Grace!

I don’t think this was meant to be a OSAS dispute, but I can’t resist inserting a few comments:

The context of the Hebrews verses quoted is about the Israelites in the desert – how they never entered the Promised Land because of unbelief. The writer uses them as a warning to the reader. These Israelites never did accept the Lord by faith. They never entered into his rest, even though they had walked in his blessings. They had Christ’s Spirit in their midst. They had knowledge, miracles,the fire and the cloud, blessings etc.

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
Even in Jesus day many walked with him, but fell away when they learned the cost. So it is with all today who taste of God’s goodness, enjoy the blessings of the fellowship, and learn of his grace but ultimately choose instead to trust in law (themselves) to be justified. They fall from grace because they remain in their unbelief even after they had the chance to have grace.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
God does not have a plan B for all who refuse plan A (after they receive the knowledge about it). There is not another sacrifice available. (Sorry!)

There will always be many, many who are sure they are saved, but they aren't, and you can't necessarily tell for a long time. They've learned to talk the talk and walk the walk. Some day it will be apparent:

“… They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” 1 Jn. 2:19

Just HOW is God’s grace sufficient?
How does God’s grace get us through day by day?
How does God’s grace keep us from falling into the sin of trusting in self and other temptations?
How does God’s grace give us hope?
Diane

J-bird wrote:

None of these verses tell me I can lose my salvation. Not one of them.

one does not continue in me,

Logic, I think this verse supports the many references to perseverance. It also supports Jesus' parable about the seed and the sower. A lot of seed looks like it's off to a good start, but ... well, you know how it goes. Only he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Richard Owen Roberts says it well: What happens at the beginning counts for nothing. It's what happens at the end. There are a lot who seem to be in the kingdom because they are great camilions. Some day they will say, Lord, Lord.... but.....

It's time we stop handing out cheap eternal assurance policies! It's time we stop making replicas of Christ-followers!

A dog returns to its vomit, and a sow to the mud. And why not? Without true regeneration these are still the same creatures.

Let God's grace do its job! Then you will have the authentic!
Diane

lets not forget "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning," 2 Peter 2:20

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknoledge his name before my Father and His angels," Revelation 3:5

Yep the scripture is pretty clear you are not saved only by grace but also by the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit and the works he predestined for us to accomplish to lead us to perfection...

J-bird wrote:

They can't lose their salvation because God CHOSE them.

It' not that He is their Father, but, the relaitionship they have with Him.

I may always have a father but if I disown him, how will I recieve his inheritance?
I will not, I will refuse it.

J-bird wrote:

So if I decide my father is no longer my father, than that makes him no longer my father? :-o

For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8

Did the thief on the cross have time to do good works before he went to paradise?

Murray

P.S. I believe you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is not the same as works.

When Jesus payed the ransom for our sins on the cross he was paying in advance. Right? He payed that debt before we were born or even thought of by our parents. He was also paying the debt for the saints that had already died and went to Paradise. Right? And he even payed the price for the thief who died with him.

Jesus payed for all our sins PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE. Yes!!! even the ones that we will commit in the future and if he has already paid the debt than why would he have to pay it again.

Wow, I thought that I opened up a can of worms when I started the thread on moral perfection!

I cannot help but notice that noone answered J-Bird according to his own logic. J-Bird has accepted the common theory that the atonement consisted of a payment of a debt. This teaching is completly absent from the scriptures. But scriptures are not used to arrive at this doctrine and so permit me to weigh the natural deductions of the teaching that the atonement consisted in the payment of our debt.

1) The atonement was made for all people. This is plain and let me note here that we are to look to the scriptures for the facts requisite to a proper understanding of this point. Some will postulate their peculiar teaching that the atonement consisted in the payment of a debt and at the same time will see that not all will be saved and then conclude that Christ only paid the debt for some people. We must not involve ourselves in this folly. The scriptures are plain the atonement was made for all people.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9

We can also see that the atonement must have been made for all people from the fact that God offers salvation to all people.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Acts 17:30

"that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

"If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." John 7:37

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:22

There are probably a multitude of other verses that could be shown in this connection. The point is this. Could God be fair in offering salvation to all people or any people for whome there was no adequate atonement? It would be like saying to a poor man "Hey come over to my house for a feast it only costs $500". It would be a mockery.

