The following picture came up as a random photo:
Parson, Butler's attack on the methodist chapel at cork 4
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=1414
With some of the recent threads about preaching I thought this photo had alot for us to consider quietly, [b]both
There is that old saying: a picture is worth a thousand words.
It is easy to shrink back when one feels the message is going to cause waves or even a raucus. This is a constant challenge. Today you just don't get invited back to preach or teach.
I thought this photo had alot for us to consider quietly
Does anyone know the background details of this illustration? It might be over a particularly convicting message by the pastor, or just another Anglo-Irish/Scottish/British/Prostestant/Catholic street fight! ;-)
MC
Hi everyone.
Does anyone know the background details of this illustration? It might be over a particularly convicting message by the pastor, or just another Anglo-Irish/Scottish/British/Prostestant/Catholic street fight!
Haha, first, would you believe it that as I logged in to respond to this the photo came up again! So I took the opportunity to see if there were other photos related and saw one, but no more explanation. That's a good point you brought up Compton :-D . I'd be interested also to know more about the circumstances surrounding it.
Oh, there were similar situations like the picture in the biography of John Wesley, but unfortunately I didn't read it in english.
How the crowd beat him and he is preaching, or he is running and in one moment says 'stop, stop, I want to tell you something' and he starts to preach, and after 15 min again running, it was very interesting in the same time very encouraging.
Maybe someone will find something to post.
Here I found something :-)
"The next day at Falmouth more serious perils awaited him. The rioters attacked the house where he was staying, and the noise was like "the taking of a city by storm." The outer door was forced; only a wainscot partition was between them and the object of their rage. Wesley calmly took down a large looking-glass which hung against the partition. The daughter, Kitty, cries out, "O, sir, what must we do?"
"We must pray," he replied.
"But, sir, is it not better for you to hide yourself ?"
"No," said Wesley. "It is best for me to stand just where I am."
The crews of some privateers, to hurry matters, set their shoulders to the inner door, and cried, "Avast, lads, avast!" and the door gave way. Wesley stepped forward at once and said: "Here I am. Which of you has anything to say to me? To which of you have I done any wrong? Toyou? Or you? Or you?" He walked on as he talked until he came to the middle of the street, when, raising his voice, he cried with great dignity:
"Neighbors, countrymen! Do you desire to hear me speak ?"
"Yes, yes," they answered; "he shall speak."
The captains of the mob, admiring his courage, commanded silence while he spoke, and afterward conducted him in safety to another house. "
edit:[url=http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/methodist/ch12.htm]source
There are no accidents in God's way of thinking. :-)
I'm digging around for you on a site that has a lot of outstanding resources and I posted a few "blips" to whet your appetite. Here's the link to the Wesley Center Online and I would suggest doing a search after you look at the information on Mr. Butler. [url=http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/letters/1750.htm]Butler
The Methodists were considered, particularly at first, almost subhuman and the actual attacks they received were quite vicious.
It appears that such persecutions were not uncommon and there was great opposition and persecution from the "church" of that day. I was really convicted when I read this regarding Cork from Charles Wesley's personal journal.
Am I inflamed with love, grief, and pity when I am persecuted? Ouch, need to take that one to the prayer closet.Wed., June 28th. I read the Society an account of the persecution at Cork. All were inflamed with love, grief, pity. We parted in the spirit of prayer.
Here's another blurb I found.
On his second visit to Cork, in 1750, where he was accompanied by Christopher Hopper, riots broke out with renewed violence. He went to Bandon to preach, but the Cork mob followed him and hung him in effigy. His best guardians were the soldiers, many of whom became stanch Methodists, and the mob became more afraid of them than of the mayor, to whom Wesley wrote a letter closing with these words: "I fear God and honor the king. I earnestly desire to be at peace with all men. I have not willingly given any offense either to the magistrates, the clergy, or any of the inhabitants of the city of Cork; neither do I desire anything of them but to be treated (I will not say as a clergyman, a gentleman, or a Christian) with such justice and humanity as are due to a Jew, a Turk, or a pagan."
There are some depositions from the attacks contained on the website as well, which are quite remarkable. Here's another quote
Wesley asked him what he looked for when the mob came upon them. “To die for Him who had died for us,” was his noble answer.
And yet another quote from a biography I found online
It was John Wesley's rule, confirmed, he says, by experience, "always to look a mob in the face." An indescribable dignity in his bearing, a light in his eyes, and a spiritual influence pervading his whole personality often overawed and captured the very leaders of the riots.
