Sinners - ignorant victims or willful criminals

Here is an interesting question and an interesting answer. This question was posed on another message board and the following answer was given by a poster. I wondering what everyone here thinks about 1) The answer given 2) What would be your answer to the question and what Scriptures back it up.

I will give my answer shortly - I am currently listening to a couple of Art Katz sermons on the subject and searching the Scriptures for confirmation - although here are two Scripture that come to mind immediately.

[b]The Question:[/b]

Do you think it's biblical to view sinners as ignorant victims or as willful criminals?

In our preaching, should we treat them as ignorant victims or as willful criminals?

[b]The Answer:[/b]

A sinner, in the sense of his sin, is a criminal in the eyes of God. Though they may be victims in some sense(modested as children, stolen from, lied too, etc etc), regarding their sin they are criminals. Or as Whitefield used to say, "Monsters of iniquity".

It's not that they don't have the knowledge of God and His Law. Rather, they "supress the truth in unrighteousness". Every moment of their lives that they live without obeying God is more guilt that will crash on their heads unless they get right.

They love the darkness and hate the light. It's not that they don't have light, but that they don't obey the light that they already have - the testimony of nature and the truth of conscience.

Sinners are willfull criminals and we must preach to them as such. Even their ignorance is willful ignorance, which simply adds more to their guilt.

We are not to merely educated the ignorant, or comfort the victims, but to confront the willful rebellious when we preach the gospel. I can't stress this point enough.

When we preach to sinners we are not preaching to victims but to criminals. We must show them their crimes against God, their violations of God's Law, and the horrific consquences of their rebellion.

Jesus did not die the death of a criminal because sinners are victims. Jesus did not die the death of a criminal because sinners are ignorant. But Jesus died the death of a criminal because sinners are criminals in their sin.

Charles Finney hammers the point that sinners are not victims but that sinners are criminals in his book, "Lectures on Revival".

[b]The Scriptures That Came To Mind:[/b]

Matt. 9
36But when he (Jesus) saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

and

Luke 19
1And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. 2And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. 3And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. 4And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. 5And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. 6And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. 7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. 8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. 9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Do you think it's biblical to view sinners as ignorant victims or as willful criminals?

Both. People are indeed victims of other’s sins, though they may be ignorant of it. There are “innocent” victims of evil oppression and abuse, or even just of mankind in general. Even the Bible makes that clear.

Yet, as long as one retains his/her victim complex he remains hostage to his offender. He will never be free to accept Christ. This is the case of countless who hold bitterness against the offenders of their past. That’s why Jesus said, “Forgive as we forgive others.”

A “victim”, at some point, must take ownership of his sinful choices – esp his refusal to accept God’s mercy. He must let his offender off the hook and leave him on God’s hook.

I think the victim complex is one of the biggest reasons why many fail to surrender to Christ or fail to live the victorious life. They fail to take responsibility for their own sins - a problem worsened by a narrow view of sin – limited to outward behaviors.

When Paris Reidhead first went to the mission field, he viewed the heathen as poor unfortunate lost souls who would be eager to accept the gospel. He was in for a shock. I think it was he who called them monsters of iniquity, but maybe he borrowed that from Whitefield.

We are not to merely educated the ignorant, or comfort the victims, but to confront the willful rebellious when we preach the gospel.

Both, again! To view sinners, on the other hand, merely as wilful violators would run the risk of being like the Pharisees – cold and heartless. Sinners need to witness God in the flesh and learn what Divine mercy and love is like. They need someone to weep for their pain, to empathize – and move them on to confession. Or else, at best, they’ll just make shallow religious commitments in order to get out of hell, while their pain and hurt (and sin!!) stay deeply buried and unrepented.

Without love we just rip people apart in our attempt to “confront their sin” head-on. And we do more harm than good. Sadly many who confront sin only confront the outward manifestations but fail to reach the source (what they don’ t know) : for example, refusal to forgive absentee father, domineering mother, legalistic deacons, abusive husband, horrible world,… - ultimately anger at God!

