A Critical Spirit

It's noticeable that there's a good number who post threads on this website who are very loose in calling people out, rebuking ministries, and putting a judgment call on men or women who may very well have a calling of God on their life. Often the response to this kind of statement is that we are called to "test the spirits" and to "contend for the faith" as well as pointing to Scriptures where Jesus came against the Pharisees or where Paul named specific people in the epistles whose message spread like cancer. I agree that we are to discern, to rightly divide, to come against all hypocrisy and phoniness in the house of God.

But I also believe that we can be just as guilty. As a people who stand for truth, we just may have the spirit of a Pharisee. Pharisees are the ones who notice a fly in the ointment and bring an immediate condemnation on the person. They put people on such high standards as though they themselves have never made a radical statement or done anything wrong themselves. We have to be very careful in our judging. While we are called to test spirits and to judge ministries carefully, the spirit by which WE do it is just as important.

I heard a man say once "Jesus came against the Pharisees, but also took nails for them." There is a love that has to back up our tongue otherwise we are just as guilty as the one we are coming against.

Let us be careful lest we also fall.

The Lord continally bless you Mattie,
These verses came to my mind while reading your post, and I think that they may bear witness to what you are speaking about:
In my NIV translation, the topical heading reads,"Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman", the passage being Luke 7:36-50. I do however like how the KJV translates this passage, especially Luke 7:47 which reads, "Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little". Oh what insight this gives into the riches of Christ Jesus, and how beautiful are the feet of those who bring Good News.
"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"-Matt 9:13
I have also found this short commentary to contain Godly wisdom as well:
[url=http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm]http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm[/url]"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves"-Mt 10:16
The Lord continues to bless His children in these perilous times...Praise God who is always Faithful!!!
richie

Hi Mattie...

There is definitely a danger from closing our eyes and ears to anything and everything that seems "different" to our own practices or beliefs. Often, we can become so "comfortable" with our spiritual walks that we neglect to realize that there may be more to Christianity than what we have been taught.

However, there seems to be a much greater danger in many churches of failing to "test everything." We truly need to be vigilant in these days. There is so much obvious false doctrine being taught from the pulpits -- it is disheartening to see believers accept the chaff without much thought.

Of course, I am not talking about disputable doctrines or beliefs. One believer might be completely "certain" of an issue that might be well established in the heart of another believer. This doesn't make either believer a "heretic." I believe that we should be entitled to make up our own minds on matters that are not established with complete certainty from the Word of God. There have been arguments about everything from music, salvation (eternal security or not), a pre-trib or post-trib "rapture," etc... I believe that we should study the Scriptures diligently to understand the truth -- rather than simply by accepting what is taught by other men. Yes, God does call teachers -- but it is a disservice to such individuals to simply believe every word they teach. We are truly in need of Bereans -- men and women that would even question the validity of the teaching of the Apostle Paul.

I attended a large Church as an undergrad student. I watched how a wonderful local Church quickly morphed from a Christ-centric Church into just another place that embraced "new ideas" in the charismatic movement. They went preaching repentence to prosperity. It eventually began embracing "every wind of doctrine" or fad that made its way around charismatic churches. They eventually began embracing "holy laughter," gold dust, "gold fillings," leg-stretching preachers, "holy haze," etc...

Regardless of whether or not you agreed with each passing fad, believers were forbidden to voice any sort of opinion or disagreement. To do so, according to the Pastor, was a sign of dissension, rebellion, a lack of faith, or a critical spirit. In fact, there was no room for disagreement at all. As time went on, many guest speakers visited, each bringing strange new teachings, wild testimonies or claims of supernatural power. Ironically, many of their messages contradicted one another. But still, any sort of questioning of the teachings became quietly forbidden.

The Church today is in desperate need of men, women, boys and girls that would be secure enough in their faith to test everything that they see, hear or read. Is this critical? Or is this "rightly dividing the word of truth." To say such an attitude is critical could be equal to forcing people to believe what they are told. It is vital that believers test everything before taking a firm stand. Right now, you can turn on a christian TV or radio station and find a dozen preachers teaching a dozen different doctrines. There are churches that are filled with men sharing wild, "supernatural" testimonies that simply do not line up with God's Word. There are Christian comedians that claim to have visited Heaven, people claiming to have spent time in Hell, many tales of demonic activity, etc... I believe that it would be wrong to [u]not[/u] warn young believers about the flood of false doctrines being taught today.

