Mega-churches...Biblical?

Hi all!

I'm am brand new member here but have been reading, enjoying, and been edified by many of the tdiscussions that are on SI. I'm encouraged by the openness and revelation knowledge that so many of you have. Glory to God!

Just a quick background...I've been listening to a lot of Ravenhill's sermons and have listened to a few others like Katz, Yohannen, Conlon, Wilkerson, etc. I'm in strong agreement with Ray Comfort's teachings and am desiring to open air preach...to become a revolutionary for the Kingdom of God.

My concern:

(Please suffer and forgive me for my lack of scripture. I'm a relatively new Christian (4 years) but I'm not trying to excuse myself)

My church (I'm not a pastor, just a member of the Body) has just recently purchased 27 acres of land in order to build a new church building. Our congregation is approx. 1000 people strong and I'm having doubts as to the legitimacy of spending millions of dollars to accommodate more people. I'm also leary of hyping up and appointing a certain day to give an offering for a building fund. This was justified by the example in the OT where the Levites placed a chest next to the altar and cut a hole in the top for people to give gifts for the rebuilding of the temple)

Personally, I don't think that a church should spend obscene amounts of money to have a bigger building, better sound system, more comfortable pews, coffee shops (a monstrosity in churches, I think), etc.

I've been approached with the reasoning from the OT that Solomon's temple had tonnes of gold and other precious materials and that the congregation of Israel was around 2 million and that is justification for having decked out mega-churches. I've tried to find evidence of this in the NT but I just can't find it. I indeed find the exact opposite that the early church met in houses.

I also think of how Moses chose to suffer affliction rather than to live like a king in Egypt, and I think that there is a lot more 'profitable' investments that the Church can put her money to...namely, missions, helping the needs of the poor, orphans, widows in your own city/congregation. I think of what end we're seeking when we build huge churches...running the church like a business that even the world would give credit to and applaud. Shouldn't we be such a different breed of people that the world would have nothing good to say about us. Jesus was hated by the world, right? Why are we trying to be so buddy-buddy and accommodating to a world system that we're to be separate but not separated from?

(Please don't get me wrong...I'm not insubordinate to my pastors' vision nor will I come against them to hinder it. I'm not in a position of authority in the house and will not overstep lest God should rebuke me for rebelling. I pray for my pastors, encourage them and support what they do. The Spirit doesn't convict me of secret rebellion either.)

Brad Wright
Edmonton, Canada

There is nothing wrong with a church building a larger building, even in the millions of dollars, should it deem it necessary and believe itself to have the Lord's direction. My only real beef with large mega-churches is the tendency to hero-worship by the congregation, and a super-star mentality that the preacher often carries. Sadly, many of these churches ended up being built around super-charismatic individual, who, when they move on elsewhere, the church has a tendency to fall apart and split unless the church can swap out the one super-star with another. When a church centers around a super-star, it's not centered around Christ.

KingJimmy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a church building a larger building, even in the millions of dollars, should it deem it necessary and believe itself to have the Lord's direction. My only real beef with large mega-churches is the tendency to hero-worship by the congregation, and a super-star mentality that the preacher often carries. Sadly, many of these churches ended up being built around super-charismatic individual, who, when they move on elsewhere, the church has a tendency to fall apart and split unless the church can swap out the one super-star with another. When a church centers around a super-star, it's not centered around Christ.

I think it is a fine line between excellence and just being over the top.

I dont see a problem with this, but a vast majority of these church's (probably near 95%) water down their doctrine completely. As long as they are totally surrendered to christ, and teaching his word, there isnt a problem with that.

David Wilkerson has a church that I believe has eight thousand people who attend(it might be 5,000, I'm not entirely sure), and chuck smith have very large church's, but dont water down the gospel.

I question the validity of the whole modern church system, even small churches.

For example, did you know that "pews" were not used until the year AD1400? They are based on the court system of the day.

Great, so our modern day churches are based on a worldly court system.

This is just one of the many things one could pick on, I guess...

:-( :-o

I somewhat agree. It seems to me that all of these churches that are building their church according to the NT pattern are pulling all of their inspiration for advancement from the world.

The modern church tends to focus on what my pastor refers to as "bodies, bucks and bricks" or to describe it a bit differently is an outward manifestation of success. This group of believers has "arrived." We're somebody. All snares of the devil that would destroy the spiritual health of the church.

I'm not being accusatory here because I have been to Times Square Church and have listen to hundreds of sermons from the pulpit there and it's quite a magnificant building and the Spirit of God lovingly convicts in that house. Rather I'm simply saying that it's quite a temptation to turn this into a flesh-driven thing.

It's also a bit disconcerting to me the number of churches that go in huge amounts of debt to finance their churches. If it's something the Lord God of heaven has ordered, wouldn't he pay for it? I'm finding in my own walk that if it's something Jesus has ordered, He will pay for it.

Obviously we should look at the individual congregations as I would say that Times Square is an exception and not the norm unfortunately.
The one disheartening thing that I notice is that there is rarely a testimony to the Lord in our locality(neighborhoods, schools etc.), and it has become more of a come to my church rahter than come to my Lord approach to soul winning.
The New Testament shows us clearly that the people were interested in establishing congregations within the community they were in, thus maintaining a witness of Christ to their locale, also providing accountability as they were with one another frequently. I have noticed that people will drive 45 minutes to an hour to go to a building, and forget completely about where they live, as if the Lord had not placed them there.
If you look at countries like India, or China there are little village congregations scattered throughout the land. These provide a testimony to the neighbors, and thus people are brought to Christ.
I have not called these buildings "churches" for this purpose- the church is an organism of living stones, a living body. Yet to alarge degree it has been made simply a building, or even in some cases a Christian "ghetto" where we all speak Christianese to each other, and keep everything closed within four walls.
I reccommend reading "The Journal Of George Fox" as he has some interesting things to say about this sort of thing.
I here must also say that this is a different way of thinking for me, as I once was of the get them to church mentality, then I began to see that we are the church, and they need Him not my certain doctrines or interpretations.

