How important is it to have a born-again date?

A specific time-point of salvation is important to evangelicals because it helps them establish where one stands with God. But, just how important is this knowledge? What does the Bible say?

What about Nicodemus after his discussion with Jesus? Why don’t we hear about his born-again experience? What happened to the teacher who told Jesus he wanted to be his follower, and then received a reply about foxes and birds. What happened to the man who was told to let the dead bury the dead? What happened to the one who was told to sell all his possessions and then follow Christ? Surely he must have taken time later to seriously consider what Jesus had told him. Surely there is a possibility that he got saved.

Of all the healings Jesus performed, how many got saved - right then, or ever? The two blind men immediately followed Jesus after he healed them. But did that imply a spiritual rebirth, or was that just a good intention, like the many others who followed Jesus for the bread and the miracles? Why aren’t we told?

At what point did the disciples get saved? Why don’t we read about their “born-again” testimonies?
It would seem that the gospels are rather lean when it comes to recording born again experiences.

Consider the epistles to the Corinthians. Clear distinction is not emphasized by Paul. Could it be that many joined the church with full intentions of following Christ, but their immaturity revealed that they might really still in the world? Paul seemed to deal with the various issues that threatened the church - division - and didn't focus on whether they were “saved” or not.

What about the Galatians? Many who started out right got “bewitched” by legalizers. Could it be that some of Galatians abandoned the New Way in favor of the old , more predictable and controllable way? How do we know how many took Paul’s warnings seriously, and how many refused to repent?

An episode in the gospels describes a significant point of departure - the day many left Christ when they realized that the price of being a Christ-follower was too high. However, perhaps many of them turned to the Lord on the day of Pentecost.

That reminds me of Christ’s parable of two sons:

[i] There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, “Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ “I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said, the same thing. He answered “I will, sir” but he did not go.

Which of the two did what the father wanted?”[/i]

Clearly, from this parable, we learn that we cannot establish someone’s ultimate intentions until his final day. For at any point an unbeliever might change his mind after having said, “No.” And any apparent follower (one with good intentions) could fail to fulfill his promise.

Even in dealing with people’s sins, Christ taught us to deal with the specific sin "against YOU", rather than the offender’s salvation status. Only if the offender fails to admit his wrong and mend his ways after appropriate warning do we treat him as a pagan (whatever that implies). I guess that means that you consider him NOT an authentic Christ-follower. That makes me wonder, It didn't look like Jesus treated Judas like a pagan - for three years, anyway.

I suspect that our modern evangelical church has been out of line in its emphasis on the “born-again” experience. We have often let this override any obvious symptoms of sin.

It would seem that, Biblically, far more emphasis is placed on specific sin issues in the church, and also on the final day, when and only when there will be a clear distinction between the saved and the unsaved.

These thoughts are far from complete - just some observations that pop in my mind. Any other thoughts? Could I be wrong?

How do our views of these things affect the way we treat others, teach, preach, respond, disciple, practice membership requirements, etc?

Diane

Hi Diane,

I think you're right on track. I would add this passage from Ezekial 18:21-24 (NIV)

21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 [b]"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? [u]None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.[/u][/b]

There's nothing more precious than to experience the presence of Christ but to fixate on a particular experience of some sort is very dangerous. I need to experience his presence daily and the only way that can happen is if I'm walking with Him in obedience to His commands.

I suspect that our modern evangelical church has been out of line in its emphasis on the “born-again” experience. We have often let this override any obvious symptoms of sin.

When you ask someone "How is Your Heart With Jesus?" they love at me like I'm from Mars or something. When questioned about repentance, people have told me such things as "I repented 20 years ago when I went to the altar but I'm born again and walking with Jesus." In other words, there was no repentance for 20 years and they're relying on an old experience not the present fragrance of Christ that only comes from repentance and submission.

