Hi IRONMAN,
Since earlier days here and even our own ... seemingly at odds with each other over this matter of prophets... Just want to say I have come to appreciate and recognize the change in your ... perspective as it has evolved. Just noting that change and hope that many of us are not only willing but have been changed through all that goes on through our coming together to work through matters. My own perspective is and has often been altered and adjusted, been put to the challenge, another consideration, another contemplation.
And the proverbial ... [i]but[/i] :-)
Still think a great deal of what is taken issue with is the definition of what a prophet
[u]now[/u] is, in this day. Apologize for the length here but for some consideration;
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[b]1Co 14:1-40[/b] -
Two Verses in this Chapter 14 demand a little attention (1Co_14:1-2 — the 3rd and the 6th (1Co_14:3; 1Co_14:6). Verse 3 (1Co_14:3) is the effect, or rather the quality, of that which a prophet says, and not a definition. He edifies, he encourages, he comforts, by speaking. Nevertheless these words shew the character of what he said. Prophecy is in no wise simply the revelation of future events, although prophets as such have revealed them. A prophet is one who is so in communication with God as to be able to communicate His mind. A teacher instructs according to that which is already written, and so explains its import. But, in communicating the mind of God to souls under grace, the prophet encouraged and edified them. With regard to Verse 6 (1Co_14:6, it is plain that coming with tongues (by the use of which the Corinthians like children, loved to shine in the assembly) he that so spoke, edified no one, for he was not understood. Perhaps he did not understand himself, but was the unintelligent instrument of the Spirit, whilst having the powerful impression of the fact that God spoke by his means, so that in the Spirit he felt that he was in communication with God, although his understanding was unfruitful. In any case no one could speak for the edification of the assembly unless he communicated the mind of God.
Of such communication the apostle distinguishes two kinds — revelation and knowledge. The latter supposes a revelation already given, of which some one availed himself by the Holy Ghost for the good of the flock. He then points out the gifts which were respectively the means of edifying in these two ways. It is not that the two latter terms (1Co_14:6) are the equivalents of the two former; but the two things here spoken of as edifying the church were accomplished by means of these two gifts. There might be"prophecy" without its being absolutely a new revelation, although there was more in it than knowledge. It might contain an application of the thoughts of God, an address on the part of God to the soul, to the conscience, which would be more than knowledge, but which would not be a new revelation. God acts therein without revealing a new truth, or a new fact. "Knowledge," or "doctrine," teaches truths, or explains the word, a thing very useful to the assembly; but in it there is not the direct action of the Spirit in application, and thus not the direct manifestation of the presence of God to men in their own conscience and heart. When any one teaches, he who is spiritual profits by it; when one prophesies, even he who is not spiritual may feel it, he is reached and judged; and it is the same thing with the Christian's conscience. Revelation, or knowledge, is a perfect division and embraces everything. Prophecy, and doctrine, are in intimate connection with the two; but prophecy embraces other ideas, so that this division does not exactly answer to the first two terms.
The apostle insists largely on the necessity for making oneself understood, whether one speaks, or sings, or prays. He desires — and the remark is of all importance in judging men's pretensions to the Spirit — that the understanding be in exercise. He does not deny that they might speak with tongues without the understanding being at all in it — a thing of evident power and utility when persons were present who understood no other language, or whose natural language it was. But, in general, it was an inferior thing when the Spirit did not act upon, and therefore by means of, the understanding in him who spoke. Communion between souls in a common subject, through the unity of the Spirit, did not exist when he who spoke did not understand what he said. The individual speaking did not himself enjoy, as from God, what he communicated to others. If others did not understand it either, it was child's play to utter words without meaning to the hearers. But the apostle desired to understand himself that which he said, although he spoke in many tongues; so that it was not jealousy on his part. He spoke more foreign tongues, by the gift of the Holy Ghost, than they all. But his soul loved the things of God — loved to receive truth intelligently from Him — loved to hold intelligent intercourse with others; and he would rather say five words with his understanding, than ten thousand without it in an unknown tongue.
What a marvellous power, what a manifestation of the presence of God — a thing worthy of the deepest attention — and, at the same time, what superiority to all carnal vanity, to the lustre reflected upon the individual by means of gifts — what moral power of the Spirit of God, where love saw nothing in these manifestations of power in gift but instruments to be used for the good of the assembly and of souls! It was the practical force of that love, to the exercise of which, as being superior to gifts, he exhorted the faithful. It was the love and the wisdom of God directing the exercise of His power for the good of those whom He loved. What a position for a man! What simplicity is imparted by the grace of God to one who forgets self in humility and love, and what power in that humility! The apostle confirms his argument by the effect that would be produced on strangers who might come into the assembly, or on unenlightened Christians, if they heard languages spoken which no one understood: they would think them mad. Prophecy, reaching their conscience, would make them feel that God was there — was present in the assembly of God.
