BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
News

The Pope Calls for an End to Popular Music in Church

sermonindex Aug 6, 2006

[image][img]https://www.sermonindex.net/images/forum/2004/may/featured_news.gif[/img]

In what may be the most visible — or audible — instance of the present-day Catholic hierarchy's retreat from the reforms of the 1960s and '70s, Pope Benedict XVI has called for an end to popular music in churches, suggesting that traditional chant and sacred polyphony are the suitable accompaniment to worship.

Numerous media outlets — from The Daily Telegraph of London ("Silence modern music in church, says Pope") to the Catholic News Service ("Pope says new liturgical music need not ignore older church music") to LoneStarTimes.com of Texas ("Pope demands end to crappy church music") — reported the pontiff's statement this past week.

The Second Vatican Council of 1962-65 severely curtailed the use of Latin in Catholic services in favor of the vernacular, believing that many potential worshippers were put off attending church by a liturgy in a language they didn't understand. In the same spirit, beginning shortly after Vatican II and continuing in subsequent decades, countless parishes and dioceses have experimented with popular and vernacular music in church — from guitars and panpipes in the Andes to drumming in Africa to flamenco singing in Spain. Rock 'n' roll-style amplified instruments have been tried in many places; in the U.S., the guitar-strumming "folk Mass" has been an object of derision among traditionalists (and music snobs) for a generation.

The Telegraph quoted Pope Benedict as saying, "It is possible to modernise holy music, but it should not happen outside the traditional path of Gregorian chants or sacred polyphonic choral music." He made the comment at a concert on June 24 which placed liturgical music by Palestrina alongside sacred works by Msgr. Domenico Bartolucci, from 1956 to 1997 the director of the Sistine Chapel Choir. The concert would seem intended to serve a purpose analogous to that of the mythical first performance of Palestrina's "Pope Marcellus" Mass, which, legend (and Hans Pfitzner's opera Palestrina) would have it, convinced the prelates at the Council of Trent not to ban sacred polyphony altogether by demonstrating that it could be as spiritually pure and uplifting as plainchant.

An accomplished pianist and devoted Mozart-lover, Pope Benedict — né Joseph Ratzinger — comes from a musical family; his brother Georg was for 30 years the director of the renowned choir of Regensburg Cathedral in Germany, the "Regensburger Domspatzen."

Reaction to the papal pronouncement was predictably mixed. Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, the Archbishop of Ravenna, agreed with his superior, saying that "Mass is the presence of Christ and the music adds so much more when the harmony allows the mind to transcend the concrete to the divine."

But Cardinal Carlo Furno, grand master of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, was quoted in the Telegraph as saying it was "better to have guitars on the altar and rock and roll Masses than empty churches," adding that the use of modern music was a "sign of the vitality of the faith." The Italian newspaper La Stampa compared Benedict to his predecessor Pius X, who in 1903 deplored the newfangled sacred music of the Baroque and Classical eras and enforced the use of standardized Gregorian chants.

Nicholas Kenyon, controller of the BBC Promenade Concerts, remarked in the Telegraph of June 29 that "This is like David Lammy, just because he happens to be culture minister, criticising anything he does not personally like on the radio and insisting on a diet of his own favourites. [...] Who is to say that different generations cannot worship to the music of Palestrina or pop, Josquin or flamenco? We should encourage all who want to worship to do so in the style closest to their hearts."

Kenyon did go on to observe that, in the '60s and '70s, "the Catholic Church, in a desperate moment of realising that it was several centuries out of date, embarked on liturgical and musical reform with all the enthusiasm of a French revolutionary, censuring choirmasters, organists, and singers with a will, revoking all sense of value in the musical heritage of previous generations." He pointed out the critical and popular success of such contemporary composers as Arvo Pärt, Henryk Górecki and John Tavener, whose music seeks to express traditional Christian spirituality in a modern classical idiom. And, of course, he suggested that His Holiness might want to pay a visit to a Prom.