Just a few thoughts for what they're worth...

i know somepeople can say the day and on the second they got saved... i cant i can say what month... i can say it was night.. i can say it changed my life... i can say i repented of my sins..and i continue to do so, and in this matter its not how you started out...its how you finiched, and the finish line is in heaven...
i get the feeling that when people talk about repentence..it sounds like its some hard thing that they have to do...maybe its like that for some... for me repentence its like
now im free from that and i dont have to do it anymore by the grace of god.
repentence isent some burden that we have to do...repentence is freedom from sin... you dont have to sin anymore...you can turn away from it and be free from sin ,
and if one is born again of god, they will continue to repent always, ... if they dont...they are not born of god,

gods peace to yo
christian

These thoughts are far from complete - just some observations that pop in my mind. Any other thoughts? Could I be wrong? How do our views of these things affect the way we treat others, teach, preach, respond, disciple, practice membership requirements, etc?

I think what you are describing happens when the church takes the part for the whole. As awesome and wonderful as the redemption is, there is a purpose that lies beyond. Jesus is both the Door and the Way according to God's eternal purpose. Somehow entering through the 'wicket gate' became the goal instead of the gateway to the ultimate destination, thus the part becomes the whole.

The consequences to our teaching and preaching are a nearsightedness that results in interpreting God's purposes only as they relate to us and our welfare. Man seems to be always prone to interpret all that God does as it benefits him, without concern for the desire of the Father's heart. We need to remember with Timothy that we are called not only according to the "grace" of God, but also "according to His own purpose".

[i]Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, [b]but according to his own purpose and grace[/b], which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,[/i]
(2Ti 1:8-9)

In Christ,

Ron

Being born again is likened unto our first birth. The mother does not know when conception took place, maybe after she finds she is pregnant she can remember the day or time, but some don't know until the doctor say so. Some have given birth and did not even know they were pregnant. Our rebirth I see as the same, we can remember the time and place after we are birthed and we are babes on the milk. But do you remember your first bottle or your first food outside the womb. We grow thereby and become to know what we are eating and at some time in our new life in Christ we begin to eat meat and then The Holy Spirit begins our teaching us in kindergarten and first grade and beyond and we learn what the new birth means by the Christ that is in us and we grow and grow, the only difference in our birth and our rebirth in our rebirthed Spirit by the Spirit of Christ will never die and the Holy Spirit will never leave us and we understand it was not the stork that brought us into the world. We will get a new body and all will be with God our Father forever in His House.

I don't know when I was born again, that is the instant of conception of the Incorruptable Seed of Christ that was put into my spirit. I do know it happened but it has taken me some 30 years to really understand my born again experience and I am still learning by the Holy Spirit teaching.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

It is much more important to know why and by Whom they were born again, than it is to know where and when.

In Christ; Phillip

I might also say that the being born again experience is the single most important thing that happens to us in our salvation. Without our being birthed into Union with Jesus Christ and Christ being birthed into us the means of that Union and Him bringing His Father with Him and The Father baptizing into our soul the Holy Sprit Teacher of Christ, we have no chance of overcoming sin or any thing Else that has to do with salvation and working it out with fear and trembling.

We have such an illusion that it is our becoming better and working so hard not to sin and building our faith so we can be better converts for God, we loose sight or never received it, to what God has done, and never understood in the first place. It is Christ in us the Hope of Glory that is the greatest and biggest mystery and miracle of all time. Think of just the implications of Gal 2:20. We were crucified with Christ, wow what does that mean? That implies we were dead on the cross with Christ. How could that be? It says, "Yet we live", Then it says, It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me, wow, this just keeps getting more and more a question of what is going on here? Then it Says, "That the life we are now living we are living by the Faith of the Of God, Who loved us and gave Himself for us.

Wow!!! Being born again means a whole lot more than we can ever imagine. A New Person in us, which is the Spirit of Christ, a new Spirit in our Soul which is the Holy Spirit and even God the Father making His Abode with us. What are we missing, It sounds like we are in a fantasy world, and not even close to the people we were before we were born again. How True.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:26-28 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Wow, He even said He was going away and would come again unto us, I guess that is what He means when we are Born Again and He is birthed in us, that is, "coming again unto you".

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Hear it is, the mystery that was revealed to Paul that was not known form the beginning of the world and it was given to no one but Paul by direct revelation from Jesus Christ Himself.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 3:11-12 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

They were given to Paul and he has without interruption or waver proclaimed Christ in us, the mystery and our Hope of Glory.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Paul even call it his gospel, a mysterious born again Christ in you the Hope of Glory Gospel.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Born Again, absolutely the greatest miracle that has ever occurred to created being that had no nature except Satan's nature exchanged for the Nature of God Himself in Christ Jesus Birthed in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and what God says about Him through His Holy Spirit.

