Predestination

The main objection to predestination I think is something that has been a question for me as well as alot of people - If God really did choose certain people to be saved and certain people to not be saved, how is that fair? I think this part of the article puts it well:God is indeed not unjust if He chooses certain people to be objects of His mercy and grace and not others. After all, God is sovereign and can choose, out of all fallen mankind, who He wants to save. Everybody deserves death as we are all sinners. For God to pardon certain people in Christ is not something He is obliged to do, nor is it something that sinners deserve. God would merely be just in damning all sinners to hell. But instead He chose certain to be saved. There is no injustice done to one wicked man in the pardon of another.God is God, and we are not. His ways are higher than our ways, and the Bible says that His choosing doesn't have anything to do with us, but it's according to His own purpose - and that purpose is for Him to know and not necessarily for us to know and understand, whether we agree with that or not. God can do as He pleases and doesn't need our approval.Some people might think that's harsh, but that's just the way it is. If we all got what we really deserved and what was really fair and just, we'd all be in hell already. So God is not being unfair when He makes a decision to save anyone, but He's being merciful that He would save anyone of us at all.Though I still have questions about the doctrine of predestination as it is taught by calvinists, I believe in the total sovereignty of God. He can do as He pleases because He is God. I don't have the right to question Him because He doesn't owe me anything - not even an explaination of why He does what He does.There are just some things about God that we have to accept even though we might not totally understand them. If we really love God, we will trust that whatever decisions He makes are good and right even if He chooses not to explain to us why He makes those decisions.I believe that God desires for none to perish, but sadly because of the hardness of their own hearts, some will never accept the glorious gospel we believe.Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. (Revelation 22)Whosoever means any person who chooses to may come and drink of the living water offered by Christ.I believe that God attempts to influence everyone to choose what's right, but some have hardened their hearts, and so God has to give them over to a reprobate mind.Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.Notice that Jesus says no one can come to him unless the Father draws him, but then he's saying that he desires to draw ALL men unto himself.2Ti 1:9 God saved us and chose us to be his holy people. We did nothing to deserve this, but God planned it because he is so kind. Even before time began God planned for Christ Jesus to show kindness to us.Our election isn't determined by any merits we have earned to show that salvation is of God, and not of us. He also chose us to show how merciful He is, because in reality, all of us are sinful and deserve hell.God doesn't owe us one bit of mercy, but because He is so loving, He chose to provide a way for us to be forgiven. Thank God for this!2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.In contrast to seeing the sovereignty of God in salvation, Peter points out that we should give diligence to make our election sure, which shows that although there is nothing we could ever do to influence God to love us any more than He already does, we still have a personal responsibility to play an active part in our spiritual development.Rom 9:18-19 Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.Someone may ask, "How can God blame us for not obeying the gospel, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?"If it was not our fault that we disobeyed the gospel, then why should we be punished for this?Rom 9:20 But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?Charles Finney wrote something that talked about people asking the question: If the lost had no choice in the matter of being chosen, then why would it be their fault that they rejected the gospel and why should they be judged for it if it was God's decision? I think in the article he talks about God hardening the hearts of some people because they already did not want to hear to begin with. I'll have to find that.But yes, I agree that salvation is all of God and has nothing to do with our own merits. I would tend to agree with predestination because it shows that salvation is not of works and it also demonstrates God's mercy - He didn't have to save any of us, but He did! And that's the wonder of it. Why would He be inclined to save any one of us at all? There's no good reason why any of us should be saved.God's ways are higher than our ways, and there are just some things about God we will never fully understand no matter how long we live.