C
crsschk Aug 7, 2006

("Pope demands end to crappy church music")

:-P

I'm sorry, but that is just to hilarious not to comment on.

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

I'm sorry, but that is just to hilarious not to comment on.

My thoughts were that how sad it is that the church has allowed all the worlds music in and is even not shamed of it, Nothing is sacred anymore, from trash christian metal to rap music worship, the idea of having sacred hymns or other songs with its own unique style just for the saints of God to sing seems weird in our times that we are living. How sad it is that the roman church with all its idolatorious behaviours can't tolerate the maligning of its "religious" music.

W
WorldView Aug 7, 2006

"Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem"

Never heard of that.

C
crsschk Aug 7, 2006

Nothing is sacred anymore

True. The earlier comment stuck me funny ... too true to life perhaps...

For all it's problems and not as a condensation, the Protestant Church could learn at least the sense of reverence that they hold.

J
JoeA Aug 7, 2006

the Protestant Church could learn at least the sense of reverence that they hold.

As hard as it is to say, yeah we could learn from the pope on this one.

W
WorldView Aug 7, 2006

I think that worship services have lost their sacredness not because of the tempo of the music, but by the attitude in which it is approached.

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

I think that worship services have lost their sacredness not because of the tempo of the music, but by the attitude in which it is approached.

Agreed and that is a very important principle to take in mind but it does break down, because there are definetly some styles of music in the church that are not worshipful at all. And it may be fair to say also that alot of the music does not cater at all to get people's heart into a form of worship to start thinking on things above and setting affections on things above not things of the earth.

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

Pardon my ignorance, although I am slightly confused.

Sermonindex, when you talk about some styles of music that have popped up inside churches and branded as 'worship music,' what kind of music are you talking about?

For example, at my church we have a piano, drums, guitar, bass, trombone, trumpet and an organ. Would you find this acceptable?

Or are you more talking about things like rap or hardcore music being used in church?

H
hmmhmm Aug 7, 2006

i see it this way...when someone sings in a church..if you notice the singer and says ..wow how beutiful that song was!! thats wrong..it should be wow what great god she/he sings about.... if you notice the person singing the song and not the god they are singing about somethings wrong... and in older hymns the songs are about god..often now days its what god done for us...im so happy now... me is that me feel this me is that..and so on.... in older hymn its more he is great he is lord he is good...not me me me... thats the big difference i see in todays worship music...it isent for god..its for us and for us to feel cosy in church and get a feeling that feels good..... instead of just singing to his glory.... only for him...

O
OverSeer Aug 7, 2006

In his book, [i]Return to Worship[/i], Ron Owens, has several chapters dealing with music in the church. In chapter or "letter" 27, entitled The Language and Power of Music, he says,

The fundamental question in determining whether something is right or wrong is not, "What are the consequences?" or, "Does it fit into the way people think?" or even, "Will the result be favorable or unfavorable?" The fundamental question must be, "Does it adhere to the standards of God as set forth in His Word?"

Our worship is not for the purpose of pleasing people - it is for pleasing God. Worship that is man-centered is untrue to the very nature of the God we say we've come to worship.

But this reversal of true worship has not only infiltrated worship music - it has also infiltrated much of today's modern preaching.

Psalm 80:3 - "Turn us again, O God, and cause they face to shine; and we shall be saved."

Grace and peace
Olan

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

Not trying to be inflammatory here... but... who cares what the Pope has to say about anything?

Krispy

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

Krispy said:

Not trying to be inflammatory here... but... who cares what the Pope has to say about anything?
Well, here's why I care. The Pope is a very influential world figure, and the Vatican, being a sovreign state has a seat at the UN.

Those two facts would matter less, if it were not that this particular Pope, with his conservatism, sounds just like an evangalical on many issues.

To those who don't know the difference, they perceive a unification of thinking between Catholic and Protestant, and then they make the incorrect deduction that it doesn't make any difference to their eternal welfare, if they remain Catholic - or, if they [i]become[/i] Catholic.