Born Again and in Christ; Phillip

I think what you are describing happens when the church takes the part for the whole. As awesome and wonderful as the redemption is, there is a purpose that lies beyond. Jesus is both the Door and the Way according to God's eternal purpose. Somehow entering through the 'wicket gate' became the goal instead of the gateway to the ultimate destination, thus the part becomes the whole.

The consequences to our teaching and preaching are a nearsightedness that results in interpreting God's purposes only as they relate to us and our welfare. Man seems to be always prone to interpret all that God does as it benefits him, without concern for the desire of the Father's heart. We need to remember with Timothy that we are called not only according to the "grace" of God, but also "according to His own purpose".

How this cut's across everything, "[i]The part for the whole[/i]". The whole counsel of God as it has been given to us ... [i]"Have you considered _____"[/i]?

[i]Man seems to be always prone to interpret all that God does as it benefits him, without concern for the desire of the Father's heart.[/i]

How this has been bearing down more and more, day after day, to correct it, would it not read...

[i]The saint seems to be always prone to interpret all that benefits him, is without concern, only for the desire of the Father's heart.[/i]

Very strange these things that can consume our hearts and minds over that which is of first most importance. We just had a birth announcement from one of our own dear saints here and hardly but a few replies...

To the question;

How important is it to have a born-again date?

Very strange it is that the fact and the 'illustration' if you will are so closely linked, while so often being overlooked. The natural birth and the spiritual re-birth, inception, birth, growth or in our parlance, 'transformation', 'regeneration', 'sanctification'. The emphasis, [u]Born[/u]...
[i]Again[/i].

To couch it as something of a 'finish', when it is a [i]birth[/i] ... man it is hard to say this but is not a lot of what is being done really an abortion? The Parable of the Sower...

My own personal experience was one where I do not remember the date at all. I can go out to my back porch here and look up to my old apartment and I often do with just a tremendous awe, wonder and unspeakable thankfulness at what took place one night... It was there that the ultimate confrontation took place. It was that night that everything broke. It was there that I gave up, gave in, cried out, was exposed at the deepest level of my depravity that I knew at that point in time. It was exceedingly painful on every conceivable front, the labor pains of a spiritual struggle... Repentance? Had never been so naked and exposed, stripped of any questioning, bargaining, reasoning. I was at once ashamed, guilty, convicted, faced with what I had become ... I wanted to flee and yet embrace what was happening, pulled in two directions, towards the sin that I didn't want to relinquish and this overwhelming love that was so present as to fill my very veins with warmth and soul with peace, even as I squirmed and struggled against it... I hardly knew what was taking place. But no doubt it was the birth place. So the next day I awoke and sold everything, quit all the drugs, hit the streets witnessing... NO, no, no. It was but the very beginning and would be well over a year before a number of things even began to grip, even before I had a bible of my own. But the disposition was beginning to change and it was more by looking backwards at what was happening while in the process of it... Such a wonder! It is still a wonder! I told no one what happened that night for a very long time, it was hidden in my heart and being developed largely unaware, though certain little things were sprouting up, convictions ... The whole disposition was [i]being[/i] altered. A part of me is thinking right now that here I go repeating my 'testimony' all over again or that there is some appeal to that experience to rest on. But forget it. Are we not yet [i]still[/i] amazed at what has happened to us? Is it not a point of incredible rejoicing that this unspeakable condensation, this [u]miracle[/u], that despite everything ... Forgiven!?!! An invasion in the very core of our being, God with us, God [i][u]in[/u][/i] us!??!!

Let me go on in this Paul like boasting for just a few more moments. I am well pleased the Lord would have me to be even more peculiar perhaps than some, a peculiarness to my own self. I am well pleased to be made a fool for His sake in front of all of you, by embarrassment, by misunderstanding, by 'offense' to myself, by stupidity and bumbling along here, by even more exposure of the still present failings and shortcomings ... Ah, what does it ultimately matter? What do we care what we are thought of, personaly? Pride is such a revulsion,
'respect' .. for what? A great deal of all this seems to be a contradiction to what was first mentioned, that of being a benefit to [i]me\\us[/i], well it is certainly a by-product as is so exactingly put by Paris Reidhead. But I can no longer fake anything anymore, I can no longer pretend that my concerns are truly those of the Lords. Either they are or they are not. Do I really, do we really want to see God glorified or do we not? Do we have a burning desire that the Lord be exalted or do we not? Do we wish to exemplify the [i]fact[/i] that God lives [u]in[/u] us and is proven that it is in fact true because it is evident, not because we jump through a maze of hoops, because we can move through the scriptures adeptly, have air tight doctrinal constructs, methods, formulas, sales pitches ...

