Trying to Tread Tenderly

sermonindex Jun 19, 2006

Beloved brethren, I hope I'm not being oversensitive with the title of this thread. This is not my school ma'am voice either. I'm aware I'm treading on tender ground, and all I'm asking is that you read this introduction carefully, and think about it. Maybe no-one will post here, but, I still want to share what is on my heart, and I hope it will be a blessing to some.

It seems clear to me, having been a person who was overcome with confusion every time she opened scripture (once upon a time), to now be gradually getting a grasp of its power to bring me closer to God's heart and mind, that whatever is 'wrong' with the Bible we have now, God is not overcome by its defficiencies. He still makes it work, and uses it immeasurably to communicate Truth to us.

Knowing it is only three days since a thread was locked, which had discussed textual matters with increasing circularity, it is with a certain amount of trepidation I post.

I see that the examination of a text can be removed right out of the realm of the Spirit; or, that one can acknowledge the witness of the Spirit to truth which God ministers through ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~His[/b][/i] illumination of that which is written.

I am talking about that ~~[i]~~mystical[/i] ministry of Truth to each individual, which God (by the Spirit) is able to bring through His written word, which often, we struggle to improve upon when we try share in our own words, what we have heard or seen.... ideas, which are tricky to phrase, ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~because of[/i][/b] our ~~[u]~~previous lack[/u] of understanding.

I believe it is important for each believer to be able to communicate what God is showing them, because (I believe) receiving insight and communicating it is important to our growth - both individuals and the whole Body... the attempt has to be made. To make it easier, we often resort to familiar language, but that may give a false impression of what we really mean.

Let me illustrate this with a word picture.

I have a diamond, which has been cut a certain way. But, it is flawed. Not only that, but, it is not brilliantly white. It is golden. I like it because it's different, but, when the light shines through it, it always shows up the flaw and that it is golden. However, it's flat surface flashes beautifully, just the way it is supposed to. You could say that part is like a mirror on the outside. Nevertheless, it ~~[u]~~is[/u] ~~[b]~~a prism[/b]. There is a lot more to it than its polished surface.

Now, just suppose, every time the light shone through my diamond, it destroyed a tiny bit of the flaw, and made it disappear completely and permanently. That would wonderful! I would have it standing in the light all day long. But gradually, as I looked at it day after day, it would not be the diamond I started with, it would be a ~~[i]~~better[/i] diamond! Moreover, the way the light danced off the flaw would be changing all the time, till eventually, the light would be able to penetrate unhindered, till it glanced off the farthest facets which are supposed to give it its sparkle.

Now, that is what happens to us as we read scripture - if we could say our lives are like prisms...... The Light enters and affects what we ~~[i]~~see[/i] - ~~[b]~~our comprehension[/b] - and what is seen in us - ~~[b]~~our witness to His presence[/b].

By the time ~~[i]~~we[/i] are releasing that light, it has been changed into a spectrum, though none of the light is truly lost. Some of it has been redirected depending on how it bounces off or through the densities it encounters.

In this 'picture' of THE Light being able to transform permanently the prism through which it passes, we have an ever-changing but never inaccurate nor untrue representation of how God speaks to our lives through the word, by which we are not the same afterwards - even if we can never explain fully how we have been changed.

End of preamble.

Now, I want to say something about Tyndale's (1534) New Testament, which has been put into modern English spelling by the man named below.

'David Daniell is Emeritus Professor of English in the University of London. He is the author of ~~[u]~~William Tyndale: A Biography[/u], and the editor of ~~[u]~~Tyndale's Old Testament[/u].' ~~[i]~~(Note taken from the back cover.)[/i]

Tyndale's New Testament
1989 Yale University Press, New Haven and London. Reprinted 1995

ISBN 0-300-04419-4 (hbk)
ISBN 0-300-06580-9 (pbk)

I do not wish to discuss the implications of the verse I'm quoting, for the discussion currently going on in 'Marriage, Divorce, ReMarrige - Toward a Biblical Perspective', nor to raise again which manuscript Tyndale may have been using. If you want to discuss either of these other aspects, please join the thread aforementioned where I shall be posting Romans 7:1 - 6 later, or, start a new thread to discuss which Greek Tyndale used. Thank you.