Gifts were abundant in Corinth. Having regulated that which concerned moral questions, the apostle in the second place regulates the exercise of those gifts. Every one came with some manifestation of the power of the Holy Ghost, of which they evidently thought more than of conformity to Christ. Nevertheless the apostle acknowledges in it the power of the Spirit of God, and gives rules for its exercise. Two or three might speak with tongues, provided there was an interpreter, so that the assembly might be edified. And this was to be done one at a time, for it appears they even spoke several at once. In the same way as to the prophets: two or three might speak, the others would judge if it really came from God. For, if it were given to them of God, all might prophesy; but only one at a time, that all might learn — a dependence always good for the most gifted prophets — and that all might be comforted. The spirits of the prophets (that is to say, the impulse of the power in the exercise of gifts) were subject to the guidance of the moral intelligence which the Spirit bestowed on the prophets. They were, on God's part, masters of themselves in the use of these gifts, in the exercise of this marvellous power which wrought in them. It was not a divine fury, as the pagans said of their diabolical inspiration, which carried them away; for God could not be the author of confusion in the assembly, but of peace. In a word we see that this power was committed to man in his moral responsibility; an important principle, which is invariable in the ways of God. God saved man by grace, when he had failed in his responsibility; but all that He has committed to man, whatever may be the divine energy of the gift, man holds as responsible to use it for the glory of God, and consequently for the good of others and especially for the assembly.
Women were to be silent in the assembly: it was not permitted to them to speak. They were to remain in obedience and not to direct others. The law moreover held the same language. It would be a shame to hear them speak in public. If they had had questions to ask, they might inquire of their husbands at home.
With all their gifts, the word did not come out from the Corinthians, nor had it come unto them only; they ought to submit to the universal order of the Spirit in the assembly. If they pretended to be led by the Spirit, let them acknowledge (and this would prove it,) that the things which the apostle wrote to them were the commandments of the Lord: a very important assertion; a responsible and serious position of this wonderful servant of God.
What a mixture of tenderness, of patience, and of authority! The apostle desires that the faithful should come to the truth and to order, conducted by their own affections; not fearing, if necessary for their good, to avail himself of an authority without appeal, as speaking directly from God — an authority which God would justify if the apostle was forced unwillingly to use it. If any were ignorant that he wrote by the Spirit with the authority of God, it was ignorance indeed; let such be given up to their ignorance. Spiritual and simple men would be delivered from such pretensions. Those who were really filled with the Spirit would acknowledge that what the apostle wrote came immediately from God, and was the expression of His wisdom, of that which became Him: for often there may be the recognition of divine or even human wisdom when it is found, where there was not the ability to find it, nor, if it were perceived in part, the power to set it forth with authority. Meanwhile the man of pretension, reduced to this place, would find the place profitable, and that which he needed.
We shall also observe here the importance of this assertion of the apostle's with regard to the inspiration of the epistles. That which he taught for the details even of the order of the assembly, was so really given of God, came so entirely from God, that they were the commandments of the Lord. For doctrine we have, at the end of the Epistle to the Romans, the same declaration that it was by means of prophetic writings that the gospel was disseminated among the nations.
The apostle resumes his instructions by saying, that they should desire to prophesy, not forbid to speak with tongues, and that all should be done with order and propriety.
John Darby
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[b]it seems to me that if one walks up to me and says "i'm a righteous man" or "i'm a prophet" and i take him at his word i'd get the reward which comes with it. whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen.[/b] however the word says also that whoever receives such receives Christ and whoever receives Christ receives the Father. Brethren the reward is a small thing but this receiving of Christ and thus the Father is where it's all at! To receive a prophet, an apostle or whatever is to acknowledge the authority in which that person speaks and this is also to acknowledge God Himself speaking through that person because without God at work or moving in that person, nothing will happen.that way when we hear the person say "thus sayeth the Lord" we listen and take note and not do what Israel did so many times before and reap the reward of that... There is a gravity which we must reckon with concerning our God and when He speaks because He expects His decrees to be followed and so we dare not reject anything He says or treat it flippantly lest we disobey God, fail to glorify Him and receive whatever blessimgs come with that (His glory is our benefit) and instead reap the judgement which comes with the rejection of His word.
The way you have couched this is quite problematic brother. To take someone at their word, who comes in their [i]own[/i] name (or even in the Name of the Lord for that matter)as a precursor to [i]"whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen"[/i] is a dangerous precedent and very much the problem with so many Christians not putting things to the test, but to first accept, than sort latter, if at all. We are full circle back to being good Bereans as well as thinking spirtualy and if I could term it this way, having some spiritual intuitiveness.
Had a rather peculiar dream last week and may the brother forgive me here for divulging this by use of his name, it was a dream after all... The setting was some gathering of ... SermonIndex'ers (!) that is kind of vague, outdoors I seem to recall. Let me give this caveat of clarification here first. I am not 'interpreting' this, just stating it as it came across, would hate for anyone to run off with it... The bulk of the saints were having some form of conversation over many things, not unlike this forum (the forum come to life in the physical?)Some of it seemed rather pleasant, some heated and hostile, some ...silly... kind of on the surface level, chit-chat, that sort of thing. For whatever reason was just detached from it all, off alone, kind of watching it from afar. Someone came up close by and Robert Wurtz (our brother here) had said just a couple of things that were of his usual well articulated and heartfelt candor to him... But the thing that stuck and struck though it really is of no surprise.... While he was standing there near me, without saying a word to me personally, I could not only feel, but know that he could see right through me. Better yet, that fact was both comforting and welcome, an easy transparency, sins, failings and all.
The whole point here is just that character is one thing, spiritual character, quite another.
False humility is a great problem as well and agree, just as well rejection and misunderstanding is not confined to the 'prophet' nor does it necessarily 'prove' anything ...
[i]The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.[/i] Mat 10:24,25