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

True or not true, there is no middle.

Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye [u]be[/u] my disciples.

Am just besides myself here... How wonderfully bizarre has this journey been thus far? It is to but go back and look at what the Lord has done, not to just this fool, but with so many of us here. Much evidence! Well ... I do pray so anyway, that we all are being challenged and molded and made to reconsider everything the Lord is trying to get through to us.

Was musing a bit on this yesterday so perhaps it is why it is so gushing forth here ... In my case as it progressed from faith to faith I didn't have any starting point so to speak as far as "Christian" constructs go. I was 'led' astray off to the sad world of 'Name it and claim it", got tossed around for awhile, suffered a great deal by folly and ignorance. Where am I going with this? This thought came up while I was driving yesterday; When it comes to the scriptures they are as alive as they have always been and ever will be. The point of recognition is not in reading them and applying them as much as there is no escaping that what you are reading is already answering to an inward knowing, you know the thing is true because it answers to the same Spirit, the Holy Spirit whose words they are. It's recognition. We cloud everything up by our still yet naturalness and brain strain, our searching for a buttressing or a prop for a position and how reticent we can be to let go some of them. We often defend things to an absurdity. Such stubbornness. [i]Tongues[/i]! For just one of many an example. Of all things, the outbreak of war amongst the saints over [i]this[/i]? It's utterly amazing how much pride there still is amongst ourselves over speculation and opinions, that often have yet to be tested by the [i]whole[/i] counsel of Gods Word.

This feels very disjointed and where it is intended to go I am unsure, just spilling forth what is on my heart. A part of it is just getting down to the real bottom of matters. I can still recall hearing how "Christianity is not about 'do's and 'dont's'" and thinking, how absurd, of course it is! And whatever the answer given was, it didn't seem anywhere adequate. It may be in just this manner of why we do what we do? Is it because we [i]ought[/i] or because we can do no other? Is it because it truly is ...

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. ?

I just cannot get past this matter of honesty. It has continually been on my heart and in my thoughts and prayers. [i]In Spirit and in Truth[/i]. Honesty.

A matter that is both troubling and needed to be glaringly exposed, is the inverse and the shear volume of dis-honesty that is present in this day's brand of religious sentiment and outworkings. It is a matter of what could be called Christian manipulation. Another post at another time.

What is breaking my heart is that it us that the trouble is with. We can postulate and curse the darkness forever and a day and still miss having or giving evidence of any other alternative. Are we a caste of squabbling, arguing theological arm chair generals or a compelling re-born wonder of wonders? It is an impossibility to think we can over estimate the necessity of the new birth. There is no beginning otherwise, everything else is a facade and worse than worthless it's down right diabolical and ultimately satanic.

Let me leave with this thought that crept up yesterday. The beauty of the thief on the cross ... Oh, how I had never really thought of the most compelling and critical aspect of what took place in that moment...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The Lord told him so.

Exactly as He must tell each of us.
Not a preacher, not saying a prayer ... alone. One will have to get 'alone' and pray somewhere, sometime, in the depth of their being and exchange this dead life for true life ... and the Lord must tell you so. You will surely know it when it has taken place, even if you never recall the date.

"""What is breaking my heart is that it us that the trouble is with. We can postulate and curse the darkness forever and a day and still miss having or giving evidence of any other alternative. Are we a caste of squabbling, arguing theological arm chair generals or a compelling re-born wonder of wonders? It is an impossibility to think we can over estimate the necessity of the new birth. There is no beginning otherwise, everything else is a facade and worse than worthless it's down right diabolical and ultimately satanic."""

The trouble has always been with us, even before the foundation of the world we were chosen to be in Christ, and Christ was chosen to be in us, our glory. What does this say about the knowledge of God in control of all time known and unknown. It must be so, not as a question but as a must to be so, and I am in His control, time and space, known or unknown.

