Eternal Security

The Calvinist stresses, rightly, God's sovereignty and divine prerogative, while the Arminian stresses, also rightly, man's free will and responsibility. The two positions, however, must be considered together if they are to be properly understood. Salvation is received and kept by faith (Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 10:38; 1 Peter 1:5; Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:20, 21). Continued sin will adversely affect the believer's faith (1 John 1:8; 3:8; Romans 3:5-8; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3; Hebrews 3:12-14; 12:1). The believer's salvation is forfeited by rejecting Christ (John 17:12; Hebrews 10:38; 1 Timothy 4:1; 5:12, 15; 1 John 5:16; 2 Peter 2:20; Hebrews 10:26, 27; 6:4-6). John 15:6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth.Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire; because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of his God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united. (Adam Clark's Commentary on the Bible)Luke 8:13 Now they upon the rock are they who when they hear receive the word with joy: and these have no roots: for they believe for a while and in time of temptation they fall away.This refers to someone who probably was not genuinely saved to begin with. One of my spiritual mentors says "I believe in once-saved, always saved, if you're saved". Have you guys ever read True and False Conversion by Charles Finney? It really made me think.God does not withdraw the power of choice from the person who believes. By the exercise of free will the believer becomes a child of God, and by the continued exercise of free will he remains a child of God. To keep on believing is the believer's responsibility.Sin and unbelief are closely related. Sin jeopardizes faith, and loss of faith means loss of standing. Hebrews 3:12-14 bears this out. The writer warned the brethren against unbelief which will lead to a departure from the living God. He mentioned the deceitfulness of sin as the cause of unbelief and reminded them that we are partakers of Christ only if we hold the beginning of our confidence unto the end.1 Timothy 1:18-19This command I entrust to you Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight keeping faith and a good conscience which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.Paul uses the analogy of a shipwreck here. In order for you to be involved in a shipwreck, you have to get on a boat...you do not have to leave the dock, but you do need to be on the boat. There can be no confusing the fact that Paul is speaking in regards to salvation when he speaks of "suffering shipwreck in regard to their faith."1 Timothy 4:16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching, persever in these things for, as you do this you will ensure salvation for yourself and your hearers.Paul told Timothy that by doing this, he could ensure salvation for himself and his listeners. If something must be done to ensure it, it must not be completely assured.If paying close attention to oneself and ones teaching can assure salvation, the reverse is also true, if one does not do that, salvation could be in jeopardy.Jesus said "If any would come after Me, he must deny himself daily and take up his cross and follow Me". Jesus said "If you remain in Me, I will remain in you". Both of those statements are conditional on things that we will do or not do. In the end, He will separate the sheep from the goats according to what they did and didn't do. Jesus never said anything that can be remotely construed as "You will be saved no matter what.

John 17:12 - he was a devil, Jn 6:70-71;Hebrews 10:38 - certainly God would not be pleased with him, Heb. 11:6;1 Timothy 4:1 - not saved in the first place like Gal. 5:4;1 Tim. 5:12 - Compare 1 Tim. 2:15, childbearing doesn't save her soul, neither does remarriage put a widow in hell;1 Tim. 5:15 - turning aside after Satan doesn't put a saved person in hell, it puts him in reproach, a snare, condemnation, destruction of the flesh, etc. (1 Tim. 3:6,7; 1 Cor. 5:5);1 John 5:16 - sins that kill him like 1 Cor. 10:5-11, 1 Cor. 11:30, but not put him in hell;2 Peter 2:20 - all lost, never saved, these are the false prophets and false teachers, read the entire chapter;Hebrews 10:26, 27 - compare 10:38-39 here's a fellow that has the knowledge of the truth, which many do and then he draws back, whereas the fellow that gets saved is "of them that believe to the saving of the soul." According to the study of the "covenants", this fellow could fall under the resumption of the covenant with Moses during the tribulation, just like Heb. 6:4-6, and actually "lose" his salvation.Jn. 15:6 - he is cast forth "as" a branch. Then he wasn't a branch to begin with and so he is burned. The non-fruit bearing branches are simply taken away in v. 2Etc.It is not possible to lose your salvation between the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the rapture of the church.Before Christ died for our sins, it was possible to lose salvation because a man could turn from his righteousness and die in his iniquity, Eze. 18:24. Likewise, during the tribulation, a man can lose his salvation because he can take the mark of the beast (Rev. 14:9-11). Since there is an element of works in the tribulation, a man could refuse to endure unto the end of the tribulation, quit keeping the commandments and lose his salvation, as well (Matt. 24:13, Rev. 14:12, Rev. 12:17).Nevertheless, in the church, saved people have several things that happen to them that prevent them from losing their salvation.They are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and made a member of his flesh and of his bones (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 5:30-32). Christ would have to perform an amputation to get you out of his body.They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30).They are already raised with Christ and seated with him in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6). Christ would have to kick you out of heaven to make you lose your salvation.They are held in the hand of God Almighty, out of which no man can pluck them and from which no man can fall (Jn. 10:28-29, Jude 24).They have already been made sons of God (Jn. 1:12, 1 Jn. 3:1-3). Even in the earth, nothing can change the blood relationship of a father and a son. Likewise, now that you are a son of God, nothing can break that relationship.They are protected by the love of God from which nothing can separate them (Rom. 8:38-39).God gives us numerous promises in his word that when we are saved, he will not let us lose it.Jn. 5:24, we have already "passed from death unto life."Jn. 6:37, he "will in no wise cast out" those whom he has saved.I Jn. 5:13, when you are saved you "know that ye have eternal life."Heb. 13:5, when you are saved, you have God’s promise, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee."So, you would have to reject all of those promises and all of that doctrine in order to reject eternal security. Don’t do that!!