And yet another incident
When Wesley was preaching at Gwennap two men raging like maniacs rode furiously into the midst of the congregation and began to lay hold upon the people. Wesley commenced singing, and one man cried to his attendants, "Seize him, seize him, I say; seize the preacher for his majesty's service." Cursing the servants for their slowness, he leaped from his horse, caught Wesley by the cassock, crying, "I take you to serve his majesty." Wesley walked with him three quarters of a mile, when the courage of the bravo failed, and, finding he was dealing with a gentleman, he offered to take him to his house, but Wesley declined the invitation. The man called for horses and took Wesley back to the preaching place.
And one final thing
Miss Wedgwood, who is far from being a Methodist, says,[b]concerning John Wesley: "Nothing that could form the flimsiest pretext for the treatment received by his followers can be brought home to him. He does not appear to have separated families; he never went where he had not a perfect right to be; he addressed those whom he regarded as beyond his pale in courteous and modern language; he never thrust his exhortations on anybody. The attacks of enemies, and even the accounts of alienated disciples, may be read without extracting a single anecdote that we should think discreditable to him; indeed, it is from this source that we derive much valuable, because unconscious, testimony to the good influence of his code on secular life. We cannot, then, admit that Wesley's errors of judgment or limitations of sympathy had even the slightest share in producing the popular fury of which instances have just been given."[/b]
Are we willing to suffer like this dear brother did? And if so, we will receive it with the same spirit that they received it. You don't see any of them defending themselves but quite the opposite. Here is a picture of what Jesus wants to do in our day. Are we ready or more specifically am I ready?
Habakkuk and Tears of joy, thanks for digging these things up! Truth is I have a great deal of appreciation for the impression I've been given of this man of God but know very little about the actuall events of his life and ministry.
Challenging indeed! and encouraging.
Chris
You don't see any of them defending themselves but quite the opposite.
Character.
Thanks brothers, would be great to see this continue, some outstanding outakes here.
I read the link submitted by TearsofJoy. Here are a few quotes. I emboldened the thoughts that struck me. It reminds me that there are both legitimate reasons and illegitimate reasons for being persecuted. Wesley maintained purity, and so, could never be justly accused.
The reasons assigned by the rioters themselves for their opposition to Methodism were very various and curious, but they often echoed the pulpit cries of the day, or were the outcome of passing popular and unreasoning excitement ready to seize on any excuse for violence.
The bigoted rector of Penzance had several Methodists committed to prison, among them Edward Greenfield, a tanner, who had a wife and seven children. Wesley asked what objection there was to this peaceable man, and the answer came: "The man is well enough in other things; but his impudence the gentlemen cannot bear. Why, sir, he says he knows his sins are forgiven!" :-)
"Nothing that could form the flimsiest pretext for the treatment received by his followers can be brought home to him. He does not appear to have separated families;
he never went where he had not a perfect right to be; he addressed those whom he regarded as beyond his pale in courteous and modern language;
he never thrust his exhortations on anybody.
The attacks of enemies, and even the accounts of alienated disciples, may be read without extracting a single anecdote that we should think discreditable to him; indeed, it is from this source that we derive much valuable, because unconscious, testimony to the good influence of his code on secular life.
We cannot, then, admit that Wesley's errors of judgment or limitations of sympathy had even the slightest share in producing the popular fury of which instances have just been given."
The main responsibility of these riots lay with the clergymen and "gentlemen" who stirred up the excitable people, and cannot be attributed to any illegal or rash actions of the Wesleys.
A spokesman answered, "To be plain, sir, if I must speak the truth, all the fault I find with him is that he preaches better than our parsons." :-?
Another said: "Sir, it is a downright shame; he makes people rise at five in the morning to sing psalms. :-P
WESLEY’ LIFE WAS A TESTIMONY OF CHRIST. AND IT HAD EFFECT:
“The clergyman at Darlaston was so struck with the meek behavior of the Methodists in the midst of suffering that he offered to join the Wesleys in punishing the rioters.
captain of the rabble, who had rescued Wesley, he was so impressed with Wesley's spirit that he immediately forsook his godless, profligate gang, and was received on trial into the Methodist society by Charles
Wesley's perfect, placid intrepidity, his loving calmness and serenity of spirit, amid whatever rage of violence and under whatever provocations and assaults, must always remain a wonder to the historian. His heroism was perfect; his self-possession never failed him for a moment; the serenity of his temper was never ruffled. Such bravery and self-command and goodness, in circumstances so terrible and threatening, were too much for his persecutors everywhere. He always triumphed in the end."
