How many times has this happened to you?

sermonindex Jun 29, 2006

The scene: It could take place in the home you purpose a visit but for this I will choose a chance meeting in “Wally – World” or some other supermarket shopping occasion.

A mother and her young child are in the store where by chance you meet and greet one another as friends or even as family members. At that exact moment the child begins to “act up” demanding the attention of the mother. The mother does little or nothing about the child’s rudeness and you are left with the feeling that you are competing with the child while speaking with the mother especially when she halts your words to give attention to the words/wants/self induced needs of the child, thus making it impossible to do anything else except say goodbye, hope you have a nice day.

I ask ---- what’s wrong with that scene? What would you do to correct it, more importantly, what should the mother do? Why? What issues are at stake?

There is Spiritual application here that can be made.

Orm

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Warrior4Jah Jun 29, 2006

Not sure what kind of spiritual application you have put on this short story or question, but I don't think you can do anything to correct it.

I suppose if you are good with kids you can try to comfort the kid, but really thats the mothers responsibility. I can imagine that you would make the mother feel ashamed (or insult her) if you would correct her kid.

If the mother wants to have a conversation with you she will try to comfort the child first. But it might even be better to give a visit to the mother or invite her to come by to have a chat. :)

What I usually see with the situation that a kid suddenly 'goes off' is this:
- The mother corrects the kid and lets it know that this is not supposed to happen.
- The mother bribes the kid and rewards it for crying. (Don't cry, I'll buy you an icecream)
- The mother (totally) ignores it.

The second situation is just plain wrong.
Ignoring the child (for a short time) to make it feel ashamed for acting up might be good. I don't know what would be best (even out these options), but you have to let your children know that this is not acceptable behaviour, being rude and wanting things, except if the child is in real distress.

I think the mother should check what the reason of the crying is as it might even be that there is something wrong. Kids and expecially small kids are very often very clearly selfcentered. Nowadays when we are grown up we hide it much better. ;-) (or fool ourselves)

R

roadsign Jun 29, 2006

I raised four kids so understand this kind of challenge very well.

In situations like this, there could very well be an established unhealthy pattern between mom and kid. So you can’t fix it. The mom just doesn’t know how to handle it well.

Children NEED attention and approval. It is not any more selfish than wanting food when they are hungry. So to immediately assume that the kid is bad for being “hungry” is out of line. It just has to be channeled – by teaching delayed gratification.

You ( or ideally mom) could give undivided attention (eye-contact) to the child and say, “When I’m finished talking to so-and-so, I will listen to you. But first, you must be very quiet, so I can hear.” And then you must follow through. Respect the child as you would an adult.

If that has been a pattern, the child will believe it and behave. The problem is when parents chronically do not follow through. Bribing with ice-cream only reinforces the value of misbehaving.

Diane

sermonindex Jun 29, 2006

~~[i]~~"I raised four kids so understand this kind of challenge very well.

In situations like this, there could very well be an established unhealthy pattern between mom and kid. So you can’t fix it. The mom just doesn’t know how to handle it well.

Children NEED attention and approval. It is not any more selfish than wanting food when they are hungry. So to immediately assume that the kid is bad for being “hungry” is out of line. It just has to be channeled – by teaching delayed gratification."[/i]

As a parent, if I say "I don't need to understand my child, my child needs to understand me", what would that say to you?

Orm

C

Combat_Chuck Jun 29, 2006

If the problem is not an innocent one but that of the childs rebellion-- if I was mom, I'd command the child to stop.

If the child disobeys,

I'd say we need apply the board of correction to the seat of learning.

Or let dad do it when they get home.

By undisciplining children we are harming them, not helping.

Spiritual application? Could it be the way our heavenly Father disciplines those whom He loves?

Adam

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Warrior4Jah Jun 29, 2006

Or let dad do it when they get home.