I don’t think any of us can confront sin in another just by taking pot shots, esp if we don’t even know the sinner. We need compassion combined with enlightenment of the Spirit. Jesus would go straight to the core of the heart and was never wrong. But he always knew how to handle it. You gave two good examples. What motivated Zacheus to repent?

Love covers over a multitude of sins. Love always protects. And love always promotes honesty (confession) and repentance (change of heart).

Diane

We must show them their crimes against God,

Is confronting sin in others our God-given responsibility? And if so, how do we do that? Perhaps it helps to first check how Jesus dealt with sinners. How did he confront sin? How did Jesus teach us to handle specific sins in others? Consider the various biblical examples:

- the disciples – how did Jesus deal with their sins when he called them?
- the many sick sinners waiting at the pool of Bethsaida? Why just one healing?
- the teacher of the law who said, “I will follow you wherever you go.”
-the man who said, “Lord, let me first bury my father”
- Herod. Why didn’t Jesus confront Herod for murdering John the Baptist?
- the 5000: “When he saw the large crowd he had compassion on them, and confronted their sins (not) and healed their sick.”
-the rich young man who loved his possessions.
- those who deserted him after he gave hard teaching.
-his accusers
- Pilate
- Judas
- the Highpriest
- the Pharisees. (note: they usually approached Jesus first to confront his "sins". What can we learn from them?)
- the woman at the well
-the woman caught in adultery, the man in this event

Jesus taught us how to deal with sinners:
- enemies: walk the second mile (!) Give him your coat (!) give him a drink (Paul said that)
- false prophets - recognize by their fruits, don’t believe them,
Don’t give your pearls to swine! (Don’t set yourself up to be trampled on).
Shake the dust.

When your brother sins against you ( go PRIVATELY at first)
When you want to help a brother take a speck out of his eye: take your log out first. (what might that be?)

It would also be worth studying the biographies of great missionaries. How did Hudson Taylor promote conviction in thousands in China?
Also revival accounts – remarkable conviction in fields, anywhere – often with no preacher. How did they discover their sins? Had they learned the laws of God?

After doing this bit of study, I feel convicted to leave direct confrontation to the Spirit unless led otherwise. He's done a pretty good job so far convicting sinners. If he wishes to speak through me addressing someone's specific sins, I trust him to give me the right words in the right timing - and a lot of love.

Diane

A few more names for the list. How were these people confronted about their crimes:

- the accusers of the woman caught in adultery
- Paul
- those at Pentecost

Peter said at Pentecost, “Save yourself from this corrupt generation”? When one turns to the Lord, does that not assume a turning AWAY from sin and false trusts? Would this not imply the Gospel (Good News) is sufficient- to soften the heart towards the ways of God, and give one a desire to follow him - whatever the cost? "For the word of God is living and active. .... it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb. 4:16

Ignorant victims of willful criminals

Paul: “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance 1 Tim 1:13

“Do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. ” 1 Pet. 1:14

“…he (highpriest) offered…. for the sins the people had committed in ignorance Heb 9: 6

How's this for coming against sin:
"By doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men." 1Pet 2:15

even their ignorance is willful

"We can always 'prove' that we are right, but is the Lord convinced?" (unknown source)

When through the knocks of life, we become aware that we are not nearly as right as we had believed, we grow in humility. And then we have compassion for others who believe their ways are right. For, alas, we are on level ground - in continuous need of divine light shining truth on our hearts.

"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn - and I would heal them." Jn. 12:40

This is part of God's judgment for unblief. But, praise God, Christ came to heal, set the captives free (from sin bondage), open the eyes of the blind, and bring understanding:

"I will put my law in their minds,
and write it on their heart." Jer. 31:32

What amazing, glorious Good News!!

Diane

To paraphrase J Edwin Orr, "The key principle of forgiveness is that someone always has to pay."

The real question that we should be asking is whether or not ignorance is an excuse for crime? And is there really such a thing as an ignorant sinner? After all, didn't God give us all a conscience?

Hmmm....

1 Timothy 1:12-14

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

paul sin ignorantly. i believe you become an outright criminal when you KNOW and you continue to sin. the pharisees are a good example of that. many of them knew that Jesus was the Christ, but continue to sin because they love themselves more. thats why Jesus harshly rebuked them, they KNEW.