What I am more interested in, is that Tyndale has translated Paul's argument as one continuous train of logical exposition. This is the ~~[i]~~first[/i] time I have read Romans 7:1 and it has made perfect sense in context of both the preceding chapter, and the verses which follow it.

You may laugh, but when I read

'the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth' (KJV)....

I always think that is ~~[i]~~obvious[/i] - if the man is dead, of course the law has no dominion over him.

But, that ~~[u]~~doesn't make sense in the context[/u], because Paul is writing about the ~~[b]~~law[/b] being dead - ~~[i]~~not[/i] the man.

Here's Tyndale's rendering or Romans 7:1.

Remember ye not brethren (I speak to them that know the law) how that ~~[u]~~the law hath power over a man as long as ~~[b]~~it endureth[/b][/u]?

Isn't that interesting?

Now, I do have one more question.

Do you agree that this makes ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~more[/b][/i] sense of the context?

Logic Jun 19, 2006

Editrd:
dorcas wrote:

What I am more interested in, is that Tyndale has translated Paul's argument as one continuous train of logical exposition. This is the first time I have read Romans 7:1 and it has made perfect sense in context of both the preceding chapter, and the verses which follow it.

Tyndale's rendering:
Chapter 7
1 Remember ye not brethren (I speake to them yt know the lawe) how that the lawe hath power over a man as longe as ~~[b]~~it endureth[/b]?
Wyclifs' rendering:
Chapter 7
1 Britheren, whethir ye knowun not; for Y speke to men `that knowen the lawe; for the lawe hath lordschip in a man, as long tyme as ~~[b]~~it lyueth[/b]?

But, that doesn't make sense in the context, because Paul is writing about the law being dead - not the man.

Not exactly, it say she is bound by ~~[b]~~the law ~~[u]~~to[/u] her husband[/b].
Her husband is not the law, but it is the element that binds her to him.

Furthermore, The Law will never pass away as Jesus said.
~~[b]~~Matthew 5:18[/b] [color=990000]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/color]
~~[b]~~Matthew 24:35[/b] [color=990000] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.[/color]

The word endure is a bad rendering fo the Greek ζάω - zaō, dzah'-o: ~~[b]~~to live.[/b]
for a couple of reasons:
Law does not die, so it does not make sence to say, "as long as it lives.
And
Endure is not zaō, but it is eather three other greek words; πρόσκαιρος - proskairos, pros'-kahee-ros: endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
or
ὑπομένω - hupomenō, hoop-om-en'-o: persevere, abide, endure.
or
μένω - menō, men'-o: abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry

sermonindex Jun 19, 2006

Remember ye not brethren (I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath power over a man as long as it endureth?

Isn't that interesting?
Now, I do have one more question.
Do you agree that this makes more sense of the context?

very interesting, dorcas.

something I did just notice is the word 'he' there in verse 7:1 isnt showing up in my TR...almost like it was an added word (as we see often in tranlation).

I also see some of the other commentators using 'it liveth' instead of "he liveth', meaning the law, not the man...

Was the word 'he' added there to the text showing the man when it was meant to show the law ("It") ?

"As long as he liveth" - ~~[b]~~The Greek here may mean either “as he liveth,” or” as it liveth,” that is, the law.[/b] But our translation has evidently expressed the sense. The sense is, that death releases a man from the laws by which he was bound in life. It is a general principle, relating to the laws of the land, the law of a parent, the law of a contract, etc. This general principle the apostle proceeds to apply in regard to the Law of God.
-Barnes
~~[b]~~As long as he liveth?[/b] - Or, as long as It liveth; law does not extend its influence to the dead, nor do abrogated laws bind. It is all the same whether we understand these words as speaking of a law abrogated, so that it cannot command; or of its objects being dead, so that it has none to bind. In either case the law has no force.
-Clarke

================
"liveth; for the word "liveth" ~~[b]~~may refer either to man or to the law[/b]. The law may be said to live, when it is in full force, and to be dead, when it is abrogated and disannulled; now whilst it lives, or is in force, it has dominion over a man; it can require and command obedience of him, and in case of disobedience can condemn him, and inflict punishment on him: and this power it has also as long as the man lives who is under it, but when he is dead it has no more dominion over him; then "the servant is free from his master", Job_3:19; that is, from the law of his master; and children are free from the law of their parents, the wife from the law of her husband, and subjects from the law of their prince. This is so clear a point that none can doubt of it. The Jews have a saying (d), that
"when a man is dead, he becomes חפשי מן תורה ומן המצות, free from the law, and from the commands.''
-Gill

Honestly, it does make sense given the context of the passage.
Im not doubting the bible translators or anything...but it is interesting...

