Is moral perfection possible?

Perhaps I can enter into a dicussion on whether or not moral perfection is possible. I advocate the doctrine myself and would perhaps consider some arguments on the contrary. The texts that I will bring to the table are the following:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2nd Cor 6:14-7:1

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God". Heb 6:1

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". 1st John 2:1

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." Romans 6:14-15

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1st Thess 5:23-24

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4

I am sure that there are more but this will have to suffice for now.

As I would understand perfection, it means agreeing with God when he speaks to you, whether it is asking you do something, or convicts you, or whatever. When you act in total obedience you are acting and being 'perfect' because sin does not reign in your mortal body.

Now to be perfect like God, no. We still need the mercy of God. Luke 1:50: And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. If we would be perfect like God we would have no need for mercy.

What say?

ginnyrose

Yes.

2 Corinthians 7:1

Titus 2:12

ciao!

The answer to all three is the word according.

How is the Christian going to be judged?

Answer: Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

How is the Christian established in this earth?

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

How are we to understand our lives as Christians?

2 Timothy 2:7-8 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

According, According to what? According to Paul's Gospel. What is Paul's Gospel?

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

How are we to be by the preaching of Paul's Gospel which no other man in the Word had before or after him. There were 90 recorded writers of the New testament after the Cross, But none but Paul were chosen as the cannon of Gods blessed message, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". Even John got it form Paul, and Peter also.

"that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" According to Paul's Gospel. 1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

In Christ: Phillip

Perhaps I can enter into a dicussion on whether or not moral perfection is possible.

"Is God able to save to the uttermost those that are coming to Him through Christ?" Heb 7:25

"Is God able to keep me from falling?" Jude 1:24

"Is God able to make all grace abound towards me?" 2 Cor 9:8

If the answer to these questions is 'Yes' then we might ask some additional questions. Is God able to do this for 'one second'? If so, why not two? If two, why not sixty? If for a whole minute, why not two minutes? If two, why not sixty? If for a whole hour, why not two...?

You get my drift?

That's amazing! Did all of you agree with me?

One question for Ginnyrose.

Now to be perfect like God, no. We still need the mercy of God. Luke 1:50: And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. If we would be perfect like God we would have no need for mercy.

If it is impossible to be perfect like God is perfect then why does Christ command us to be?
Have you considered this?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Why then do we need God's mercy? First of all I will state the obvious that we would have no need for mercy in the sense of pardon if we stopped sinning altogether. So the mercy spoken of there must be some other extension of God's mercy or kind of mercy. For instance, if God removed the influence of His Spirit then we would all be hooped!!!!!I mean burnt toast!!!!!You know what I mean??? :-o

So it is an act of mercy that God would bestow His Spirit upon us to propel us onward. Also, if we are Christians then no doubt we are still developing and progressing in our outward life. We may be perfect inside and clean ("He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean" John 13:10) and yet needing guidance for the sake of outward conformity. We are imperfect with regard to our outward development and in this sense will always be imperfect for we will experience infinite progression. Wow, now that's a thought!
So if Christ tells us to be perfect like our heavenly Father is perfect and we cannot and will not ever be perfect in the sense of outward conduct and understanding then it follows that Christ is telling us to be perfect in the only sense which is attainable, to wit, moral perfection, perfect obedience to His law or complete conformity to rectitude.

You guys are awesome!!!
And I mean that. I was expecting some kind of lond drawn out dicussion on Romans 7 or something of the sort. By the way what do folks like yourself think of such a passage? Do you you think that a Christian at best is "carnal, sold under sin" or do you think, like the early church, that Romans 7 is descriptive of a man under the law? Or maybe you have never thougth of that. Maybe we could discuss this.

With love in Christ, Randy

Well, if it is not possible, then the words, "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect" are nothing but a cruel joke. The key is, how ar we [b]made[/b] perfect? I believe that many great answers are found in this thread.:-)

Paul said in Phillipians 3:12,13:

vs 12 "Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I man lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

vs. 13 "Brothers, I do not account myself to have laid hold' but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before, I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward".

---------------

We as bevlivers have been grafted into the Branch of the One who is perfection. We are one with Him in spirit and He is in us and we are in Him. As we abide in the Vine we enjoy the rich supply of the Divine Sap, and through this Sap we bear much fruit.