Diane
was so impressed with Wesley's spirit
Wesley's perfect, placid intrepidity, his loving calmness and serenity of spirit, amid whatever rage of violence and under whatever provocations and assaults, must always remain a wonder to the historian.
Ah, there ... A picture of our Lord. Is this not the wonder that ought to be said of us all? Sadly, it is far more often the powder keg, the virulent, the ...
[i]Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Following the link which Habakkuk supplied us for Butler, I found some things which might give us a better idea of the events surrounding the picture, though some of these descriptions appear to be of seperate events at different places, perhaps all connected though.
In a letter
"To John Baily [11]
LIMERICK, June 8, 1750." ...
Wesley seems to be responding to some controversy and the information that follows comes from
the extracts of some papers which were lately put into my[Wesley's] hands,
These appear to be court depositions of some sort? Perhaps given in connection with the events surrounding the meeting house?
Here are a few excerpts...
That on May 4 this deponent with some others went to the Mayor and told what had been done....that they threw much dirt and many stones at the people, both while they were in the house and when they came out: that the mob then fell upon them, both on men and women, with clubs, hangers, and swords; so that many of them were much wounded and lost a considerable quantity of blood.
That on May 5 this deponent informed the Mayor of all, and also that Butler had openly declared there should be a greater mob than ever there was that night
That on May 5, while he and others were assembled to hear the word of God, Nicholas Butler came down to the house where they were, with a very numerous mob: that when this deponent came out, they threw all manner of dirt and abundance of stones at him: that they then beat, bruised, and cut him in several places; that, seeing his wife on the ground and the mob abusing her still, he called out and besought them not to kill his wife: that on this one of them struck him with a large stick, as did also many others, so that he was hurt in several parts, and his face in a gore of blood.’
That every day but one, from the 6th to the 16th of May, Nicholas Butler assembled a riotous mob before this deponent's house: that they abused all who came into the shop, to the great damage of this deponent's business
That from the 16th of May to the 28th the mob gathered every day before his house: that on Sunday, 28, Butler swore they would come the next day and pull down the house of that heretic dog, and called aloud to the mob, “Let the heretic dogs indict you; I will bring you all off without a farthing cost.”
and when the mayor was induced to come with the mob he
...said aloud, “It is your own fault for entertaining these preachers. If you will turn them out of your house, I will engage there shall be no more harm done; but if you will not turn them out, you must take what you will get”:
There are quite a few more, many more actually.
Now is this Cork, is this in Ireland?
As I was reading these I was amazed at what can happen even in countries that have supposedly embraced the Gospel.
Here is the link again
Hi Chris,
Reading through this, the same...
As I was reading these I was amazed at what can happen even in countries that have supposedly embraced the Gospel.
.. thoughts. Utterly amazing the levels of hatered and malice and how much worse the religionist that would believe he is courting favor or defending the very thing lost on his conscience. Have a bit from Oswald Chambers elsewhere but something telling in this line here;
[i]There are comparatively few Pharisees to-day, the greater number are Sadducees
The Sadducees were the anti-Pharisaic party, and they went as far in believing too little as the Pharisees in the direction of believing too much. They were the sceptical religious party. Their beliefs lacked warmth and conviction. The weakness of the religious sentiment in them was partly the cause and partly the effect of another characteristic, viz. worldliness. The spiritual and eternal stirred them but faintly, consequently they had a more tenacious hold on the concerns of this present life.
Stalker*
Sorry for the digression, did find something related to:
Now is this Cork, is this in Ireland?
[i]On the 9th August, 1747, John Wesley sailed up Dublin's River Liffey after a 26 hour voyage across the sixty miles from Holyhead, in Wales. It was the first of twenty-one visits. He spent six and a half years in Ireland.
His host was William Lunell, a respected Banker and cloth merchant. He was a Huguenot but also a member of the infant Methodist Society being developed by the Rev. Thomas Williams.
Wesley arrived on a Sunday morning and preached that afternoon at Evensong in St Mary's church where he found "as gay and senseless a congregation as ever I saw."
Next day he rode out ten miles to meet with Archbishop Cobbe who had made serious objections to the Methodists preaching in any churches under his care or even in the open air. He considered them to be un-trained for the work. Wesley argued that they were as surely called to preach as either of them. The Archbishop did not agree.
