[b]:8[b]thy law is within my heart.[b]Hebrews 10:16
The only difference is where the law is writhen.
The Old Testement is on two stone tablets.
The New Testement is writen on our hearts.
If it was the Blood of Jesus shed as an atonement by the animals in the OT as you posit, why was it that righteous man died in his sin, perhaps waiting for the promise of Messiah? Why when he died he could not enter directly into heaven; directly into the presence of God?
If I may answer;
There was the fulfillment of everything to come yet.[b]Luke 12:50
That baptizm is his death and reserection, wich is that fulfillment.
[b]John 19:30[b]It is finished:
Before the cross, evrything was a foreshadowing, but, after the cross is the actuality.
[b]Isaiah 45:13[b]and he shall let go my captives,
The captives here are the ones is Abrahams boosm.
Hi Ormly and everyone else.
Ormly, you asked this question and I would like to share my own understanding if perhaps it will be helpfull,
Why, at this time, did God appoint animals, and that only a select few, and not allow another human to do the thing? Why animals?
My understanding of this is that animals were offered becuase they were not moral agents that were liable for sin. There was a requirement for beasts to be put to death if they killed, but I do not believe this was for the animal's 'sin' of killing(Exodus 21:28-36 for example) at least not in the sense of guilt?
Becuase man is a moral agent responsible for his sins, and because each man has personal guilt, no man could die as a substitute for the sins of others as he would only be 'paying' for his own(See also Hebrews 7:27-28 in regards to this and the priesthood).
This following verse, particualrly the last part, perhaps speaks at least indirectly to this
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Also we see this in the offerings that were to be offered 'without blemish'; I think we can understand this as relating ultimately to being free from guilt and remember too that these sacrifices were pointing towards the final and consumate sacrifice of the Lord.
I hope this will be helpfull to the discussion.
Chris
linda7 wrote:But why the blood of animals and not another human---
I don't know the answer to this and it is even more puzzling that there will be animal sacrifice in the millenium temple.
In His Love
Linda
Thank you, Linda.
I don't believe we can fathom the way God choses to do all things by the use of only our common sense, however, the scripture does give some things that we may glean for our enlightenment/enrichment into Jesus, Son of man who, by submiting to the Father of Himself now respresents us in heaven as the first of the first born Divine-Humans, full of what He was before anything was and that equal to the Father in all His Glory.(Jn17).
So why the animals sacrifices of the OT?
Hebrews 10:4 (NASB-U)
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The writer is correct and is also including the hereditary SIN stain of Adam which is the source of man's difficulties.
Job 33:9 (NASB-U)
'I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.
Job could very easily have been expressing the thoughts of many sacrificed animals.
Romans 5:13 (KJV)
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
These animals knew no law consequently there was no sin to bring guilt upon them. They indeed had a clean conscience, ergo, blameless creatures.
In essence these were the closest pure blood offerings that man could give God as offerings for his daily/yearly sins. As the scripture reminds us: "Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness for sin" -- but because it was NOT perfect human blood it could only cover the sin[s]of man not deal with the SIN question from Adam' trangression that demanded a new creation for a cure. Instead of destroying man when Adam sinned and beginning again God, put into motion His plan from eternity for reconciling man to Himself. Enter the Man Jesus, full of the Holy Ghost.
Though much more can be posted I hope this bit helps you....and others.
Warmly,
Ormly
PS. This should give a fresh perspective to our understanding of the Cain and Abel account.
Absolutely, Chris -- and thanks for the insight. Thanks also for the added scripture that lends itself to this.
:-Drm
linda7 wrote:
Stever, I'm sorry to have to point this out but you've attributed to me beliefs that I don't have. I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, quite the opposite, and stated on one of the posts that Jesus Christ did come to take away the sins of the whole world. I have no idea how you came to all these conclusions but they are wrong.I pray the Lord God will bless you and keep you, always.
Linda
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Stever's response:
What I have posted addresses your belief, along with that of Ormly, that the Jews are not saved by Faith, and that the Christian is not saved by Faith.
My reponse is to your views that there is a DIVISION between Old Testament believers in Messiah, and New Testament believers in Messiah.
My response is to your beliefs in regards to the fact that some people are "righteous" in their own flesh.
Why not respond specifically to my post, and that of Logic's as well, point by point and counter it with Bible Scripture that supports your view.
Neither you nor Ormly is interested in doing that. Why don't you answer the Book of Hebrews, that tells us we have a great group of witnesses, urging us on to the finish line. Who are these witnesses? Abel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samson, and many, many others, all from the other side of the cross.
I really think that neither you nor Ormly read past the Gospels, and never read the Pauline Epistles. If you tell me that you read them, then I must assume that you do not understand the truths that are revealed to us there.
God bless,
Stever :-)
P.S.
ADDRESS THIS ONE, PLEASE:
Genesis 6:9-22
22. And Noah did everything as God commanded him.
—Genesis 6:22,
Psalm 46
1. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.
—Psalm 46:1-3,
Romans 1:16-17; 3:22b-31
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
—Romans 1:17, 3:22-24
Matthew 7:21-29
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23
The law saved no one, but faith in the Messiah to come did save. Today, our faith in the Messiah that came saves us.
:-)
Though much more can be posted I hope this bit helps you ....and others
In His Love
Linda
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