I remember this from when I was a small child.
My mom and I were at a supermarket and I kept on 'asking' (more like demanding) my mom to buy this toycar! I really drove her nuts and eventually she bought it for me and she added, wait till your dad hears this. (something like that)

And yes I was in for some trouble at home. :)

I

IRONMAN Jun 29, 2006

bro Chuck

I'd say we need apply the board of correction to the seat of learning.

i like that! :-P

sermonindex Jun 29, 2006

Lets narrow the scene a bit:

I walk up to the parent to say hi and politely inquire of the family as to its well being and it is at that moment the child begins to interrupt and compete for mother or dad's attention. Mother or dad allows the interruption~~[s]~~ which means I just have to repeat what it was I asked or he/her has to do the same until we part company, which is quick to happen.

How do you all feel about that and what now do you think mom or dad should do?

BTW, have any of you ever felt the back of
mothers boney fingers across your mouth?--- I have.

Want to talk about building self-esteem in a child?

;-)rm

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IRONMAN Jun 29, 2006

bro O

BTW, have any of you ever felt the back of mothers boney fingers across your mouth?--- I have.
Want to talk about building self-esteem?

it's hard to talk through fat lips isn't it! we learnt from an early age to hush our mouths when grown ups were talking. i'm not sure where exactly the self esteem issue trumps discipline though in the eyes of people :-?

sermonindex Jun 29, 2006

Absolutely, Ironman. Just look around at the results as it has been attempted.

Orm

C

Combat_Chuck Jun 30, 2006

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Chuck
I'd say we need apply the board of correction to the seat of learning.
i like that! :-P

I got that from paris reidhead ;-) :-P

sermonindex Jun 30, 2006

Combat_Chuck wrote:

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Chuck
I'd say we need apply the board of correction to the seat of learning.
i like that! :-P

I got that from paris reidhead ;-) :-P

We called it the "board of education". Thats what correction first and formost, should be all about.

8-)rm

R

roadsign Jun 30, 2006

I’m not sure where you folks are in your experience with children or with parenting. However, since Ormly put the question forth, I felt I’d share what tiny bit I’ve learned – not that it addresses the issue adequately by any means.

I'd say we need apply the board of correction to the seat of learning.

Why get out the heavy artillery when all you need to do is say, “Wait 5 minutes”. If a child has never learned the meaning of such words as “Wait”, “Shh”, “5 minutes”, etc, then whose fault is it? It is the parent who needs the education! Sadly wee ones get punished for the parent’s sins. (I guess the Bible says that too). This is exasperating for kids.

The brain is a far better place of learning than the buttocks. Discipline means training and teaching – like Christ taught the disciples. He didn’t beat them into obedience, or threaten punishment at every turn (though they experienced some hard knocks at times).

Sadly we are in a generation where good parenting skills are not being passed down. So we end up with a lot of major problems – power struggles, impulsive behavior, wounding, revenge, rebellion, etc. And then, a few years later, we have to pull out the big guns. (which fix very little)

I’ve seen so many bad scenarios between parent and child in supermarkets, that it makes me weep. Mom just doesn’t know how to handle junior, and junior becomes obnoxious. And all the shoppers around feel at edge.

Another consideration: The public forum is not a wise place to spank. You could have the Children’s Aid at your door. Thankfully there are far better means of correction – or should I say, “Training”. There are countless ways to apply consequences for wrong behavior which teach, not just punish.

Train a child….. teach…
What can you teach in the supermarket: About the contents of packages, healthy food, unhealthy food, four food groups, what’s breakable, what’s a waste of money, why refrigeration, respect for other shoppers, waiting in line, patience, etc etc etc. (depending on age)

If you respect your children, including others, they will learn to respect you and others. That is simply good training. Role modelling has always been the most powerful teacher. Christ used that method.

"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart."

Diane

sermonindex Jun 30, 2006

"If you respect your children, including others, they will learn to respect you and others. That is simply good training. Role modelling has always been the most powerful teacher. Christ used that method."

First things first, Diane.

The only thing a child understands is pressure. One earns respect, remember? The child must first respect the parent and the parent must first teach that command to the child. First comes the instructions to be carried out and then comes the discipline when they aren't carried out. Too much I've seen the other way around, i.e., the parents being instructed by the child.

"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart."

Proverbs 22:6 (NASB-U)

Train up a child in *the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.