KingJimmy Jun 19, 2006

My personal translation of Romans 7:1:

Or do you not know brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is ruling over man as long as he is living.

The verb "Ze" (from Zoe) is a Present Active Indicative, 3rd person singular. In Greek, 3rd person singular verbs can apply to "he/she/it," with the gender being determined by context. As it is grammatically speaking, the word even for law (nomos) is a masculine word along with man (antrhopos). The word "he" is not added, for it is included in the fact the verb is 3rd person singular, which by definition must speak of somebody or something.

Who has died here in this context? In this context "you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ." (v.4) We died to the dominion of the Law THROUH the body of Christ, whom we were united to in death. Having died with Christ, we are no longer bound to what the Law says, for it no longer has jurisdiction over we who have died. Since Christ was raised from the dead, we who were raised with Him through our union with Him, are free to live the life He has, one in the Spirit.

The Law is never described as dying. On the contrary, it is describe as being the instrument through which death comes as a judgment upon sin (Romans 7:7-12).

Christinyou Jun 19, 2006

Hi Linn,

ROM 7:1 Starts back in Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are dead to our first husband, which is Satan and him killing us by the Law. Christ is our new husband, and there is no adultry from the first husband.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

We no longer liveth. We were crucified with Christ and baptized into His death. We are dead to the law and Satan. We now live unto our new Husband, which is Christ. Married to another.

Romans 7:4-5 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The Law of our old husband being dead to us is no longer binding under the Law. The Law of our new husband, (Christ) is binding forever, by the Law of Love. The same applies to a dead husband or wife, in the world and remarrying. Death of a marriage, (divorce) does the same thing, it sets us free from the old husband or wife, who is now dead to the spouse of the divorced. That is why it says don't go back and marry and old spouse unless both are free to do so. Let them be reconciled to each other. In other words if the divorced spouses have been remarried and try to reconcile, it is the same as leaving Christ and going back to our old husband or wife, which is the Law and Satan and death. Even in this as a picture of Israel going back to Egypt. There is still even in this, Grace to bring even old spouses who have been married to another, back into the pureness of Christ Jesus and His life for the old spouses that only He can bring glory into.

This is a cherry bomb, it is getting close to the 4th of July. Becarefull, \\\\\\\\\\BBOOMBB/////

In Christ: Phillip

sermonindex Jun 20, 2006

Thanks all for your responses, which I've found helpful and provoking.... to further thought and comment.

FOC, your romp through three commentaries was comforting. I think Clarke is the most concise, particularly in bringing immediately to fore, the thought that a law can be brought to an end. This (its abrogation) applies to the Mosaic Law, definitely.

But, Logic, your reference to Matt 5:18, that the law will never pass till all has been fulfilled, got me thinking another question.....

Which law?

This brought me to one answer for sure. We know from the end of Galatians 3 that 'the law' is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ..... and that it is for the 'lawless' - defined in 1 Tim 1:9, 10:

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for lawless and insubordinate, for ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Then I got to thinking, maybe part of the whole ~~[b]~~law of God's love[/b], is, ~~[u]~~the law of sin and death[/u]. (Rom 8)

KingJimmy, I was hoping you'd explain that to me, especially this:

The verb "Ze" (from Zoe) is a Present Active Indicative, 3rd person singular. In Greek, 3rd person singular verbs can apply to "he/she/it," with the gender being determined by context. As it is grammatically speaking, the word even for law (nomos) is a masculine word along with man (antrhopos). The word "he" is not added, for it is included in the fact the verb is 3rd person singular, which by definition must speak of somebody or something.....
The Law is never described as dying. On the contrary, it is describe as being the instrument through which death comes as a judgment upon sin (Romans 7:7-12).

Thanks. I loved all that detail!

There is an interesting marginal note in Tyndale beside Romans 3:19, 20 which says ~~[i]~~The law justifieth not before God but uttereth sin only[/i]. I love that 'uttereth sin only'! What a great way to express that truth!

Your exposition of the meaning of the passage was helpful, too.