I'm in agreement with the person above me.

It doesn't make sense to make billion dollar buildings for a God that, "dwelleth not in temples made with hands".

People are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not buildings. Constructing a beautiful, golden modern day temple is probably not what God wants us to do. He desires moreso that we be refined (by His Holy Spirit within us) that we may be pure as gold.

Check out pauls exhortation to the rich in 1 Timothy 6,

1Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

2And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, [b]supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

6But godliness with contentment is great gain.

7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.[/b]

12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

[b]17Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.[/b]

20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

I bold printed some of the parts that gets right to the point. But the context really is key.

God bless you all and keep pressing on after our Lord Jesus Christ!

Adam

**EDIT** This is the edited, less of Adam, more of God, edition of this post.

I think that there is a lot more 'profitable' investments that the Church can put her money to...namely, missions, helping the needs of the poor, orphans, widows in your own city/congregation.

You are right in my opinion. However, in defense of church leaders and board members, there are very real market forces opposing these mercy ministries from right inside the church...I find that well meaning Church leaders are unable to do the things in your list because these poor people groups can't help pay the bills. Simply put,the money that churches raise through donations is for the purpose of accommodating more donors. If the people in our churches wanted to feed the poor, and provide for widows more then building worshipnasiums with basketball courts and cafeterias, the pastors would be forced to adapt like any financial entity.

I'm not being a cynic here. We have to realize that we don't have state funded churches, so by default our churches are funded through satisfied patrons, the choosey faithful. As long as we congregations agree to fund these costly building projects they will continue. The economic pressure that many leaders face is working against the good desires you have expressed.

I'm sure many pastors are among the most dissolusioned by this delimma.

MC

I know I am preaching to the choir, but I felt led to speak these things.

http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.239

Thank you for posting that, it made me chuckle. Sadly because it was true.

Set the priority proper, and the symptoms will be corrected

This is something worth repeating.

By the way Brad, since you are relatively new here to this site I would like to recommend the excellent thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4793&forum=35#48746]What is a church?[/url]

While it has much to sift through, there may be some useful bits and pieces that will relate to your present line of questions and concerns.

MC

Ormly,
Preach it brother! Just this very morning before reading this, I wrote about the "narrow way" and the false prophets who claim a great revival in the latter days. The Word says "few are they who find it". A remnant if you will. Why? Because it requires obedience. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments".
It is impossible to be "like Jesus" and not be obedient. Jesus was obedeint in all things, even death on the cross. If we are being shaped and molded into His image, how is it we are not being shaped and molded into obedience, no compromise. Finding a "gospel" that feels good has long been the quest of flesh motivated man. The cross does not "feel good". Get over it and get on with it. If we are entered into His life, we will also enter into His sufferings. If we have been crucified with Christ, we will also reign with Him. If we have "NOT" been crucified with Christ, we shall not reign with Him. He is known to us, and we are known to Him only through faith in His shed blood. We had better make it our business to know Him, and obey Him. More, He had better know us. "I never knew you" is not an option for eternal life. Being known of Him is an absolute certainty for entering into eternity with God. We had better make it our business of living to be absolutely certain we are known by Him and that our service is well done.

with fear and trembling,

"O"

Hi, Folks, I thought you'd like to know about this megachurch - built by Spurgeon.

The following is taken from Wikapedia.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, commonly C.H. Spurgeon, (June 19, 1834 – January 31, 1892) was a British Baptist preacher.

In 1852, he became pastor of the small Baptist church at Waterbeach, Cambridgeshire, and in 1854, after preaching three months on probation and just four years after his conversion, Spurgeon, then only 20, was called to the pastorate of London's famed New Park Street Chapel, Southwark (formerly pastored by the Particular Baptist theologian John Gill). Within a few months of his call his powers as a preacher made him famous.

The congregation quickly outgrew their building, moved to Exeter Hall, then to Surrey Music Hall. In these venues Spurgeon frequently preached to audiences numbering more than 10,000 — all in the days before electronic amplification. At twenty-two Spurgeon was the most popular preacher of the day.

In 1861 the congregation moved permanently to the newly constructed purpose-built Metropolitan Tabernacle at Elephant and Castle, seating five thousand people with standing room for another thousand. Some say that the Metropolitan Tabernacle is considered the first modern "megachurch."

If you've ever read some of Spurgeon's sermons, you'd have to admit that they didn't sell by the ton because the people just wanted their ears tickled. They were so in-depth that I doubt any church could endure them today.

I'd be curious, has anyone checked out the megachurches in Korea?

Diane

If I may paraphrase, as in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the second comming of man. Where was the "mega-church" in Noah's day?
In Moses day, he and Aaron were about the only ones God had a personal relationship with. Where was the mega-church? At the foot of the mountain. "You go up and talk to God, Moses, we'll wait right here".
The church will not prevail because it has a mighty number. The church will prevail because we know and serve Almight God.

Immersed in Him,

"0"