I do understand what you are trying to say. We should make certain that all of our "testing" is done out of a pure heart that is yearning for the truth in perfect love. We should never shun or shut out those with whom we disagree. Instead, we should gently reprove those that are in error. And of course, we should always pray for those that we feel are teaching error. Christ saved his harshest rebukes -- not simply to the Pharisees -- but to the hypocrites within the Pharisees.

:-)

It’s tricky isn’t it, knowing the difference between being critical and being discerning. We sure need to get better at discerning, as our tendency is to be overly trusting – in the sense that we want to follow after man. These days our lofty illusions about fellow “Christians” are being shattering. Alas, even our favorite heroes have serious blind spots. I think we are waking up and getting the glitter out of our eyes – thankfully, really….. After all, you can’t have revival with stardust in your eyes.

I’m afraid, that no matter how tidy we try to be, this waking-up process tends to be messy, as is mixed with buried pride, anger, and disappointment, self-righeousness, and even shock. It looks like a “critical spirit” at times, but it may very well really be all part of the God’s wake-up call. We cannot afford to stay “nice” and pretend all is nice like we did in the past. God is not pleased with that false righteousness.

I’d be reluctant to paint a broad stroke “critical spirit”. Also it can be confusing, as it’s hard to tell who are the “offenders”. Now how does one not get critical about all the ones who seem critical? That’s tricky. Maybe it helps to view each other as works in progress – at different stages. God brings conviction in his time.

.. and the mods do a pretty careful job of policing.

Diane

There's a verse in Ezekiel I think that says if any man considers himself a prophet, let him stand in the gap and/or make intercession. have you shed a tear for any of the things you come against? that is my question. Jesus rebuked Pharisees but also wept for Jerusalem. The prophets had strong, strong words but also shed many tears in secret for the people they preached against.

While we must stand for truth and come against deception, we must do it in context with the great commandments - to love Christ with ALL and to love our neighbor as ourself. Jesus followed this and we're to follow this.

Many are quick to judge ministries (and they might even be right in what they SAY) yet there is an arrogance and a pride behind what they are saying. Careful...

Also remembering the words of Jesus regarding the Pharisees after the disciples "LET THEM ALONE. the blind leading the blind will both fall into a ditch" Let them do what they're doing while we focus on what matters - seeking and saving that which is lost, advancing the kingdom of God, lifting the name of Jesus.

Omly, You said I'm judging you as though I was talking directly about you, yet I'm talking about a type of people.

Didn't Jesus say to the Pharisees they did things without "love" and focusing on the weightier matters. Didn't Paul judge in Corinthians 13 based on love, saying we can have the tongues of men and angels yet without love it's nothing. It's biblical.

Ormly, I can't judge YOUR heart but I can judge what the Word judges. I've picked up in certain statements that people have made in regards to coming against ministries that lack any compassion. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If all the person is doing is coming against, coming against, coming against - that speaks alot about the person. There is a big difference between coming against ministries yet doing it with the broken heart of God, and another thing to come against ministries because of a desire to seem spiritual and the "prophet of the hour". Jeremiah had alot to say about the idolatry in the house of Israel but he also had much to say about the new covenant. Some ministries well known throughout the states dedicate their entire ministry to coming against others. Jesus didn't live that way. That wasn't his drive and his focus. You understand what I'm saying?

But I never said we shouldn't come against or shouldn't test - so you are taking my words out of context. I said we must know the importance of our own hearts balanced with coming against anything ungodly. You are looking at what i'm saying through the wrong lenses. It may be that you are extreme in coming against things to the point that when a statement is made about the heart behind it all - immediately you may think I'm an "ice-cream preacher" who only gives people what they want to hear. This is not the case. The cross will always be an offense and will be a stumbling block. However, the cross is an inward working as well. The cross will offend attitudes and intents of the heart just as much as the wrong messages

While only God can know the heart of man, Jesus has given us glimpses into what is known in the heart of a man. Didn't Peter tell Ananias "Why has Satan filled your heart..." That's a radical statement. Also Peter tells Simon the Sorcerer "I can see you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity" Another statement regarding the heart of a man. Jesus said "by the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" While your statement is true that only God knows the heart, I believe with the Holy Spirit and the fruit of a man's words and doings, we can understand sometimes a deeper and underlying issue behind it all.