The first Methodist place of Worship was in a former Lutheran Church at Marlborough Street. Later, a church book shop, widows' home, school and ministers' residence was built at Whitefriar Street.
Soon great persecution began. The apprentices to the weaving trade in the Liberties of Dublin led the riots. When Methodism reached Cork, the persecution continued. "No man is fit to be a preacher here who is not prepared to die at any moment" wrote Thomas Williams to Wesley.
Still, Wesley persevered. "Have patience with Ireland and she will repay you," he declared. Time has proved him right. A small Methodist community has provided two large secondary schools, an agricultural college, a theological college, a psychiatric clinic. Through the City Missions, Methodism has created several homes for the care of the elderly and the needy. The work continues.
A neat site, with some pictures and even more links: [url=http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~smacsuib/methodist/index.html]Methodist Centenary Church
What amazes about all of these events is not the brutal nature of the attacks but rather the hearts of those who were attacked. Note the attacks were not limited to John and Charles Wesley.
Once a man or woman, a boy or a girl, totally sells out to following Jesus there will be a lot of angry people. It was no different in Jesus day, nor in the Wesley brothers. Should we somehow expect it to be different in our lives?
I watched the saints in China on that dear Chinasoul video. If you haven't seen it here is a link but you definitely need cable or DSL because the files are huge. [url=www.chinasoul.org]Christians in China
As I've thought about the Wesley brothers and the saints in China the first part of 1 Peter 4:1-4 has continually come to mind. 1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, [b]arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.
once a man or woman, a boy or a girl, totally sells out to following Jesus there will be a lot of angry people.
I suspect this has a lot to do with the new Management. In other words, once anyone becomes a follower of Christ, he or she is under new Management. Those whose power depends on their loyal subjects are threatened when any of them are no longer under their control.
It seems that the strongest hostility tends to come from religious and political forces – but families also are reluctant to see one of their members “defect”.
Diane
Hi Mike and everyone else.
Utterly amazing the levels of hatered and malice and how much worse the religionist that would believe he is courting favor or defending the very thing lost on his conscience.
Can see in this also the same as
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
and see again how the Bible so accurately portrays whatever facet of life it touches upon.
In regards to this being Ireland, you brought in another statement which I am amazed could be spoken in a western nation though I suppose this reaveals some ignorance on my part
No man is fit to be a preacher here who is not prepared to die at any moment
In my mind, these sorts of things are said in eastern countries, in pagan lands. I suppose too I am forgetting some bits of history.
Am learning a little bit more of Church history here :-D
It was John Wesley's rule, confirmed, he says, by experience, "[u]always to look a mob in the face.[/u] " An indescribable dignity in his bearing, a light in his eyes, and a spiritual influence pervading his whole personality often overawed and captured the very leaders of the riots.
Brothers and sister ;-) All of this has really been just compelling and finds that inward agreement ... It is the character traits that have always gripped, the bottom line issues of the heart that the Lord was and always is after. The mind reel's in 10 different directions contemplating these ultimate matters, wanting to express it in so many different ways.
An indescribable dignity in his bearing, a light in his eyes, and a spiritual influence pervading his whole personality
The underscored above has stuck in the last couple of days and it is descriptive by what character it was in him that followed; [i]An indescribable dignity in his bearing, a light in his eyes[i]fruit inspecting[i]evident
Act 22:15 For thou shalt [u]be
Don't want to take that too far ... Guess I have often wondered why Wesley hasn't been more prominently brought forth in these parts. Glad to see this emphasis on his character rather than just his 'theology'. Been chewing on this the last couple;
Hi everyone.
It was John Wesley's rule, confirmed, he says, by experience, "always to look a mob in the face." An indescribable dignity in his bearing, a light in his eyes, and a spiritual influence pervading his whole personality often overawed and captured the very leaders of the riots.
after reading this I thought of...
And in nothing terrified by your adversaries:...
...which is[b]to them[/b] an evident token of[b]perdition[/b] ...
but[b]to you[/b] of[i]salvation[/i] , and that of God.
a passage which has often challenged me and still does.
Another random photo this morning. Thought I'd share it here.
[i][b][color=000000]It was John Wesley's rule, confirmed, he says, by experience, "always to look a mob in the face." An indescribable dignity in his bearing, a light in his eyes, and a spiritual influence pervading his whole personality often overawed and captured the very leaders of the riots. [/color]
This discussion is locked.