This supreme deception is the main reason I am concerned every time I hear the Pope echoing truth, whether it is clearly biblical, or merely popular (and not wrong for either of those categories).

Over here (UK), the old Labour Party was turned into 'New Labour' by Tony Blair who leapt at the opportunity to stand for leadership when the previous leader died suddenly, not as an old man, either, leaving the perceived natural successor to recover from the shock of both events.

One of the strongest accusations which has been levelled at New Labour, is that it won the Conservative vote by stealing their policies. I see the same 'picture' in the Pope having an opinion about popular music in church, just at the same time as the American church is waking up to the emptiness of some of what its leaders have been teaching it to sing. I'd be surprised if this is a co-incidence, but hey! Surprise me.... ;-)

R
Rahman Aug 7, 2006


Whoa! ... Looks like many of us really missed the point as to why Holy Spirit moved brother SermonIndex to post this thread (as with many of the other threads He moves bro Greg to post) ...

Come on saints any of us who know the words of the old hymns know that the majority of this newer so called Christian music don't hold a candle to the devotion contained to God, His will, and way like the old standards ...

There once was a time when Christians could say of some secular/worldly music that it sounded like Christian or Gospel music - Now we find ourselves saying that Christian/Gospel music sounds like secular/worldly music ... My being American/African, modern Am/Af gospel music is a subject that i believe our Lord used me to address for much of our new Gospel music is just downright (designed for worldly commercial crossover) deplorable;

A Message to Black America and the Black Church
Gangsta Rap – God’s Final Straw
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2826&forum=35&9

To be blatantly honest i've come to really believe that our advesary has pretty much blinded us to any point(s) of His pleading us our need to repent of, to turn around and move away from ... It seems that
instead of taking His point(s) seriously that we'd much rather make fun of an alternate point, or find some other escape rather than just bear the brunt of His point(s) and stop our foolishness ... My prayer life has much increased in alarm to the degree of spiritual deafness and blindness that so many of us display whenever He touches on how much wordliness we carry ... He's trying to get His point(s) across to us, and we're blind and deaf to them ... Jesus help us!

Lord Jesus please stop our adversary's blinding uf us ... It seems anything other than just plain taking Your point(s) and repenting of them ... For Your sake, for the sake of we Your Body, and especially for the sake of a lost and dying world who view us as a joke rather than Your shining city on a hill ... To Your glory: MAKE US ALL GET YOUR POINT(S)! ... Amen

J
JoeA Aug 7, 2006

Not trying to be inflammatory here... but... who cares what the Pope has to say about anything?

If the pope is concerned about worldly music in the Catholic church, then shouldn't Protestants definately be concerned? On any given day i'll state why i think the Catholic church is not Christian, but if the pope is worried about worldliness, that means we should be waking up too. I just wish some Protestant leaders would rise up and say the same.

And hmmhmm, i totally agree with what you said.

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

I didnt say one way or the other about music, or worldiness in the church. Those have been serious issues facing Bible believing churches for a long time... I'm just wondering why when the Pope addresses it we're all of a sudden going to pay attention. Nothing in this world could cause me to care any less what the Pope has to say about any topic.

I'm concerned about worldiness in the church as anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time knows.

So the Pope is concerned about worldliness... big deal. So are the nutty Islamic extremeists about their religion. So are the Mormons. So are the JW's.

I'm really not trying to cause any contention here. Just surprised that many of us here have been sounding the trumpet for a long time about compromise and worldliness among God's people. It's a bit disconcerting when [b]we[/b] get dismissed and sometimes chastised by other Christians on this forum for speaking out against it... but when the leader of the world's largest false religion brings it up people have more respect for him than they do their fellow believers.

Krispy

Krispy

R
roadsign Aug 7, 2006

Is anybody not concerned that a mere man on the other side of the pond should have such a degree of control over the local church?!!!