Any ministry that presents itself contrary to Scriptures must be judged, condemned, and refuted.
Critically or gently.

I have noticed often that only some 'Christians' (mainly the professional or the 'ordained')are allowed to judge without being labeled as 'critical'. 'Lay' believers are often marked as proud or critical whenever they attempt to voice their views or defend biblical truth.

From where I stand, this 'I'm okay and you're okay' "gospel" has evolved into something like "I'm okay and you are okay as long as you agree with me". Furthermore, if I say something disagreeable about your ministry, I'm being discerning, but if you say something that does not agree with my ministry or my 'church', you are being critical !!
Sound familiar? I'm sure that all the prophets and apostles were seen as critical spirited by the religious and political leaders in their time.

I think that we must speak out against words or deeds that are contrary to the Scripture, only to do so with prayers and in the Spirit, and with Biblical Truth.

mamaluk

It’s tricky isn’t it, knowing the difference between being critical and being discerning. We sure need to get better at discerning, as our tendency is to be overly trusting – in the sense that we want to follow after man. These days our lofty illusions about fellow “Christians” are being shattering. Alas, even our favorite heroes have serious blind spots. I think we are waking up and getting the glitter out of our eyes – thankfully, really….. After all, you can’t have revival with stardust in your eyes.

I’m afraid, that no matter how tidy we try to be, this waking-up process tends to be messy, as is mixed with buried pride, anger, and disappointment, self-righeousness, and even shock. It looks like a “critical spirit” at times, but it may very well really be all part of the God’s wake-up call. We cannot afford to stay “nice” and pretend all is nice like we did in the past. God is not pleased with that false righteousness.

I’d be reluctant to paint a broad stroke “critical spirit”. Also it can be confusing, as it’s hard to tell who are the “offenders”. Now how does one not get critical about all the ones who seem critical? That’s tricky. Maybe it helps to view each other as works in progress – at different stages. God brings conviction in his time.

.. and the mods do a pretty careful job of policing.

Diane, found it difficult to excerpt this and thanks also to Chris not by way of exclusion of the others here.

It is [i]tricky[/i].

I think we are waking up and getting the glitter out of our eyes – thankfully, really….. After all, you can’t have revival with stardust in your eyes.

I couldn't agree more Diane and as you mentioned it is messy as well. We have tread over this ground fairly often enough in the past. For those who have tarried here awhile this is familiar, for those more recent not a surprise reaction and a fair amount of assumption to be expected.

Speaking briefly with Greg the other day made mention of how these more 'controversial' matters tend to come in waves ('seasons' I think it was couched). It is very interesting ... [i]why[/i] it is so. Found it difficult even this morning how to address these things, the David Hogan matter being peculiarly up in the forefront of thoughts and prayers. The outcome is a large set of questions, but to reiterate, I do think it is good to get these things out into the open and question it from a variety of standpoint...

What keeps coming back is this matter of opposing 'camps' and how they are defended. The unwillingness sometimes to back down or to consider\\reconsider especially if a matter is to really be looked at truthfully a great deal of it is subject to opinion, is [i]opinion[/i], good, bad, indifferent...

It does ultimately break down into a new challenge and level of honesty ... We get offended and the reaction is [i]Defend![/i]

Now how does one not get critical about all the ones who seem critical?

It looks like a “critical spirit” at times

To say that it is not at times evident would be as false as saying that it is always a misunderstanding. Both happen.

What to measure by? Before that, this matter is front and center;

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:12,13

And...

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [b]Who then is Paul[/b], and [b]who is Apollos[/b], but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither [b]is he[/b] that planteth [b]any thing[/b], neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth [b]are one[/b]: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For [b]we are labourers [u]together[/u] with God[/b]: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:3-9

Looking at this afresh, perhaps the answer I am attempting to forward is expressed better than I could state it.

