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God's sovereignty & our free will.

L
Logic Aug 1, 2006

No greater contradiction could be conceived than to say that the wickedness God hated then and hates now was, and is what He desired and presently desires for mankind.

Who would dare to say that the inevitable damnation and eternal torment of billions of His creatures in the Lake of Fire demanded by His holiness and justice is just the way God wanted it to be?!

Yet there are those Calvinists who say exactly that, declaring that God doesn't love all or want all to be saved, that Christ did not die for all, and that God predestined those billions to suffer eternally. Those who teach this are sincere people and mean well, But they are making God out to be less loving and merciful than we expect of one another.

How do they justify this doctrine? Its proponents earnestly believe they are defending God's sovereignty. Failing to understand that evil is something God allows but doesn't will. They mistakenly imagine that if anything could happen (good or evil) that God did not will it would mean that He was not sovereign. They refuse to consider the obvious fact (supported bv hundreds of Bible verses) that God sovereignly gave man the moral responsibility and power of obeying or disobeying Him, of loving or hating Him.

Unless this is true, obedience and reward, disobedience and punishment, love and hate—and much of the Bible itself—have no meaning. The fact that God is sovereign need not mean that nothing can happen that He doesn't will. If that were the case when we would have to conclude that God wills the very evil that He hates, an obvious contradiction not only in logic but in character.

Confusion at this point justifies the sneering complaint of the atheist who claims he cannot believe in God because of evil: "If your God can't stop all evil and suffering. He is too weak to be God. And if He can, and doesn't He is a monster not worthy of our trust!"

There is, of course, one obvious answer to this dilemma, and only one: that God in His sovereignty has given mankind the genuine power of free choice and will not take it back. God can pressure, persuade, or plead with man, but He cannot force him against his will or He would destroy the very creature He made.

Remember the exchange of letters over the Columbine massacre:

Dear God,
Why didn't you save the school children in Littleton, Colorado?
Sincerely. Concerned Student.

Dear Concerned Student:
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely, God.

This world of sin, suffering, and death is not God's doing; it is what morally responsible man has irresponsibly brought in opposition to God's will. Or else why would Jesus teach us to pray. "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt 6:l(Why would it be commendable to surrender to God with these words. "Not my will, but thine, be done" (Lk 22:42). if nothing except God's will can happen anyway?

By Dave Hunt.

D
deathdancer Aug 7, 2006

Hi Dave.
Your statement'There is, of course, one obvious answer to this dilemma, and only one: that God in His sovereignty has given mankind the genuine power of free choice and will not take it back.'May i suggest another?
If i understand you correctly mankind has a choice . Frankly i dont have a choice. i am continually biased toward evil.Paul had the same problem,and found himself sinful although he desired good.
If i could choose good all the time, why would i need a saviour? Christ becomes unnecessary,and the holy spirit is out of a job.Christ will not share his glory with anyone,including mankind. He said I will save, I will uphold,I will justify,etc.Why the call to a rebirth if mankind had the power to obey?
If mankind had the power to obey,show me the man that can be sinless for one hour.I would love to shake his hand.
I agree with you that Calvinists got a few things wrong.To suffer eternally one would need immortality, something lacking in the unsaved.But then, what the heck,i get things wrong all the time.
In my humble view,it goes about a principle of holiness in the saved rather than the attainment of holiness.I serve Him poorley but i know that my redeemer lives.
'Why would it be commendable to surrender to God with these words. "Not my will, but thine, be done"..Because my will is corrupt.
Cheers,
Trevor Collins

M
mamaluk Aug 7, 2006

Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the will", helped me with the free will issue quite a bit.

The apostle Paul, after conversion, told us in [b]Romans 7:

18 For I know that in me dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/b]

According to the following verses, our will to sin is only freed by God in Christ,


In [b] Romans 6:

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life[/b]
The will captured by sin is never free in a sense. The following verses also help me to see further that God's sovereign will overrules all.

[b] Ephesians
1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.


Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE" [/b]


mamaluk

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