Look at the CONTEXT of 2 Pet 2. Some people say, "When I read 2 Pet. 2:20-21 in its full Biblical context, I don't see how it reads differently than when it stands on its own." Well, look at the verse numbers that follow below and the subject of those verses from 2 Pet. 2:1. False prophets, false teachers, damnable heresies denying the Lord that bought them, swift destruction.2. Pernicious ways, the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.3. Covetousness, feigned words, judgment, damnation.4. They are compared with the fallen angels.5. They are compared to Noah's day, the world of the ungodly.6. They are compared to Sodom & Gomorrah.7. The filthy conversation of the wicked.8. Their unlawful deeds9. To reserve the unjust ... to be punished.10. Walk after the flesh, despise government, presumptuous, self willed, speak evil of dignities.12. As natural brute beasts, destroyed, speak evil, shall utterly perish in their own corruption.13. The reward of unrighteousness, riot, spots, blemishes, own deceivings.14. Eyes full of adultery cannot cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls, cursed children.15. Forsaken the right way, gone astray.17. Wells without water.18. Great swelling words of vanity, wantonness.19. The servants of corruption.2 Pet. 2 is not talking about Christians, just because of the phrase, "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". The verse didn't say "their" Lord and Savior. It said "the" Lord and Savior, because there is only one. But, according to the entire context, they surely weren't saved.The whole context in 2 Pet. 2 is about false teachers and preachers who know the way of righteousness and who know that Jesus Christ is the Lord and the Savior, but who have willfully rejected His personal salvation because of their lust, self will, presumption, covetousness, and deceit.Some say that they can't believe that the devil or false teachers and preachers know the Lord. Well, the Bible says the devil does know him. Just look:James 2:19, the devils BELIEVE that there is one God.Mark 1:24, "I KNOW thee who thou art, THE Holy One of God." You know who said that? An unclean spirit said that.Mark 1:34, Jesus "suffered not the devils to speak, because they KNEW him."Mark 5:6-7, a man possessed with Legion devils WORSHIPPED Jesus saying, "...Jesus, thou son of the most high God."Acts 16:16-18, a woman possessed with a spirit of divination said of Paul repeatedly, "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the WAY OF SALVATION." Then he cast out that spirit.Some say, "I don’t believe 'the knowledge of Jesus Christ' can be talking about a non-Christian or even demonic experience." Well, there are five verses or references from the Bible showing beyond the shadow of a doubt that the devils believe in God, worship Him, know Him, know that He is THE God, and know that His is the way of salvation.According to 2 Pet. 3:18, a man can grow "in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" if he is saved. Notice that he said, "OUR Lord." 2 Pet 2 said, "THE Lord." But if he is lost, that knowledge is going to be used against him and his latter end is going to be worse than the beginning if he doesn't repent and get saved. :-(