*Lit ~~[i]~~according to his way[/i]

Quite literally: Don't give a child training and when he is old he will not know how to receive any --- from anyone. This is the consequence of letting a child do it's own thing and expecting it to respect you authority and the authority of others. When a child respects authority he brings honor to you. Unfortunately society is replete with several generations of parents who as children never learned basic principles or human nature at the "hand " of Godly parental leadership. Gone are the days when I child says "thank you", "sir" or "mam".

Orm

R

roadsign Jun 30, 2006

The only thing a child understands is pressure.

It’s sad when a child/parent relationship has degenerated to this. The child’s heart is hardened. He becomes tough and resistant or weak and passive. (a way of coping) Parents either are passive (absent or unavailable emotionally) or they are authoritarian and controlling, or both. Either tends to backfire miserably. I’ve seen it for years.

If a child can no longer hear a quiet voice, if he can no longer respond to tender love, or if he is perpetually defiant to authority, you have a serious problem. We see that esp in broken families – called attachment disorder. There is a lack of nurturing. I think it is a growing problem in well-to-do families where the bank account is the center of parental attention.... or some other idolatrous persuit.

Too much I've seen the other way around, i.e., the parents being instructed by the child.

This perception of authority is prevalent in our culture – so it shouldn’t be surprising if our wee ones follow in the trend. It is a reflection of our general attitude towards God – we run him, he is powerless. We see it in our churches all the time.

We live in an entitlement generation – ie: I deserve my rights, I have a right to this, and that.. I have a right to the kind of music I like, the things I want, the freedom to do what I want. … And the purpose of our athorities (ex government) is to give us what we want. After all, isn't that why we vote for them?:-(

So people (of all ages) then become unteachable (I deal with this as a teacher) Sometimes It is tempting to think that some form of regimented training program will fix it. However, that does not necessarily make mature adults. It doesn't nurture the wounded soul. It may, however, polish the “outside of the cup”.

God has a far better solution. It is called the New Life. That is the only way to break out of our deteriorating generational cycle of sin that we see everywhere.

Diane

sermonindex Jun 30, 2006

Funny that our armed services are the only ones left who understand what it means to train up youngsters "in the way they need to go" and to do so with an objective in mind. The result? Ask that youngster who he now has a regard for.

Discipline breeds security. Godly discipline breeds the best security in a child. And whom the Father loves, He chastens --- sometimes with a rod.. I repeat: The only thing a child can understand is pressure. Thats the way its mind receives into itself the ability to make proper choices. It is through instruction and consistent discipline he learns; as in the way of success and failure.

So much for socio-psychology and OBE.

FWIW there a spiritual analogy, especially considering roadsigns postings, that can be associated with the church. Anybody see it?

Orm

M

mamaluk Jun 30, 2006

R

roadsign Jun 30, 2006

Discipline breeds security. Godly discipline breeds the best security in a child.

Now, this is the crux, isn’t it? And this is God’s way in dealing with us. The end product: Security!

That is what everyone in the world needs in order to survive. Sadly they learn from a young age that they will find it in this world, and that is the bases of a lot of sinful choices - from an early age.

I failed to address one of your comments, Ormly: You feel that a child must respect his parent before the parent should respect the child. I think I know what you are saying: That a child can't use the parent in order to get his needs met. This is true. But, there is a big difference between legitimate need and perceived need (wants).

Frankly no person can respect another any more than he is respected himself. That’s just the way it is. You can’t love anyone more than you know you are loved. Frankly love IS respect. “Love always respects.” Likewise discipline IS respect (or it’s not good discipline) A child deserves respect right from the womb, where he first learns if he is loved and wanted. Without that he lacks security, and has difficulty trusting any authority. And so he goes about filling the hole in this soul in all kinds of wrong ways. For example: If negative attention is all he gets, he will strive for it because that’s better than no attention. So he becomes the bad kid of the class.

When a child learns that he can only be loved and respected if he has earned it, he will never have SECURITY. He will never trust God’s love, and will always feel that he can’t measure up. So he adopts a theology of works.