Phillip, I also took the meaning of this section back to chapter 6:4, but just to check, I did a word search on law, and found he first mentions it in chapter two! Then I saw how many other references to the law there are. Surely he is talking about the Mosaic law, when drawing us away from it towards the law of faith (Rom 3)?

It think it is here that your discussion about marriage can make most sense, but, I want to reserve what I would say about that for the other thread...

All those mentions of 'law' reminded me of many years ago in Edinburgh, when I knew a law student who was also a Christian, who said the whole of the first year had been instructed to read the whole of Romans, to see and learn how a legal argument ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~should[/b][/i] be conducted!

It's a kind of paradox that one of the longest epistles defending ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~liberty[/b] in Chirst[/u], through faith, should be used as a text for students of ~~[i]~~law[/i] to pick up something of how to present a well-reasoned legal case.

Logic Jun 21, 2006

Christinyou wrote:

We are dead to our first husband, which is Satan and him killing us by the Law. Christ is our new husband, and there is no adultry from the first husband.

Satan is not the husband that we are free from the law of in ~~[b]~~Romans 7:2[/b] [color=990000]For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the ~~[b]~~law ~~[u]~~of[/u] her husband[/b].[/color]

The word "of" gives us a clue to who the husband is.

You see, the husband would be sin as we read in ~~[b]~~Romans 7:25[/b] [color=990000]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself ~~[b]~~serve[/b] the ~~[b]~~law ~~[u]~~of[/u] God[/b]; but with the flesh the ~~[b]~~law ~~[u]~~of[/u] sin[/b].[/color]

We sevre God and husbands and as this next verse sais we seved sin.
~~[b]~~Romans 6:6-7[/b] [color=990000]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should not ~~[b]~~be serving sin.[/b]
:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.[/color]

It was the righteous requirements of the law that bound us; ~~[b]~~Colossians 2:14[/b] [color=990000]The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross.[/color]

The new Husband is God the Son.

Satan has no law, but sin does and God surely does.

We are dead to sin and alive to Christ, not dead to satan.

sermonindex Jun 21, 2006

Didn't God ~~[i]~~need[/i] to give the law only because He wanted to make us understand His heart - how we should treat Him and others?

And the law succeeded in making us aware of the gulf between the performance of our hearts and His.... which He calls ~~[i]~~sin[/i]?

(NKJV) John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Hebrews 2

He Himself likewise shared in the same [flesh and blood], that ~~[u]~~through ~~[b]~~death[/b] He might destroy ~~[b]~~him who had the power of death, that is, the devil[/b], 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage[/u].

Phillip, I see it is possible to make the statement Logic quoted, but, it is not quite biblical language. Although many would admit to having fellowship with sin and death before they were saved, marriage to Satan would be a very extreme and specific circumstance, because of his limitations.

Whereas being made free from sin and death, we ~~[b]~~are all[/b] made to drink into one Spirit, and seek to become single-eyed and single-hearted towards the Lord Jesus, who is alive forevermore.

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Christinyou Jun 21, 2006

Ephesians 2:1-6 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If we were quickened together with Christ by God, which gives us our new Godly nature, who were we quickened with before we believed? We were quickened with by Adams choice because he believed Satan and we became of our father the devil. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This was our old husband, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" The Spirit of Christ our new husband, and the spirit of Satan our old husband. The old husband took over and we became his bride. He used the Law and in lying, put us in bondage. "Surely you will be just like God." The first law of God, "don't eat of the tree in the middle of the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Nobody likes to think of Satan as their husband but that is exactly what he is to the children of disobedience. He is their prince.

Praise God through Christ Jesus we are divorced from our first husband and married to our new Husband Jesus Christ and we are seated in Heavenly places with Him, we are no longer in law of our first husband. That divorce being the death of our first husband and free to marry Jesus Christ and be his new bride, no longer under the Law of disobedience. We are now alive unto God by His Son that is now our nature, whom we can now be joined together with and seek our new Father in Law, with His Nature and not only by Christ in us but being legally adopted in the the Family of our New Father.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou Jun 21, 2006

God gave the Law to show us we needed a new heart, His Heart. We that believe now have this new Heart, it is the Heart of Christ birthed in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic Jun 22, 2006

Christinyou wrote:

Nobody likes to think of Satan as their husband but that is exactly what he is to the children of disobedience. He is their prince.