But this is always conditional upon our abiding in the Vine.

The only perfect One is Christ and we are in Him and He is in us. And day by day as we take the cross, deny our natural life and live by Him we are being transformed into the same imaage from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.

We cannot with Paul say we have obtained. But by the indwelling Divine Life we pursue and as we do we are being perfected in this indweling Divine Life.

Graftedbranch

I asked myself the same question, and the Spirit of God led me to the answer. One that brought much comfort and assurance. It's heavenly divine.
I will Return.

"be ye perfect..."

E.W.Bullinger,a Greek Scholar stated that the word perfect could/should be read as [b]complete[/b].

Romans 7:17-20

" As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Romans 7:24-25

" what a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Had I lived a lifetime of 100% moral perfection, but stumbled for one second, perfection is no longer there.

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Nevertheless, "be ye holy...for I am holy"
Praise The Lord Jesus Christ,
I am nothing, HE IS ALL

Before you get into a discussion of whether or not "perfection" is possible, we must first define "perfection". What is "perfect"?

Is perfection something you do or something you are? What or who gives definition to perfection? If perfection is lost, how can it be attained?

Additionally, what is sin? Is sin outward, something committed in body and deed, or something inward, commited in spirit? Can a person whose intention is good, whose spirit is good, commit a sin outwardly in the flesh, in deed, and yet still be perfected in spirit? Can a person ever be perfect in the flesh?

Lastly, what of our own perfection? Is it something in our control? Or something outside our control? Do we make ourselves perfect? Is that possible? Or does God make us perfect? And if God makes us perfect and we sin, why did we sin?

Some questions to ponder...

In Christ,
Blake

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from [b]all your filthiness[/b], and from [b]all[/b] your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from [b]all[/b] your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you [b]all[/b] your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace [b]sanctify you wholly[/b]; and I pray God your [b]whole[/b] spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from [b]all filthiness[/b] of the flesh and spirit, [b]perfecting holiness[/b] in the fear of God.

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand [b]perfect and complete[/b] in all the will of God.

In Barnes' Notes upon 2 Cor. viii. 1, we have the following:--
"The unceasing and steady aim of every Christian should be perfection--perfection in all things--in the love of God, of Christ, of man; perfection of heart, and feeling, and emotion; perfection in his words, and plans, and dealings with men; perfection in his prayers, and in his submission to the will of God. No man can be a Christian who does not sincerely desire it, and who does not constantly aim at it. No man is a friend of God who can acquiesce in a state of sin, and who is satisfied and contented that he is not as holy as God is holy. And any man who has no desire to be perfect as God is, and who does not make it his daily and constant aim to be as perfect as God, may set it down as demonstrably certain that he has no true religion."

Quote:

""I asked myself the same question, and the Spirit of God led me to the answer. One that brought much comfort and assurance. It's heavenly divine.
I will Return.""

I like this.

I like this also, how about I have returned in the Spirit of all believers. "When that which is perfect is come," Is He come? Are we known as He is known to us? The Holy Spirit reveals Him to us more and more each day. As Paul has said, "Phl 3:10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, [even] in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Has He Come? Are we Perfect in Him? What more can we say? Yes, Yes and Yes Yes. Praise God and Amen.

In Christ: Phillip

I like this also, how about I have returned in the Spirit of all believers. "When that which is perfect is come," Is He come?

The context of this verse is the comming of Christ. In that day, when we shal see Him face to face. No, it has not come. But it shall come. And in that day we shall be Like Him because we shall see Him as He is.

In that day is the day of His comming which is also the day of our transfiguration into the complete image of his likeness. In that day we shall be truly like Him inwardly and outwardly.

Graftedbranch

Philp 3:12-16
Yea, for me I know that it is doctrinely sound to know the above and I believe it, and practice it, but, for me, it is exercising to keep a mentality that perhaps it is attainable now?
This is a kind of self imposed discipline but an hope as well.

this is a good thread. Thanks guys.

If were born of incorruptable seed and not of corruptable than that means there is no corruption after we are born again. Right? The question is what part is incorruptable? I believe it is our spirit that is incorruptable. "That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit." What spirit? The holy spirit. If our flesh is "concieved in sin" that means our flesh is born in sin and there is no hope because the flesh can't be born of the spirit. Right?