In bringing Christ to us-ward, He has acknowledged that all in your quote is true and fact. It is our responsibility to seek out and embrace what He has provided for our salvation. He wants son's in His House, a glorious House. He will get son's in His Glorious House, because that is His desire. The pleasure of God is His pleasure and it will come to pass, even at the expense of taking His only begotten Son and killing Him on a Cross that He, even God might be justified in bringing redeemed son's into His house. All we can do is,

Proverbs 3:1-13 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of His correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a Father the Son in whom He delighteth. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

Who is our wisdom? 1 Corinthians 1:30 Who is our Teacher of this wisdom? John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The center of this dissertation is Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

This is our trust, the Christ that has been birthed in us, that these vile bodies and hearts might be changed to the Glorious Spirit, Body and Mind of Christ, and we might be changed into
The glorious son's of God in the salvation of our soul's that God breathed into the spirit of life, and that life is the glorious life Jesus Christ In us the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27

A mystery, oh, yes a great mystery now revealed to His son's who have become saints as His Only Begotten Son is much more than even the chiefest of Saints, far above all principalities and powers and all that is, That Is Christ In you the Hope of Glory.

By a Life freely given, shedding His Blood, to purchase son's for His Father, and for the sin of the world. Jesus Christ and it is in Him that we live a move and have our being, the Just for the unjust. It is in Him Jesus Christ: Who first had to be born again in us or we could not be in Christ or do anything in Christ. To the acknowledgement of the Mystery Col 2:2. Which the mystery is: Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Phillip

Well, Here is my personal experience:

I was born and raised in the church. I can remember times in my very early childhood where during sunday school I would say the sinners prayer along with the teacher. I can rmemeber being 4 years old walking the car with my mom after church and contunially asking Jesus in my heart. It is a VERY vauge event.

I have never answered a salvation altercall and do not remember the day month or year that I was saved.

But what I can tell you in ABSOLUTE certainty is that I am saved and that I am filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and that I communicate with God on a daily basis. I am an American missionary to the Philippines and I am here serving a God whom I know and love dearly.

So in my experience does one need to know the date of their salvation? No.

Be Blessed,
Keith

By the way Phillip you have some good insights.

Thank you Keith,

May all the insight be to the truth of Christ in us and all wisdom coming from Him. We are just vessels of clay holding the treasure of God in Christ Jesus taught by the Holy Spirit.

I pray that your missionary field be fertile ground for the Christ in you. May His work in you be even greater than the short time He was here on this earth in the Flesh. Now His Spirit that is birthed in us and His Life in whom we live and move and have our being, move greatly in the fields ready for His harvest.

In all wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption being made in you by God through Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Our fellowship being in Christ: Phillip

Mike B said:

Perhaps rephrased might be, to recall the date?

I remember from my Baptist days that HAVING a date was crucial. It was our ticket. By it we could belong to the fellowship and take part. However, I fear that over time the DATE has become just as idolatrous as the bronze serpent on the pole became to the Israelites. People rely on that cherished marker for their sense of eternal security. I do not see the "marker" requirement in scripture.

Clearly God draws our focus to the journey - to run the race with perseverance. Let’s face it, in any race the starting point is not the highlight of the event, though it is an important moment. (a discussion about false starts could be profitable)

When our penchant for dates supersedes our concerns for the journey, we do much damage to the life of the church. We leave people in the baby buggy for the rest of their lives. Then we wonder why so many don’t seem to grow up.

I hardly knew what was taking place

Since Jesus has clearly told us that we can’t see the work of the Spirit – where it blows, where it comes from – then why do we keep on trying to “see the wind” – why do we need to know? Why do we keep trying to dig up that seed that is planted in the ground and try to see what is happening to it. Is there a sinful longing in our hearts that drives us to this?

Microscopes and timecharts are helpful in the field of science and medicine, but they can be deadly in the spiritual field.

Ron said:

Man seems to be always prone to interpret all that God does as it benefits him, without concern for the desire of the Father's heart.

Thank you all for the many thoughtful responses.

PS. Perhaps at some point a discussion on the EVIDENCE of a reborn soul would be beneficial.

Diane