Could you show in Scripture where you get that we were merried to Satan?

Praise God through Christ Jesus we are divorced from our first husband and married to our new Husband Jesus Christ

Scripture sais that we are dead to sin, not divorced.

Remember that divorce is only aloud when there is infedelity.
~~[b]~~Matthew 19:9[/b] [color=990000]And I tell you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except her fornication, and marries another woman, commits adultery."[/color]

Phillip, I see it is possible to make the statement Logic quoted, but, it is not quite biblical language.

What do you mean "biblical language"?

Although many would admit to having fellowship with sin and death before they were saved,

κοινωνία - koinōnia - koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
I've never have had fellowship with Satan, but I was in his grips.

Christinyou Jun 22, 2006

"""Scripture sais that we are dead to sin, not divorced.

Remember that divorce is only aloud when there is infedelity.
Matthew 19:9 And I tell you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except her fornication, and marries another woman, commits adultery." """

There was no divorce for infidelity, they were stoned or died from the test of infidelity.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou Jun 22, 2006

Ephesians 5:11-15 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

11. unfruitful works of darkness--Sins are terminated in themselves, and therefore are called "works," not "fruits" (Ga 5:19,22). Their only fruit is that which is not in a true sense fruit (De 32:32), namely, "death" (Ro 6:21; Ga 6:8). Plants cannot bear "fruit" in the absence of light. Sin is "darkness," and its parent is the prince of darkness (Eph 6:12)Ephesians 6:11-12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places..
Graces, on the other hand, as flourishing in "the light," are reproductive, and abound in fruits; which, as harmoniously combining in one whole, are termed (in the singular) "the FRUIT of the Spirit" (Eph 5:9).

The devil did not make me do it. He is the progenitor of all that I can do that is evil. Fellowship unfruitful works of darkness. Fellowship in this scripture is: 4790. sugkoinoneo
Search for G4790 in KJVSL
sugkoinwnew sugkoinoneo soong-koy-no-neh'-o

from 4862 and 2841; to share in company with, i.e. co-participate in:--communicate (have fellowship) with, be partaker of.

Our nature before The Cross of Christ was Satan nature, not God nature. Satan nature came from believing Satan and not God even though it was a lie. All mankind then became Satan natured. At believing unto salvation, Satan nature out and God nature in, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

sermonindex Jun 22, 2006

Logic asked

dorcas had said: Phillip, I see it is possible to make the statement Logic quoted, but, it is not quite biblical language.
What do you mean "biblical language"?

I mean that scripture never refers to man as married to Satan.

I believe this is because he is a fallen spirit, and we are flesh and blood. His appearances as a serpent, or as an angel of light, are transformations of appearance but, he has no soul or flesh as we do.

Whereas, God could call Israel His bride, because of the forthcoming Messiah to whom He desired Israel to be married. Spiritually, there does have to be a death, as you pointed out, but I see where Phillip gets his 'divorce' idea, in that the Adversary is still alive, though powerless to influence the receipt of eternal life by believers.

Now that God's Son, Jesus the Messiah - the Word made Flesh - has conquered death - abolished death - we no longer need have fellowship with death, as we did when we were 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Eph 2:1, 2). He partook of flesh and blood, though. That is very important. Having been made in God's image originally, we are being restored to His image as we abide in Him through the Spirit. This is fellowship with the Father and with the Son. This is fellowship with Life Himself.

I do choose the word 'fellowship' deliberately, because we were completely cut off from fellowship with God, while we were still spiritually dead. There is a helpful picture in Romans 6 (Young)

4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.

5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

Here is a Greek interlinear: (this translation says '~~[u]~~from among[/u] the dead', which I think brings an aspect of His resurrection to us).