There was once an old preacher who had a reputation of being very loving and open to the members of his church. He would regularly have church members come to his home with trials and tribulations and request his help and advice. In the middle of the night one night, his family let a man into the house, a member of the church who said he needed counsel from the pastor. So he was ushered into the pastors study and the pastor was called down. As he rounded the corner into the room, the pastor looked up to see a large man come down on him with a machete, severely wounding him and in fact crippling him for life. Fortunately, the pastors sons were able to wrestle the man away from their father and call the authorities to resolve the situation.A few weeks later, an evengelist friend of mine was talking with a pastor friend of his who said of the situation, "Oh my, how horrible! Can you believe a Christian would do such a thing?" My friend immediately answered "Of course not! Do you seriously believe that a man that would do that is truly a Christian?!"The point is that a true, repentant, new creation, Christian would never do such a thing as that, just like a Christian would never get the mark of the beast. There is no such thing as "losing" your salvation and the above mentioned verses prove that.Luke 8:13 "Now they upon the rock are they who when they hear receive the word with joy: and these have no roots: for they believe for a while and in time of temptation they fall away."This refers to someone who ABSOLUTELY was not genuinely saved to begin with. Jesus himself said that "NO ONE will pluck you from my Father's hand." It is a very safe bet, based on the Truth of scripture that ANYONE you ever meet who claims that they "used to be a Christian" was most certainly not a Christian to begin with. A knowledge of God and even a belief in God is not enough to save someone. Even the demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and they are not saved! Take a look at John 8:27-47. Jesus preaches to a group of Jews who literaly put their faith in him or, believe. BUT, when Jesus starts talking about sin and righteousness, they become angry with Him and eventually attempt to stone Him! Did they somehow lose their salvation suddenly? No, they never had salvation! As soon as Jesus tells them of their bondage to sin, they immediately become angry and justify themselves. John 8:41b- "We are not illegitimate children" they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself" Jesus answers they're protest in verse 42 by revealing that they were in fact not Christians, though they believed and claimed to be:"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and now am here." Verse 44:"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire!"Friends, my point is that there is no weaving back and forth between saved and unsaved. If we are saved, we are saved for all eternity without question because we are new creations. The Bible promises that there will be MANY who say "Lord, Lord, didn't we go to church and say the sinners prayer and tithe, a preach to thousands in your name?" And our great Father will answer them, "Away from me you worker of iniquity!" (Matthew 7:23) because they neve truly came face to face with God's Law and saw their wretched state of filth caused by their breaking of His mighty commandments (sin) Because of that, they were never able to repent and recieve His forgiveness. Those who do not repent, will move in and out of their "relationship" but will be called lukewarm on the day of judgement and spewed out of the mouth of Christ (Rev. 21:8)

I believe in the sovereignty of God and that He is in control and will preserve those who trust in Him.I also believe in the free will of man and the responsibility we have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.I don't believe that God withdraws the power of choice from the person who believes. We choose to become a child of God, and by the continued exercise of free will we remain children of God. I agree that there have been many churchgoing people who have fallen away because they were simply not really saved in the first place.I also agree that turning aside after Satan doesn't put a saved person in hell, but if that person continues in that way it will not be a good thing for him in the end.Some who have had the knowledge of the truth will fall back into the world. Jesus said there were four types of soil that seed could fall on.Paul said that he disciplined himself daily, so that after he had preached to others he himself would not become a castaway.Joshua said Choose you this day whom you will serve. If I have the choice to choose righteousness, I also have the choice to walk away from it.Jesus said that if we continue in his word, then are we truly his disciples. That's a conditional statement. There are many conditional if/then statements in the Bible that speak of God's mercy and forgiveness.If we who are called by His name will humble ourselves and pray and turn from our wicked ways, then He will hear from heaven and answer our prayer and heal our land.If all blessing, forgiveness, healing and salvation are already automatically guaranteed, why even pray at all?Yes, I believe that a man can grow "in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" and later have that knowledge used against him at the judgement seat of Christ because he did not repent and get saved because of that knowledge.I read the Bible almost every day for about 3 years before I got saved. I had a fairly good general knowledge of the Bible, but it wouldn't have done me any good just to know it until I started acting upon it and doing what it said.But if the people in Luke 8 believed for awhile before they fell away, what do you have to believe and just how long do you have to believe it before you can be saved? If all you have to do to be saved is "just believe" then why weren't these people saved? Because they fell away? And why did they fall away? Because they chose not to stay? Or were they predestined not to be saved?"Away from me you worker of iniquity!" (Matthew 7:23) implies to me that there was something wrong with these people's works that prevented them from getting into heaven.To be cut off from the vine means that we were once a part of it. A person may be united to Christ as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet later be cut off and cast into the fire because he did not bring forth fruit unto righteousness. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united.

A simple belief in Christ is not enough to save us. It takes belief, repentance, death to self, and a giving of our lives to Christ. Then he can make us into a new creation. All of your statements about someone falling away are false and can not be backed up Biblicly. Jesus said "no one will pluck you from my fathers hand" and if God has saved someone, God will keep them. Anyone who would fall away from the faith, never came face to face with the eternal Law of God (The Ten Commandments, (Psalm 19:7, Romans 7:7, Galatians 3:24) and therefore never experienced the Godly sorrow which works repentence. (2 Corinthians 7:10) They came to Christ lacking repentence, without which you can not be saved. (Matthew 3:8, Mark 1:4, Luke 5:32, LUKE 15:7, Luke 24:47, Acts 20:21, 2 Timothy 2:25, 2 PETER 3:9, etc.)