You can see that parents have a huge and serious task - being God’s representatives to their offspring. They must teach that God is an AUTHORITY who can be trusted. But first, the parents themselves must BELIEVE it – trust God, and love him with all their heart, soul and mind.

FATHER knows best

Much of one’s theology is learned in the cradle.

Diane

sermonindex Jun 30, 2006

roadsign wrote:
Discipline breeds security. Godly discipline breeds the best security in a child.

Now, this is the crux, isn’t it? And this is God’s way in dealing with us. The end product: Security!

Pardon? Sorry I did pick up on that. What is God's way?

That is what everyone in the world needs in order to survive. Sadly they learn from a young age that they will find it in this world, and that is the bases of a lot of sinful choices - from an early age.

And whose fault is that but the parent who thinks that, after the first admonition, he can talk his child into obeying. Thats wishful thinking. You know what? I think you already know it to be so.

I failed to address one of your comments, Ormly: You feel that a child must respect his parent before the parent should respect the child.

That's not what I wrote. The child needs to learn how to respect the parent, period. The child must earn his --- and it will be from his peers.

I think I know what you are saying: That a child can't use the parent in order to get his needs met. This is true. But, there is a big difference between legitimate need and perceived need (wants).

The child should never USE his parents to get anything, needs or wants. Don't you agree with that? Can you not see disrespect in that?

Frankly no person can respect another any more than he is respected himself. That’s just the way it is.

Sorry, thats just wrong thinking. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It's also the beginning of knowledge and God is NO respector of persons. Obey or you will suffer the consequences. That's always been His way and parents are given by Him to follow His example when disciplining their children along those lines.

You can’t love anyone more than you know you are loved. Frankly love IS respect. “Love always respects.”

Love is love and it can be tough at times --- and should be if you want lessons learned. God loves you --- but ask Him if He respects you.---- Do you still love Him now that He answered you?

Likewise discipline IS respect (or it’s not good discipline) A child deserves respect right from the womb, where he first learns if he is loved and wanted. Without that he lacks security, and has difficulty trusting any authority. And so he goes about filling the hole in this soul in all kinds of wrong ways.

Deserves respect?? From the womb??? I gave him life. My will will be done in his life until he reaches the age where I must give his life over to God. Hopefully he will have learned, BECAUSE I WILL HAVE TAUGHT HIM, to let God have His way in it.

For example: If negative attention is all he gets, he will strive for it because that’s better than no attention. So he becomes the bad kid of the class.

So change it. Give him positive attention. But that doesn't mean you stop being the parent you need to be when it is correcting time. Parental negotiations rarely if ever work, leading only to more benign corrective measures, usually more talk and threats if you follow new age thinking. Pressure works almost all the time if applied in the right place and in a consistent manner that the child can count on it happening when he/she disobeys. Thats the Godly way of doing business.

When a child learns that he can only be loved and respected if he has earned it, he will never have SECURITY. He will never trust God’s love, and will always feel that he can’t measure up. So he adopts a theology of works.

Nonsense!! My earthly father was a Rock! Being a rock in my life I knew He didn't/wouldn't waiver in the truth or his demands that I be truthful. He never did and now I know that my Heavenly Father won't either because I now know how a father is suppose to function. My dad taught me. I could count on Him being there to guide me when I was in trouble or if I make a mistake He wouldn't disown me. Thats security!! Guess what? My Father still corrects me when I need it! You know what? --- it still hurts. Only now it is my Heavenly Father.

You can see that parents have a huge and serious task - being God’s representatives to their offspring. They must teach that God is an AUTHORITY who can be trusted. But first, the parents themselves must BELIEVE it – trust God, and love him with all their heart, soul and mind.

Made impossible if your thinking rules the day. Sorry the kid will be ruined. Want proof? Read the headlines everyday.

FATHER knows best

Much of one’s theology is learned in the cradle.

Most of ones theology is learned in the wine press but only when intimacy with Father is sought after.

Ormly

Jeremiah 6:16 (NASB-U)
Thus says the Lord, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

C

Combat_Chuck Jun 30, 2006

We can discuss child psychology all we want, and surely much of it is important; but may we never forget the age old truth of Proverbs, which is: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."