4 sunetafhmen (5648) {WE WERE BURIED} oun {THEREFORE} autw {WITH HIM} dia tou {BY} baptismatoV {BAPTISM} eiV ton {UNTO} qanaton {DEATH} ina {THAT} wsper {AS} hgerqh (5681) {WAS RAISED UP} cristoV {CHRIST} ek {FROM AMONG [THE]} nekrwn {DEAD} dia {BY} thV {THE} doxhV {GLORY} tou {OF THE} patroV {FATHER,} outwV {SO} kai {ALSO} hmeiV {WE} en {IN} kainothti {NEWNESS} zwhV {OF LIFE} peripathswmen (5661) {SHOULD WALK.} 5 ei {IF} gar {FOR} sumfutoi {CONJOINED} gegonamen (5754) {WE HAVE BECOME} tw {IN THE} omoiwmati {LIKENESS} tou {OF} qanatou {DEATH,} autou {HIS} alla {SO} kai {ALSO} thV {OF HIS} anastasewV {RESURRECTION} esomeqa (5704) {WE SHALL BE;}

The word 'conjoined' is similar to intercourse. Then, there is this from Tyndale, which keeps a picture which appears in other parts of the New Testament, similar to Young's 'planted', but perhaps even more powerful.

"We are buried with him by baptism for to die that likewise as Christ was raised up from death by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in a new life. For if we be ~~[b]~~graft[/b] in death like unto him, even so must we be in the resurrection."

This 'graft' analogy plays into the picture of the Vine (John 15), and the olive tree (Romans 9). If we abide in the Vine (Christ) we bear fruit. If we were 'graft' into death, then, we were having a type of fellowship with it, however unwillingly. Now, we have been cut off from death, and grafted into the Tree of Life.

With regard to the spiritual nature of sin, too, we were having fellowship with death, before we were freed from it into fellowship with Life. I see these (though you may disagree) as helpful ways to understand the real issues when choosing against sin.

Logic Jun 22, 2006

Christinyou wrote:

Our nature before The Cross of Christ was Satan nature, not God nature. Satan nature came from believing Satan and not God even though it was a lie. All mankind then became Satan natured. At believing unto salvation, Satan nature out and God nature in, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Our nature before The Cross of Christ was a spiritually dead and soulish nature, not a Satan nature.

We all are born spiritually dead and therefore we are all soulish in nature. Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord and no longer soulish. Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. It is the soul that we battle everyday, who will rule? Will it be our soulish passion to walk after the flesh, or will it be our spirit, to life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death?
~~[b]~~Romans 8:4[/b] [color=990000]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]

We are dead to our first husband, which is Satan and him killing us by the Law. Christ is our new husband, and there is no adultry from the first husband.

Do you think that I thought this?

It was a quote from Christinyou and I was responding to it to show a better way of seeing who the husband is in Romans 7:2-3.

But, if you knew this, sorry for the missunderstanding.

sermonindex Jun 22, 2006

Logic asked:

Do you think that I thought this?
It was a quote from Christinyou and I was responding to it to show a better way of seeing who the husband is in Romans 7:2-3.
But, if you knew this, sorry for the missunderstanding.

It's ok. I realised you were quoting Phillip. My previous post was more in answer to your comment that you had never 'had fellowship with Satan' and your request for an explanation of 'biblical language'.

Whereas Phillip thinks of the relationship with the author of sin, as a marriage, I tend to think of it as fellowship with death rather than life. I find plenty in scripture to support my thinking (I believe...).

Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord and ~~[b]~~no longer soulish[/b]. Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner.

I heard this preached many years ago, and it crops up regularly on the SI forums. As I've said before, I don't agree - after many years of trying to make it work.

Our wills rule what we do, not our souls. The will of the flesh has been subdued to the will of the Spirit, inasfaras we are prepared to put our will behind, or, tune it into, God's will - revealed to us or prompted to us by the Holy Spirit.

The rest of the time, if we are baptised into Christ's death, then our living is simply that - living. It is not sinful, nor is it a battle with the soul.

I believe the soul is what God is trying to save. We are to ~~[i]~~love[/i] God with ~~[b]~~all our soul[/b]. Our soul will be the sum substance of all our choosing to do His will, and the character which that has worked in us through our obedience and the help of the Holy Spirit.

If we spend our days trying to destroy our souls and honestly believing it is our enemy - and God's enemy - how can we bear fruit of the Spirit? How is the 'inner man' being strengthened by knowing His love? (Eph 3)

I am not trying to take from you a belief system which works for you, but, how can you and your soul be on different sides of the argument?

Logic Jun 22, 2006

dorcas wrote:

I tend to think of it as fellowship with death rather than life.

I like that, may I also use this as my own?

Our wills rule what we do, not our souls.

I am saying is that our will stems from our soul.