2) Not all will be saved. This is plain from the following verses:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1st Cor 1:18

I do not feel the necessity of showing a multitude of verses here at this point because I do not think that any of you will believe that all are going to be saved.

My reasoning is this. If the atonement was made for all people and not all will be saved then the atonement could not have consisted in the payment of our debt because then God would be presented as damning millions to Hell when the debt of their sin was already paid!!!!!And that would be nothing less than preposterous!

For the same reasons the atonement could not have consisted in Christ suffering our punishment instead of us. What!!!!???? Does our good God damn milliions to Hell when the punishment for their sin was already carried out on the cross of Christ???? Wow, now I think that I have opened up an even bigger can of worms.

No doubt, if Christ paid the debt of our sin on the cross then we could never lose our salvation, however, that teaching would be just as forcful in proving that all will be saved. Likewise, if Christ suffered the punishment of our sins then we could not lose our salvation but if Christ suffering the punishment of our sins made it impossible for us to lose our salvation then it would also be impossible for anyone to lose their salvation and noone will be in Hell.

If it is accepted, then, that I am right in my deductions then the question will be asked "How then are we saved by the blood of the Lamb?". Good question and I will, for now, refer the person would like the proper answer to that question to the following:

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/4/EdwardsAtonement/edwardsindex.htm

I simply conclude that the atonement was

[b]a condition[/b] of salvation along with other conditions that must perpetually be fulfilled in order for salvation to take place. I see the conditions as such:

1) Repentance. Sorrowing over your sin and returning to obedience. This must always be fulfilled. If you fall into a state of rebellion then you fall from salvation.

2) The atonement. The atonement was designed to produce a respect for the law of God that would have otherwise been produced by the punishment of the sinner. In order for this respect for the law of God to be produced in the mind of the sinner by the atonement then the atoenement must be believed and so faith in the atonement is also a condition of salvation. There is more than just a respect for the law that is produced by the atonement. Righteousness is also produced.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" Romans 10:10

Please ponder.

The following words caught my attention, as they relate well to this debate (taken from Randy’s Signature):

Let it ever be borne in mind, that no passage or passages of Scripture prove any one doctrine which do not contradict every opposite doctrine.

Romans 8:14 tells us clearly who belongs to God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God, (they) are sons of God.” I inserted the “they” because I just heard this rendering in Ron Bailey’s sermon “Adoption” (found on SI) I had never before heard this verse as a qualifying condition of salvation. Until we accept that teaching, and until we walk in the Spirit and understand in the Spirit, we are just theorizing. Then we find ourselves assuming that “tasting the goodness of God”, “having knowledge of it”, making initial commitments, going forward, being missionaries, being zealous for God, being pastors, etc etc etc are indications of true regeneration.

Sadly, we have turned the condition of “salvation” into a lot of stuff that it is NOT. We have declared countless people saved because of what they did once, or because of some other qualifications based on our fragmented understanding. So no wonder we run into doctrinal snags. Truths don’t fit anymore, so we try to press something in to explain the inconsistencies (all those who obviously are “falling away”).

No where in the Bible does it outright say once you are SAVED, you can lose your SALVATION. But no where in the Bible does it give a specific formula for WHEN one is saved. (It is MAN who likes to do that) Jesus said that only the Spirit can give birth to spirit. “Like the wind, you can’t tell where it is blowing.” But since we can’t SEE the Sprit, we conjure up stuff that we CAN see, and use that as our qualifiers. (Yet God gives many qualifiers that we overlook.)

Until we really let God be God, and let him work in the lives of people in HIS timing, (which may take years), we will fail to comprehend related doctrines.

The names of His children are written in the Book since before time. At what point and through what circumstances his Spirit gives them HIS life is a process between God and his child.

Personally, I am reluctant to use such words as salvation, saved, or born again because, really, they have been redefined through chronic misuse.

Diane