For several years my sister, a musician had been using the Catholic Church in her community to host classical chamber concerts. It is an ideal sanctuary for such events. But then the church received orders from above that this would not be allowed anymore – as the building was to be used only for “worship”. Of course the church board did not like that order, as they had enjoyed a good community relationship with my sister and others. However, they felt obligated to obey the mandate.

This is preposterous! - not only that the Pope takes that degree of control over the local churches, but also that the local churches keeps on submitting – even against their will.

This makes me angry, as it grieves our Lord so much. It’s like the heirarchy refusing to let their children ever grow up, and the lowerarchy refusing to grow up. (and risk persecution and excommunication)
Diane

R
Rahman Aug 7, 2006


Hmmmm ... maybe i'm not getting the point here ... The beginning of bro Greg's post says;

"In what may be the most visible — or audible — instance of the present-day Catholic hierarchy's retreat from the reforms of the 1960s and '70s, Pope Benedict XVI has called for an end to popular music in churches, suggesting that traditional chant and sacred polyphony are the suitable accompaniment to worship."

See i'm thinking the point of the thread is about the Catholic Church's "repentance", "turn around", from attempting to be relevant to our modern world by allowing this popular influenced music in the first place, and not whether the RCC or the pope is right in anything else, or that it was posted as a personal affront, or in superceedance to anything that any of us have already been trumpeting against in the Body ... i'm thinking that the main point of the thread being posted is that if the pope/RC can see where it was a mistake to "compromise" in music, then why can't we as the Body of Christ see where we've made similar compromise ...

i know bro Greg to be one of few words, unlike many of us who will beat our point(s) to exhaustion (yep i'm guilty), but to me bro Greg's point(s) often seem to be toward pointing to the Body's errors, the need for the Body's serious repentance from our errors, and much needed REVIVAL toward the Body getting on with the King's business in replacement of our own ...

Ya know as of late i've gotten real butterflies in my gut for we the Body of Christ especially here in America ... Not that the gates of hell will prevail against us, but a real sense of dread of just what it's gonna take for our Lord to shake us out of our stupor to our acknowledging His point(s) ... :-(

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

you're speaking wisdom here:

Those two facts would matter less, if it were not that this particular Pope, with his conservatism, sounds just like an evangalical on many issues.

and

To those who don't know the difference, they perceive a unification of thinking between Catholic and Protestant


that's good stuff....you know, when I see posters on this forum "speaking out against" the "world's greatest false religion", it just makes me grieve, because God gave us this ministry of reconciliation. That said, am I going to engage in popery or the idolatrous practices of the roman church?

no.

But one of my employees, is a God fearing born again follower of Jesus, and we were sitting around talking about the Word, this and that, and I ask him where he goes to church, and he tells me, "Saint so and so catholic church".

Now what happens if I "speak out" and tell him he's in a "false religion"? I could stumble a brother, lose a brother.

He must of sensed my heart, because he told me, he's a Christian catholic, he loves Jesus, maybe the Lord has him in this particular parish to be a witness. Only God knows.

Good words sister, your brother bartle

sermonindex Aug 7, 2006

Now what happens if I "speak out" and tell him he's in a "false religion"? I could stumble a brother, lose a brother.

He must of sensed my heart, because he told me, he's a Christian catholic, he loves Jesus, maybe the Lord has him in this particular parish to be a witness. Only God knows

Yes, bartle, I have a number of similar experiences. I know a number of Catholics who worship God with an amazing amount of love and devotion.

The balance for me is difficult. I will not compromise God's truth, but standing up against such a great deception with the same boldness as bro Ravenhill and others is much more difficult when these people are your friends whom who know love God.

So, how does it make sense? Do these Christian Catholics not completely understand the implications of their doctrine? Do they unknowingly in their hearts ascribe solely to God's grace for their salvation?

Sorry if I am getting off topic. I am the new guy on the block, so that is my excuse ;-).

-K DAY

This discussion is locked.

Archived
1 of 35 posts