It is from our soul that we get our will and emotions or feelings.
~~[b]~~Proverbs 4:23[/b] [color=990000]Keep thy ~~[u]~~heart[/u] with all diligence; ~~[b]~~for out of it are the issues of life.[/b][/color]

Hebrew 3820 for heart:
לב
lêb
labe
A form of H3824; ~~[b]~~the heart[/b]; also used (figuratively) very widely for the ~~[b]~~feelings, ~~[u]~~the will[/u][/b] and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything.

I would think that we coud say that the haert is also our soul.

In this Proverb, it tells us to keep our haert.
How would one go about keeping it, if it is our feelings and our will?

We must keep it by the spirit that God brings to life in us that is in accord with HIS Spirit.

That is how we are new creations, by haveing a new spirit.
Inturn we are actualy diferent people altogether.

I believe the soul is what God is trying to save. We are to love God with all our soul. Our soul will be the sum substance of all our choosing to do His will, and the character which that has worked in us through our obedience and the help of the Holy Spirit.

I agree totaly.

If we spend our days trying to destroy our souls and honestly believing it is our enemy - and God's enemy - how can we bear fruit of the Spirit? How is the 'inner man' being strengthened by knowing His love? (Eph 3)

Not destroy, but keep under.
~~[b]~~Eph 3:16-17[/b] [color=990000]That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit ~~[b]~~in the inner man[/b];
~~[b]~~:17[/b] That Christ may dwell ~~[b]~~in your hearts[/b] by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [/color]

This "inner man" is our spirit since the word heart is used in verse 17.
If it is the same, He wouldn't have made a difrence in term.

Paul would have said, "be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man that Christ may dwell therein".

But, since We are to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in our own spirits we would be able to control our own souls that Christ may be in our thoughts and feelings in which our souls rule.

If we spend our days trying to destroy our souls and honestly believing it is our enemy - and God's enemy

~~[b]~~James 4:4[/b] [color=990000]Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is ~~[b]~~the enemy of God.[/b][/color]
We were Gods' enemy before we were saved and soulish, being spiritualy dead.
As we are born again, as I said, we rule our souls by our spirits that are mande alive.
~~[b]~~1Corinth 6:17[/b] [color=990000]But he who is joined to the Lord is one with Him in spirit.[/color]

but, how can you and your soul be on different sides of the argument?

Say the soul is neutral.
Before we were saved, it was serving the flash to sin.
~~[b]~~Romans 8:3[/b] [color=990000]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/color]

When we becacme born again, the soul is now serving our spirits unto good works.

~~[b]~~Ephesians 2:10[/b] [color=990000]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/color]

Christinyou Jun 22, 2006

The mind, will and emotions are the soul, the learning center of our being. The Spirit is our life, and of course our flesh is the body.

Do you believe in the tripartite being of man. That is body, soul and spirit? This is the is the three in one, the same as God, Three in One.

God has chosen to work in this arrangement that He created from the beginning. The Father is the Seed giver, the Son is the Seed, The Holy Spirit is the Life of the Seed. Then we are saved in spirit by the Spirit of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in us. We are being save in our soul by the Holy Spirit, by the renewing of our minds, by our Teacher the Comforter. We will be saved in body when we get our new one which is just like Christ and His body. That is why Paul can say; 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; What was dead to God? Our spirit, which is not alive unto God by the Spirit of Christ that is born again in us, the Seed of the Father. In our spirit having been saved by the Spirit of Christ in us, we must learn and this is the,"doth deliver" Part, we are being delivered in soul, our mind will and emotions, our learning center, which is controlled by the Holy Spirit teacher in renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ that is already in us by His Spirit. Then of course the body, and will He "Yet deliver".

This is why the Word of God separates the soul and spirit and body. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The old testament was all soul salvation, that is repent, keep the Law, and your soul will be saved. The New testament is Spirit Salvation, with the soul being renewed, "Baptized into one Spirit, with the Mind of Christ, and the Holy Spirit teaching us all things.

Old Testament:
Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of [such as were] oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors [there was] power; but they had no comforter.

Lam 1:9 Her filthiness [is] in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified [himself].

Lam 1:16 For these [things] I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.

The had no comforter.