What I did want to say is; What does the Lord say about all this? Have we not yet recognized a very telling aspect? That the Lord is greatly silent? As if He would leave us to sort it all out amongst ourselves? A frightening prospect no?

Considering the amount of exposure inwardly that we must come to grips with, what do the outward manifestations tell us about our .... selves? First, that there is so much of a consideration for those same selves up against a more self-effacing proscription that Paul uttered, [i]"Who then is Paul"?[/i] In essence 'nobody', or the way he put it [i]anything[/i], "of no consequence" seems to be the consideration.

We get off into a pro\\con - Liberal\\conservative -either\\or - miracles\\holiness - both\\and - ecumenicism\\compromise - and I know it is redundant that I am want to keep bringing this forward ... but is it not [i]SELF[/i]? And [i]self opinion[/i] that causes us to overlook things that need to be addressed (because we have something, someone to defend) or that we go another route of being 'critical' and [i]offensive[/i] because we have forgotten just how offensive we are to the Lord. The [i]best[/i] of us [u]still[/u], are an offense to the Lord when we think that we have outgrown that possibility. It's pride, pure and simple ...

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Far too often I think we give ourselves an 'out' on this without truly pausing and pondering on it. The sense is, "Of course, but .... let me rush on to my point, my opinion".

How do we get the real, demanding grip of this truth;

[i]From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.[/i]
Jam 4:1-11

[i]And[/i], still deal with that which needs to be addressed? The 'critical spirit' seems to be contained within what James spoke of.

[i]yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.[/i]

Is it truly because we "Ask [u]not[/u]"? Prayer, lack of prayer or prayer that is asking "amiss"?
It seems so. I know that it is my downfall when it is neglected, rushed through ... because "I have an opinion!" :-?

I am not completely free from this matter of wanting to [i]defend[/i], it has the tendency to rise up even here because of a great love for the saints, because of the great wealth of [i]thought[/i] contained here ... I can get a little disturbed hearing newcomers (and we love and welcome all) making off the cuff statements about this "board" without any real penetration into what goes on here .. It is understood, but this is no mere "board", no mere "chit-chat", "chat room", pulpit for agendas and extravagances, anything goes ... prophet-eering, bullying, condescending, patronizing ... I digress. It can get grievous at times. But to go back to Diane's 'trickiness', it is so. It is often bloody to get cut to the quick but so necessary! It is to be exposed and challenged even as one is bringing forth challenging matters. [i]IF[/i] we might look at it that way. Really, there is no need of defending anything here, the messages and speakers can stand on their own merit, these are but mere men who we tend to gravitate towards because they gravitate us closer to the Lords thought and hence their "greatness" if we must put it that way.

The most telling part in my experience here is how infrequently really it is to hear, "I think I got this wrong" without the proverbial "But" attached as an addendum. It does happen, Praise God, but it is telling just how closely we can hold on to things to save face, shun humility, admit error, admit we may not have the whole picture, that we may be pretending much more more than we let on to. We form an opinion about a man and\\or his ministry from what information we gather and make [i]that[/i] the proscription of [i]fact[/i]. It is not 'fact' but assumption and can be as much presumption to come alongside as a 'supporter' under a guise of "Knowing" him personally as those who are labeled 'critical' with the same set of assumptions. That sounds confusing even to me...

Things that are said, that are written, taught, ought to be able to be addressed without this sense of being offended or defending and maybe the largest looming matter is to [i]have to have[/i] a final conclusion to everything, especially when it comes to mens (ladies as well) character...