Can someone be saved and always be saved no matter what?1Jo 1:6 If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," and are walking about [fig., conducting ourselves] in the darkness, we are lying and are not doing the truth.1Jo 3:8 The one practicing sin is from the Devil, because the Devil [has been] sinning from [the] beginning. For this [reason] the Son of God was revealed, so that He should destroy the works of the Devil.1Jo 3:9 Every one having been begotten from God is not practicing sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to be sinning, because he has been begotten from God. 1Jo 3:10 By this are revealed [who are] the children of God and the children of the Devil: every one not practicing righteousness is not from God, and the one not loving his brother.If we return to sin and continue in it, we are no longer the children of God, but children of the devil.But the one that has been truly saved will not return to sin because the seed of God has been planted in him. What determines if the seed will remain and grow is the condition of the soil.Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.Hos 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.Is God going to replow the ground of our hearts everytime it gets hard? Or is that something that He is requiring us to do, according to these verses?Nothing can separate us from the love of God. But is it possible for us to remove ourselves from the grace of God if we continue in sin?Heb 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God. Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; The writer of Hebrews was speaking to the "brethren" who were saved that they should take heed not to "depart" from the living God.Those of us who endure until the end will be saved IF we endure until the end. There's another conditional statement.Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils1Ti 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Herdman wrote:Before Christ died for our sins, it was possible to lose salvation because a man could turn from his righteousness and die in his iniquity, Eze. 18:24. Likewise, during the tribulation, a man can lose his salvation because he can take the mark of the beast (Rev. 14:9-11). Since there is an element of works in the tribulation, a man could refuse to endure unto the end of the tribulation, quit keeping the commandments and lose his salvation, as well (Matt. 24:13, Rev. 14:12, Rev. 12:17).Why is it that you imply that works have ever had anything to do with salvation? Salvation has always been by grace through faith, no matter what testament in which one has lived. -Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness (The testimony of Genesis and Romans).-David (who lived under the Old Covenant even) recognized that man was credited as righteous apart from the law (Romans 4:6-8).Romans 9:32 says Israel "did not pursue it [righteousness] by faith, *but* as though it were by works." Salvation has never been by works, is not by works, and will never be by works. It has always been by the grace of God through faith. However, be careful if you think "faith" is simply a mental ascent to a formula. Be careful that if you think that after you have accepted Christ, that you can live in disobedience to Him...or rather, are unfaithful (disobedience and unfaithful/unbelieving are syonymns). Many people like to show verses in the NT where Christ says that He will never leave or forsake anybody, but never seem to show verses from the OT where God says he would not leave or forsake anybody... yet later does. Many seem ignorant of the fact that Israel and Judah also believed "Once Saved Always Saved." They thought because they had the temple of the Lord, all was well, and that individuals like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. were all liars. They thought that surely the calamity that the prophets spoke of would not befall them as a result of their sins. Proponents of "once saved always saved" are guilty of saying "amen" to their doctrine.

I believe the bottom line is this: If you believe in "once saved always saved" as I like to call it, and you are wrong... you are in deadly danger of hellfire. If you are right, then... you are right.If you believe that you are only truly saved from Hell once the Heavenly Gates close behind you, and you are wrong... you have still made it. If you are right, then you were extra vigilant with your soul. It's not debatable... those that believe in the "easy way" in that once they are saved they are always saved and have attained eternal security, they are not vigilant with their souls, and not only their souls, but the souls of every person they have taught this doctrine to. If they are wrong, they have, together, condemned hundreds of thousands of souls into Hell, because they believed they were going to heaven because of "eternal security". I know many many many people that are living in sin right now because they think that they have eternal security once they have "accepted Christ into their heart". This is one of the most dangerous doctrines known to man. Look at Ezekiel 33:1-20 for this. It speaks of the final judgement, not merely of the old testiment, but of the new as well. It talks about, in especially verse 13, just what happens to those that are "saved" that trust in their own rightousness. No shortcuts. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".-JW

Let's say a man becomes a Christian - he is baptised with the Holy Spirit into Christ's death, burial and resurrection and placed into His body - the Church, he is now a Justified son of GodLet's say for arguments sake this man now didn't want to be a son of God, how can God Unjustify/Unadopt him?

Let's say for arguments sake this man now didn't want to be a son of God, how can God Unjustify/Unadopt him?Man would be found "unjustified" when he ceases to live by faith. For justification can only come by faith. I'm not sure I like the term "unadopt" (as I don't know of any biblical usage of the word), but rather, you have individuals like Esau who sold their inheritance for a single meal. You also have individuals like the prodigal son who simply choose to abandon their Father's house for the things of this world. You also have lazy slaves, whose master has gone out on a long journey, and think their master is not coming for a long time. For that matter, the Bible teaches in 1 John that we show who our father is based on who we live for, either satan or God. So, I suppose that might be an example of being "unadopted."

How can God "unadopt" us? Read Romans 11. Verse 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.This is a perfect example of how we live and walk, God can and will "unadopt" if we reject him and allow sin to reign in our lives. Read all of Romans 11. It's an excellent chapter on just how we are not supposed to neglect our salvation, lest we lose it...