"when He sees them going on, obstinate and wilful in gratifying their own lusts, at the peril of His eternal wrath. But He never lets an impression escape from Him, as if the sinner were just a "poor creature" -to be pitied, as if he could not help his position."

jesse, not all people outright want to sin willfullly. there are many who are truly bound and want to get out and do not know how. i, for one, was one who knew i was a sinner and needed a savior since i was 4. i wanted to change, but did not know how. i grew up buddhist/hinduisnm and so i was very confused. i always knew there was one true god, but i didn't know wich god was the true god out of all religions so i went thru a lot of different religions to find the true god. after years of searching and still in confusion, bound by addiction that i could not get out of on my own, God sent someone to me to share the LOVE of Christ. i didn't need to hear that i was a sinner and going to hell. i knew this. for someone to point out my sins to me back then would just break me more. i knew i was a strung out whore. i was told this all my teen life. if a christian would of name my sins and told me i will go to hell that would of broken me more. i needed to hear hope to go on living. not saying that you shouldn't preach about sin and hell, but we must be led by the Spirit. not all need to hear about hell or about sin because they know and are trap. some just need to hear about the love of Christ. when someone told me that Jesus died for me to make a way for me to be free because He loved me, i literally broke down on my knees and wept. such a large group was around me, but i didn't care, i just couldn't believe that God loved me so much. i was so blown away that God gave His life up for a dirty sinner like me. on that day i gave my life to God and was totally set free!!! i even got delivered from demons, i was possessed by demons from all the religions i went thru(i am a very passionate person,so whatever i get into i go to the extreme). i dry heaved all that night that i thought i was going to die, but God was setting me free from demons. after that i was a new person!!!

jesse, we are also called to be merciful and love our enemies. we must have a biblical balance. remember that vengence belongs to the Lord.

jesse, remember where you have fallen, brother. i'm not saying to stop preaching about sin and just preach on love, but we must be sensitive to His Spirit. for it is His Spirit that knows the heart of man. surely the cross of Christ can be preached to all. that is the way to life, but there is a time to preach on hell and there is a time to just preach on His love and there are times to say nothing, but give a hug.

Jesus not only called us who are His disciples to preach, but also to be a witness of His love and hope. to know Him above all that we may truly be lights in a dark world giving glory to our God and hope to the dying.

jesse, God is doing a great work in you right now. it doesn't feel good right now, but be patience and allow Him to have His way with you. after that you will yield the peaceable fruit of righteosness. we cry out to be Holy like Him. then we all who are His, who cry out for more of Him must endure His chastising that we may be partakers in His holiness.

God bless you, lisa

edit:
We cannot deny that sin is often completely unconscious. We usually don't reailze we are making wrong choices or saying unloving words. Perhaps later we feel convicted, and then make ammends (if we have a softened heart).

God has indeed given each person a conscience, however, we can never presume that the conscience is autmatically in tune to God's laws. We would soon discover that if we let wee ones do whatever they want. Over time children LEARN what is right and wrong from their parents and social environment. (which is not necessarily Godly)

There is also such a thing as a collective conscience. What is right in our society becomes RIGHT to the individual consciences. We see it in our churches too. That is why very few get disturbed over such sins as materialism or humanism. We are conditioned to accept these worldly values simply by familiarity.

Concerning willful disobedience: Perhaps the willfulness is most evident when ones are required to change their thinking, behaviors, or ways of doing things.

People are naturally very resitant to change, as we all know. The conscience is not easily reprogramed. That is just the way people are, whether young of old. I think of the apostle Peter whose resistance to change became apparent when God sent him a vision of a sheet filled with unclean animals.

It is an impossible task to change - even ourseves, let alone others. I find myself often tempted to try to CHANGE people before they are ready , before they WANT to change, or see the need for it. It is hard for me to accept the fact that really, I can't change anyone. I wish I could eradicate sin by telling people what they are doing wrong, and the harm that will cause. But, alas, even if they agree with me, usually they just stay stuck in their ways.

Surely, radical change is a remarkable work of God in cooperation with a broken sinner whose heart has been softened.

Diane