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

We neither have to 'criticize' unduly nor compromise anything. The requirement is honesty. Not to go beyond, not to buttress one thing over another. Not to pretend and not to inflame. Test we ought and assume nothing that we do not in fact [i]know[/i]. Discuss it, wrestle with it, chew on it .... (Ponder, contemplate) and if the result is, as it often is, one of "I don't know", leave it at that, why go beyond it? Is there not a whole vast reservoir of this in each of us? Things still held in abeyance? The things of the Lord that are still yet undeveloped and full of wonder, those that we know are just out of reach, those that need a lot of work, the war of the natural and the spiritual that we struggle with, the things we know that we don't know, the things which we know we will never know [i]this side of heaven[/i]. Ever wondered about that? Could not a large part of that be an assumption? We may not know some matters even [i]then[/i]. Does that trouble us? I certainly hope not. What is our faith but in great part a matter of trusting that which is beyond us and reserved to God alone. The future is heavily guarded despite our 'prophets' often forward crystal-ball gazing ... (Not a slight...). And I am happy for it by and large. We are ultimately helpless but not without the greatest and only Help their is in life. We are cast upon the Lord, we are indeed [i]children[/i] and yet how hard it is to accept that sometimes, being so self-sufficient, [i]apart from Me you can do nothing[/i]. Why, we can do plenty! And we do. What the worth of it is though in the end is truly [i]nothing[/i]. What lasts? What will endure ... [i]forever[/i]? How to keep before us this ultimate matter of things eternal ...

Could wish for a nice tidy end to this rambling ...

The Lord knows [i]all these things[/i].
The Lord sees.
Better than we!

We are not combatant's against each other.

[i]"we are labourers [u]together[/u] with God[/i]"

Are we? Is this our motivation and compelling? Or are we more controversial over controversy? We love it! Some of us ... Will we admit it?

We [u]must[/u] truly die to ourselves! It is the trouble with us. We still don't want to hear it, we would rather [i]defend[/i] it! Mere creeatures! How ridiculous we can be, how seriously we take [i]ourselves[/i]!

Give your - self - away! The Lord knew what He meant when He said;

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

It's a truth! Wonderful, paradoxical truth. You do find it! As it was meant to be, not as we attempt to work it out on our own. There is something tremendous about falling out into trust in the Lord, it's 'dangerous' and a scandal to the natural man, it chaff's at it, recoils from it, [i]that[/i] is a great part that must just die.

Human effort! The sheer folly for any spiritual attainment. It can't be recycled, it must be destroyed and re-created, "born again" of a different 'substance' if that is not to crass.

How did I end up here? On this tangent? Well, just a bit more since I am 'boasting' somewhat foolishly.

Miracles.
Signs and wonders.
Power.

[i]Whose[/i] is it?
Does it still happen?
Should we not examine and test ... 'criticize' it?

Why most certainly!

Accept them without question? Without "proof"?
How do we prove them anyway?
With evidence. Tricky again. Either it is seen first hand or something other than sight must make an application. Character is an evidence. Humility is an evidence.

Boasting, parading, drawing attention to ones self is ... suspect, no?

What about ... [i]effect[/i]?
What is the ... [i]point[/i]?

Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

That is not the be all, end all of the matter.
But what are these things ... for?
Cold shivers?
Entertainment?

What is the point of being for instance "slain in the spirit"? Chris alluded to this in his experience with Mr. Hogan and I too had a similar 'experience' with Benny Hinn and Rex Humbard (My personal hand to head ... silliness). And what was the 'effect' and 'outcome'?

Nothing.

And I was highly expecting, especially after so much manipulation ... I played along with it in my ignorance and frankly, disappointment. Perhaps it was productive after all, it began reinforcing the troubling aspect that had already begun, "[i]this is nonsense[/i]".

We are children in the right regard but we ought not be gullible and without studying and studying ourselves in light of that study.

People being raised from the dead?
Possible?
Actual?
Doubtful?

This is a [i]TALL[/i] order.
And we are to accept it without question?

Take note in scripture, was there disputing that it actually [i]happened[/i]? Even amongst the religious leaders? Was it not [i]By what power[/i]? And ...

[i]Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.[/i] Joh 11:47,48

More so, [i]who[/i] did the re-telling of these things? The healing's and miracles. Ever notice that? (The Lord having a bit of a different authority and purpose notwithstanding). Was it the disciples speaking of "And I, Paul laid handkerchiefs ..." Or "I passed by and my shadow ..." No. There was a purposeful disassociation;

[i]The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them. [/i] Act 14:9-18

How different than the often open boasting of these things in our day? That is if they are even believable. It's a re-direct and a distraction. Again, for what purpose?