Advancing the notion of Christian perfection in some absolute sense is the most contrary notion in all of church history as it has never been attained.

Not even the apostle Paul claimed to "have obtained or alreatd benn perfected.".

Christian perfection consist in being in oneness and fellowship with the perfect one and being constituted with His perfect Life and nature.

The New birth bring into us this incorruptable Seed. But it is just a seed and must grow and develop. It is planted in fallen men and women who have been redeemed and justified in and by Christ and who as children with His lIfe must grow up in all things into Christ who is the Head.

There are many experiences and crisis which we undergo as believers beginning with repentance and faith resulting in the New Birth. But there is no one expreince which renders us perfect in ourselves but rather each crises and experience brings us into a deeper realization of our own corruption and Christ's indwelling perfect, overcomming Life with in us. And brings us deeper into a life of dependance upon Him.

The more we exprerience Christ, the more we are conciouse that "in me, that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing". The more we know that in ourselves we are nothing and can do nothing and Christ must be all in all to us.

Graftedbranch

Quote:

""The New birth bring into us this incorruptable Seed. But it is just a seed and must grow and develop. It is planted in fallen men and women who have been redeemed and justified in and by Christ and who as children with His lIfe must grow up in all things into Christ who is the Head.""

The iIncorruptable Seed of the Spirit of Christ is full complete birthed in Mary, striped, crucified, dead, resurrected, ascended, and born again in the Believer. The Seed of Christ is full blown and all consuming life in the Mature Seed of the Father brought forth In Christ.

The Place where we must mature is in our mind, we already have the Mind of Christ but it is not His Mind that takes over our mind as the Spirit of Christ takes the spirit of Satan out, (dead old nature) and gives birth to our new nature Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The Holy Spirit is the Worker in our mind. The Mind of Christ is "finished", ours is not and never will be. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (That is death life in satan.)
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

The Holy Spirit is the soul=spirit Teacher of the Mind of Christ that our mind is maturing into. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Our wisdom in our mind comes from the Holy Spirit baptized into us by the Spirit of Christ that is birthed in us sent by the answered prayer of Jesus Christ by the Father. Christ is "made" wisdom to us by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
"Of Him" is the Holy Spirit, In Christ Jesus, by God the Father made to us, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

Wisdom: 4678. sophia
Search for G4678 in KJVSL
sojia sophia sof-ee'-ah
from 4680; wisdom (higher or lower, worldly or spiritual):--wisdom.

Righteousness: 1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

Sanctification: 38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'
from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Redemption: 629. apolutrosis
Search for G629 in KJVSL
apolutrwsiV apolutrosis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
from a compound of 575 and 3083; (the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.

All Three of the God Head The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are in the believer, making Their Abode with us that we will put on the Nature of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Perfect In the Spirit of Christ, becoming Perfect in the mind=soul-spirit and will be perfect in body. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us (Christ)from so great a death, and doth deliver: (Holy Spirit) in Whom we trust that He will yet deliver [us]; God the Father with a new resurrected body Like Jesus Christ.

Perfect? Not Yet but getting their, and what we all should seek, to know Him in the Seed of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

We cannot with Paul say we have obtained. But by the indwelling Divine Life we pursue and as we do we are being perfected in this indweling Divine Life.

This is a common arguement. Also it was said that "even Paul said that he never attained unto perfection".

I think that this verse was taken out of context.

"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect"

The perfection that he is talking about is the ressurection of the dead and more specifically the receiving of a body "fashioned like unto his glorious body".

But to use this verse to speak of the impossibility is vain for he says "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded"

So there is a sense in which we may be perfect and a sense in which we will not be perfect until we receive a glorified body. I have shown also in a former post the fact that there is yet another sense in which we will never be perfect, to wit, perfect in understanding and the subsequent outward life that follows the perfect understanding.

So the obvious sense in which we are commanded to "be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect" is moral perfection or wilful conformity to the law as we understand it. We cannot be obligated to do that which is impossible and so it would be bold faced mockery for Christ to command a type of perfection that was impossible for us to enact.

PS I still am wondering whether or not there are some here that think that the guy in Romans 7 who is "carnal, sold under sin" is a Christian.

Randy

"so it would be bold faced mockery for Christ to command a type of perfection that was impossible for us to enact." Quote from RandyJ

Right on!!

Thanks,
mml