New Testament:
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, (((He shall teach you all things,))) and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

All things to your minds remembrance, whatsoever I have said. The Holy Spirit shall teach.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Comforter which is the Holy Spirit is with us and in us, "baptized into the Holy Spirit", forever and teaches us all things about Jesus Christ, where do we learn? In our Soul, with the Spirit mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit teaching us about Him, renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ.

That ye may know"

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Col 4:6 Let your speech [be] always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Look up the phrase "that ye may know" In the old testament when He, the Comforter was not there, they new nothing.

In the New Testament The Comforter teaches us all things into our soul which is learning to match His Spirit that is in us. The Spirit of Christ that we are born again from above into.

If we don't separate the way God deals with His Children, that is by, Spirit Soul and Body, It is impossible to rightly divide the Word of God.

Saved in Spirit, being Saved in Soul and will be Saved in Body.

In Christ: Phillip

sermonindex Jun 23, 2006

Logic said

dorcas had said: I tend to think of it as fellowship with death rather than life.
I like that, may I also use this as my own?

Of course. I find it a better way of explaining the spiritual aspect of other religions, especially those which appear to have a supernatural content, such a spirutalism and the occult. The issue is not whether there is a hierarchy of other spirits, but the origin of those spirits, whom they serve and what they minister.

I am saying is that our will stems from our soul.

There was a recent devotional from OChambers which touched on will, and I felt he had captured the truth of my experience very well. I'll try to find it and post it later.

The thing is, if will is IN the soul, then by what can the soul be controlled?

I don't have a problem accepting that what the will wills, affects the soul, whether by a choice which brings it deeper into line with God's will, or by taking it further from God's will, but, I don't see how the ~~[i]~~entire[/i] will can be soulish, and not also a function of the spirit of a man - what he thinks and wants and how he complies with other pressures, such as his bodily needs and responsibilities to others.

I agree that the desires of the soul - say, towards some act of self-indulgence - or to hear a certain type of music - or to eat a certain type of food - may well influence the will; but, I maintain that a man is capable of choosing completely against, or for, what his soul desires; or of tempering his choice according to the will of God, or the Spirit's prompting, when these apply.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2006

I would think that we coud say that the haert is also our soul.

Hmmm. Rather, I'd say that by knowing what is in our hearts, we can tell something about the condition of our soul (and its salvation).

Here is Matthew's take on 'heart':

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the ~~[b]~~pure[/b] in heart
For they shall ~~[b]~~see[/b] God.

Matthew 5:28
"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to ~~[b]~~lust[/b] for her has already committed ~~[b]~~adultery[/b] with her in his heart.

Matthew 6:21
"For where your ~~[b]~~treasure[/b] is, there your heart ~~[b]~~will[/b] be also.

Matthew 9:4
But Jesus, ~~[u]~~knowing their thoughts[/u], said, "Why do you ~~[b]~~think evil[/b] in your hearts?

Matthew 11:29
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am ~~[b]~~gentle and lowly[/b] in heart, and you ~~[u]~~will find rest for your souls[/u].

Matthew 12:34
"Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the ~~[b]~~mouth speaks[/b].

Matthew 12:35
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the ~~[b]~~evil treasure[/b] brings forth evil things.

Matthew 13:15
For the hearts of this people have grown ~~[b]~~dull[/b].
Their ears are ~~[b]~~hard of hearing[/b],
And their ~~[b]~~eyes[/b] they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should ~~[b]~~understand[/b] with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.'

Matthew 13:19
"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who ~~[b]~~received seed[/b] by the wayside.

Matthew 15:8
'These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.

Matthew 15:18
"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they ~~[b]~~defile[/b] a man.

Matthew 15:19
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, ~~[b]~~murders[/b], adulteries, ~~[b]~~fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies[/b].

Matthew 18:35
"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not ~~[b]~~forgive[/b] his brother his trespasses."

Matthew 19:8
He said to them, "Moses, because of the ~~[b]~~hardness[/b] of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said to him, " 'You shall ~~[b]~~love[/b] the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'

It seems there is much in common between the heart and the soul, but in Matt 22:37, Jesus gives them ~~[u]~~each[/u] a full place. This definitely separates them sufficiently to warrant further study.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

John is strong on the concept of keeping ourselves, and here, of being able to purify ourselves. This implies the will is not controlled by only the soul. The will is able to overcome the effect of demonic opposition. (See how Legion ran and worshipped Jesus. Mark 5:6)

1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart.