Satan and hell | SermonIndex

sermonindex Jan 21, 2004

I have seen on many posts references to Satan and hell and have questions about it and the positions of other posters. The Bible says hell will be eternal. My problem with this is that, if it is true, Satan will have his way forever, at least with those who remain fallen to the end. This doesn't seem just or in any way what a loving God would do; allowing His misguided created souls to be tormented forever and His fallen angel a place in eternity.My conception of hell is that when the earth and the kingdom on earth is restored, all things will be as if we were never fallen in the first place. Satan and hell would simply disappear and it would be as if they never existed. In the last instant, the fallen and Satan would understand (realize) that they have given up their existence, EVEN in the past! That they never existed at all. (And those saved would lose all memory of them and the fall.)They (the fallen) would indeed gnash their teeth at this. In this way, God could be merciful and the damned would be so eternally (in both directions of time.)Jake

sermonindex Jan 21, 2004

Hi Jake,This is a good topic, but I really don't see how you have gotten to these conclusions through the Scriptures. You have posted this in scriptural debates so please post also Scriptures that you believe fit in with your belief. I will God-willing participate in this thread and show clear and plain scriptures to support my view. I am glad this thread has started.

sermonindex Jan 21, 2004

Wrtbooks:There are plenty of scriptural references to hell being eternal. There are also many that tell us about a just and loving God. There seems to be a dissonance between these points in scripture. I don't have any particular points in scripture that support what I wrote; nevertheless, in the scenario I posed hell is in a real sense eternal, but it is an eternal nonexistence. Moreover, burning consumes things. I could not expect scriptures to convey something so subtle. I would appreciate the scriptural insights of others on this point.Jake

sermonindex Jan 21, 2004

There are plenty of scriptural references to hell being eternal. There are also many that tell us about a just and loving God. There seems to be a dissonance between these points in scripture.Yes the Scriptures do emphatically show that Hell is Eternal, not doubts about that.Here's the 15 occourences of the word 'hell' in the NIV bible:Matthew 5:22 - But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[ 5:22 An Aramaic term of contempt] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.Matthew 5:29 - If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.Matthew 5:30 - And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.Matthew 16:18 - And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[ 16:18 Or hell] will not overcome it.Matthew 18:9 - And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 23:15 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.Matthew 23:33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?Mark 9:43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.Mark 9:45 - And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[ 9:45 Some manuscripts hell, 46 where / " 'their worm does not die, / and the fire is not quenched.']Mark 9:47 - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,Luke 12:5 - But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.Luke 16:23 - In hell,[ 16:23 Greek Hades] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.James 3:6 - The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.2 Peter 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[ 2:4 Greek Tartarus] putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; -----------------I thought this would be a good starting point to bring to attention some of the Scriptures that talk about and refer to the place called: 'hell'.There seems to be a dissonance between these points in scripture.The only reason you think this is because you really haven't read enough about God's holiness and righteous requirements. Joshua 24:19 - Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD . He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.Psalm 24:3 - Who may ascend the hill of the LORD ? Who may stand in his holy place?Isaiah 43:15 - I am the LORD , your Holy One, Israel's Creator, your King."

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nobody Jan 21, 2004

Jake, Jake, Jake!I am not going to talk down to you, but I must word this strongly because the ideas you presented must be corrected firmly and immediately. These are issues that many bring up as they learn of salvation, but do not let them become strong doubts! If Christianity were as unreasonable as many make it out to be there wouldn't be such a great history of brilliant men in the faith."Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven" is the old saying that is based on your same misconception. You have learned that Satan reigns in hell by watching Loony Tunes, not by reading Scripture or the classics of the saints. Satan will not preside over or rule in hell. He will be a captive in at least as much eternal torment as the others there. Hell will not be his kingdom but his eternal defeat and punishment. I am sure that many there will know that he is a reason that they are there and scream curses at him for eternity. There will be no parties in hell, no rock-n-roll, no sex, not a single joy. One passage of Scripture leads us to believe that one of the worst parts of hell will be having strong desires and passions but never getting any satisfaction or relief. Imagine all your fleshly appetites at their peak at once and nothing to even take the edge off and multiply that by a million.Scripture teaches that in the end once we see the judgement and have the wisdom of heaven we will praise God's holiness for casting the unsaved into hell. We will not be mourning for them or crying out about injustice- we will be praising a God that is infinitely higher and above the millions of people He raised up from the dust of the earth.Scripture also seems to teach that there will be various levels of punishment in hell. Some will have it better than others.You must not think of God being responsible for damning people. He created us in perfection and it was through our sin that we fell away. In His grace and mercy He is saving a remnant! We should all go there but for His compassion and desire to have a love gift of a redeemed humanity to forever worship His Son. If one cannot imagine an eternity of worshipping a King as heavenly then that person had better do some serious rethinking about starting to follow Christ. It is better to never begin than to start and go back!Finally there is one attribute of God to remember above the rest. God is love, God is just, but Scripture calls Him Holy, Holy, Holy! That is the only time Scripture uses the third degree of repetition to emphasize an attribute of God. That is significant.