You have to check the context of every verse dealing with predestination to see what the verse is referring to. Those who believe that we are predestined to salvation believe that you must be born again BEFORE you can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So, they make every verse dealing with predestination point toward predestination to salvation. But the context of each verse reveals something different.The context of every verse that has the word predestination in it reveals that we are predestined to the following things (none of which is predestination to salvation).A saved person is predestined to:Be Conformed to Jesus ChristRom. 8:29 we are predestined "to be conformed to the image of his Son." You are not predestined to be saved; you are predestined once you are saved to be conformed to Jesus.Be Holy and GuiltlessEph. 1:4 God chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that (here they want to make the verse stop so they can teach that God chose us before the foundation of the world to be saved, but the verse doesn’t stop here – keep reading the sentence) we should be holy and without blame before him in love. That is, God’s choice is that all "in him" would be holy and without blame before him. Right now we are not before him, but we will be and when we are we will be holy and without blame, because that was God’s choice.Be Adopted as God’s ChildEph. 1:5 the predestination here is that he predestined us to be adopted as his children. That is, once you trusted Christ, you were put "in him" and all that are in him will be adopted as his children (Jn. 1:12).Receive an Eternal InheritanceEph. 1:11,12 we are predestinated to receive an inheritance according to God’s purpose and we are to be to the praise of his glory. Christ said that we are to be joint-heirs with him (Rom. 8:17). So, again the context shows that the predestination is not to salvation but to something else. In no case is it ever a reference to a man being predestined to receive Christ or predestined to go to hell because God didn’t choose him. The doctrine of "predestination to salvation" contradicts these verses:God’s will is that ALL should come to repentance2 Pet. 3:9 "… not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance." How could he will that ALL should be saved and yet will that some of those should go to hell at the same time?God’s will is that ALL men be saved1 Tim. 2:4 "Who will have ALL men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." What could be clearer than that? God’s WILL is that ALL men be saved! That’s what the Bible says – no interpretation needed!God gave Jesus as a ransom for ALL1 Tim. 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for ALL…" The Bible clearly shows that Jesus did not die just for the "elect" (those he predestinated to be saved). He died for ALL, that’s what the Bible SAYS!The way the "predestinationists" handle the word ALL in these verses is to limit it to all of the "elect." That’s a clever bit of "private interpretation," (2 Pet. 1:20) to get around the obvious contradiction.As far as Rom. 9 is concerned, that's about the power God exercises "over the clay" (9:21). The soul is a different matter. :-o :-o

The last comment about Romans 9 is truly interesting. Am I to understand that you are saying that all God has control over is clay and not souls? Are you suggesting that Romans 9 is speaking of God's sovereignty over inantimate objects as opposed to people? Surely not! The clay in Romans 9 is a direct reference to the Old Testament and God's use of the Potter and the clay to speak of His sovereignty over Israel.It is always intersting to me that we will allow God to rule over nations and things but not over individuals. Why is that?

Thanks Herdman for that insight into the correct context of these verses you mentioned. Very well said!A saved person is predestined to be adopted as God's child, be conformed to the image of Christ, be holy and without blame, and finally receive an eternal inheritance.Yes, I strongly agree with the scriptures that talk about ALL people having an opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved, and I agree that God gave His Son as a ransom for ALL.Thanks for joining our discussion, tegeoroge! I believe Herdman was referring to the individual soul of a man as a seperate thing from the spirit.When we are born again, our spirit man is saved, but the soul of a man must be brought into submission to Christ each and every day.A good teaching on this can be found in a book called The Release of the Spirit by Watchman Nee.Can you guys tell I love books? ;-)

TaKa, I appreciate your candor and sweet spirit. If you don't mind me saying, I would disagree with your analogy on the soul having not been "saved" also. I hope I'm not misquoting you. Watchman Nee doesn't teach that the soul of man isn't regenerated at the point of salvation....see "The Normal Christian Life" or "The Spiritual Man" both by the afore mentioned author. Again, I hope that I haven't misunderstood you, but if I have forgive me and feel free to correct me. Thanks :-D

I am familiar with Nee and appreciate his life and writings. It is not apparent to me that Nee ever implied that our spirit is saved while our soul is not. Body, soul, and spirit are useful distinctions of man's being but man is still a single being. The context of Romans 6-11 is plainly the working of God in an individual being. Why do we find it so easy to accept God's sovereign act of calling Israel(which was not a nation) into being for no other reason than His own good pleasure but we cannot accept God calling an individual for the same reasons? Romans 9 is talking about God's sovereignty over individuals (as in Jacob and Esau).

Hi tegeorgeIts a long time since I read Watchman Nee but I think his line would have been that the work of regeneration in the spirit is past and perfect, that in the soul present and progressive, and that in the body mostly future. I'm referring, of course, to the believer. The scriptures refer to salvation as being past, present and future. Watchman Nee's idea of biblical psychology was sometimes a little too neat and tidy for my tastes, (I am particularly nervous of diagrams!) but I think he was making some good points here.His only written work was The Spiritual Man, all others were transcripts of his preaching. He is on record as saying he would not reprint The Spiritual Man because it was 'too perfect'. By that I think he meant what I mean by 'too neat and tidy'.His/YoursRon B

By "the soul" I mean our mind, will and emotions, which are things that constantly change and therefore have need of being brought into submission to Christ on a minute by minute basis.Some teach that the spirit and the soul are one and the same, and some teach that the spirit of man is something that is separate from the soul and is that part of man that has communion with God, and that the soul (mind, will and emotions) will either be ruled by the spirit or by the flesh at any given moment depending on how submitted you are to Christ.Maybe I need to go back and read The Spiritual Man again and look again at what Nee says about these things. But if this is what he teaches, I would agree with this view.