"To the Lord"?
"For the Lords glory"?
"It's all the Lord's doing" ...

Is it? Or is it an afterthought, a safeguard, ([i]"Need to make sure I give God the glory on this or they won't believe me") That sounds harsh and critical but it often reeks of this.

If the Lord is going to get the glory for anything that [i]we[/i] do (difficult word there) we are going to have to get well out of the way and well before that even in our thoughts. I most certainly believe and recognize the miraculous both in the more outward 'show' but profoundly in the inward ... By God, I am a walking miracle! That is no boast, it is a incredible puzzlement that I will never fully comprehend. IF the Lord decided to heal someone through this peculiar man that I am, I can guarantee you I would be positively frightened out of my wits and would run as fast as I could to find some place to hide and weep that God could stoop to such a level as to do something that tremendous. That's my sense anyway.

There is just as much a portion that some matters ought to be just a matter of course when God is present, a peaceful, non-surprise aspect. For instance in Revival, having never been in one it would still seem a normal course for both awesome, reverential fear, weeping in repentance ... How else could one react having been exposed in such a fashion? Other than the hardest of hearts... Times of refreshing, mercy and forgiveness ... God love poured out. This all seems rather normative or at least it ought to be.

I just do not comprehend this flippancy of such vast proportions though in matters of Gods workings, whatever they might be. It is to bring the Holy down to the level of profane. To practically make sport of it and an entertainment value. No particular reason, just so that people are or "feel blessed". It seems to defy so much of what we do know of the Lords ways and character.

Sorry for the length.

The Word must be rightly divided. I enjoy discussions like these because the body of Christ is able to open up passages and bring context with context. The key issue is remembering the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation testify of Jesus Christ. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Christ is all in all, and is the standard, the example, the perfect One that we all look to.

One thing to remember, He did nothing without the Father. He didn't even speak without the Father's approval. Jesus didn't publicly preach till He was 30 years old. John the Baptist didn't preach till He was 30. Ezekiel and other prophets. These men of God went through God's dealings, wilderness dealings, and there was a preparation of that vessel in order to bring forth the Word they preached.

The real thing I'm addressing is are we fit vessels that have been dealt with by the hand of God, pure, sanctified, and filled with His flame to bring forth such a message we may post? Has that Word we're preaching become flesh in us? Yes Jeremiah was to uproot and to tear down, but Jeremiah bore that very word. The word was a fire shut up in his bones. In his human weakness he even became weary, and wanted to give in because of such a word to speak. Look at Ezekiel who had to lie in dung for a long period of time. Look at Hosea who had to marry a prostitute that would then leave him. God put these men through difficult dealings before they were to preach that word. He wanted it to be life and reality to them.

{quote} Mattie

It's noticeable that there's a good number who post threads on this website who are very loose in calling people out, rebuking ministries, and putting a judgment call on men or women who may very well have a calling of God on their life.

This has bothered me for quite some time. I have been guilty of this myself in the past and even a few times on this forum, at least to some degree. Also, just because I don’t agree with someone and they may be very wrong on some idea does not mean that they don’t have the call of God on them. I need to be careful of not hurting that persons walk even if they are wrong.
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{quote} Mattie

Many are quick to judge ministries (and they might even be right in what they SAY) yet there is an arrogance and a pride behind what they are saying. Careful...

So true and so easy to do! Ministries who spend their time running down every other ministry that don’t agree with all their ideas are in my opinion fleshly.
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{quotes} Mattie

.....we can have the tongues of men and angels yet without love it's nothing.

There is a big difference between coming against ministries yet doing it with the broken heart of God.
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Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor.

Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbor: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him.

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Pro 9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
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Pro 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

Pro 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

Pro 26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

Pro 26:23 Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross.

Pro 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;

Pro 26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.

Pro 26:26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be showed before the whole congregation.

Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.

1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
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There has to be a balance in what we say. Why do we say what we say? Our motive for saying what we say can easily be of the flesh instead of the spirit. Something can be said in pride that is true but only coming from flesh, while the person saying it thinks its from the Lord. Think about your own words at times past. Have you pointed the finger? I have at times.

....... If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

Isa 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday.
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Mike, I love those ramblings.