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InTheLight Jan 21, 2004

I don't have any particular points in scripture that support what I wrote;Then your views are nothing more than conjecture, the wisdom of man. I'll take the wisdom and truth of God over that any day, even if it is much more uncomfortable to swallow.I wish there was no hell, no eternal punishment; but to believe that would be a denial of the Word of God(see Greg's list of Scriptures) and I can't do that.To believe that God is too good to condemn anyone to eternal hell is what the Holy Spirit called - through the prophet Isaiah - a 'refuge of lies'(see chapter 28). God is merciful and compassionate beyond human comprehension but He is also perfectly holy, righteous and just. The rejection of His infinite and eternal love shown on the cross of Calvary demands infinite and eternal punishment.In Christ,Ron

sermonindex Jan 22, 2004

But let no obstinately wicked professors dare to apply any of the divine promises to themselves: "For it is not meet to take the children's meat and give it unto dogs:" No, to such the terrors of the Lord only belong. And as certainly as Christ will say to his true followers, "Come, ye blessed children of my Father, receive the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world;" so he will unalterably pronounce this dreadful sentence against all that die in their sins, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.-George WhitefieldSermon 26: "The Eternity of Hell-Torments"http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/sermons/WITF_026.HTMIt demands our highest gratitude, that we who have long ago deserved this misery are not yet plunged into it. While there are thousands who have been adjudged to this place of punishment, before they had continued so long in sin as many of us have done, what an instance is it of divine goodness, that we are not under this fiery vengeance! Have we not seen many sinners, on our right and left, cut off in their sins? And what but the tender mercy of God hath spared us week after week, month after month, and given us space for repentance? What shall we render unto the Lord for all his patience and longsuffering even to this day? How often have we incurred the sentence of condemnation by our repeated rebellion against God! And yet we are still alive in his presence, and are hearing the words of hope and salvation. O let us look back and shudder at the thoughts of that dreadful precipice, on the edge of which we have so long wandered! Let us fly for refuge to the hope that is set before us, and give a thousand thanks to the divine mercy, that we are not plunged into this perdition!-Issac WattsHe who is weary of God will soon make a hell for himself, even in this world.-Willam HowellsJohn Wesley of Hellhttp://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-073.stm

sermonindex Jan 23, 2004

Nobody said:"Finally there is one attribute of God to remember above the rest. God is love, God is just, but Scripture calls Him Holy, Holy, Holy!"Jesus told us to love our enemies. This is where I get the dissonance from. If Jesus (God's Son and the One who will judge us all) commands us to love those who hate us, how can He send anybody to an everlasting burning in Hell? This is contradictory.Jake

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Agent001 Jan 23, 2004

Jake,The New Testament teaching on hell is not as simplistic as you thought. Even references to hell are not that frequent (interestingly, both "heaven" and "hell" did not have too many direct references, in contrast to the evangelical lingo).The words "Hades" (in Greek) and "Sheol" (in Hebrew) are often translated hell. However, the biblical usage of these words seems to refer more of a temporary holding place for souls of the unbelievers before the Lord's second coming.The conventional idea of "hell" as a place of torment for those condemned to eternal perdition seems more in line with the "lake of fire" in the Revelation. That phrase did not appear too many times in the NT.Some might argue that the "outer darkness" (where the gnashing of teeth and weeping takes place) is yet to be distinguished from Hades and the lake of fire. Finally, regardless of terminology, the Scripture discuss even less about what it means to be in "eternal perdition."I know one thing for sure, hell is not a place I want to end up in.

sermonindex Jan 23, 2004

I know one thing for sure, hell is not a place I want to end up in.Agent001 thanks for your insight. I'm definately with you on this.

sermonindex Jan 23, 2004

I know one thing for sure, hell is not a place I want to end up in.I agree with you Jake! :-) quick question though, have you listened to the message:Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead

sermonindex Jan 23, 2004

InTheLight wrote: "I wish there was no hell, no eternal punishment; but to believe that would be a denial of the Word of God(see Greg's list of Scriptures) and I can't do that."I am not saying there isn't or will not be a hell for the fallen. Eternal nonexistence for one who thought they had a life would certainly be a kind of hell. I am considering that God is infinately merciful, and also that the Bible says all things will be restored (which would include our innocence! and that this couldn't happen if there was an eternal hellfire.)Jake

sermonindex Jan 23, 2004

Jake,These are basic princples of the New Testament. There is no life without Christ. (1 John 5:12). Where there is no life there is death. Also if you read through any book of the new testament and place the emphasis where the bible places the emphasis's then you cannot miss the fact that before we knew Christ we (gentiles) were: 'objects of wrath', 'under the control of the evil one', 'enemies of God!', etc..Don't just glaze over this scripture, READ it carefully, even read it 4 or 5 times. Pray that God will show you the truth in it.Ephesians 2:1-7 - for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 2:10 - but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.1 Corinthians 2:13-14 - This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

sermonindex Jan 23, 2004

Wrtbooks, See Agent001's post and read it carefully. I think it indicates that my conception of hell is not in conflict with Scriptures. (btw, Over the years I have indeed read the entire Bible, -- except for Revelations which I just cannot get through -- many times. I feel I have a good understanding of the BIG picture, which is the most important part to get.)Jake

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nobody Jan 23, 2004

Funny that you say you've read the whole Bible except for Revelation because the concept you're tripping over happens to be clearly stated near the end of Revelation in chapter 20.Satanic Rebellion Crushed (1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[4] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.Now many things in Revelation are tough to interpret and symbolic, etc, but I propose that this section couldn't be much clearer or contrued to mean anything other than what it clearly states. One might try to argue that only the beast, false prophet, and Satan are said to be there forever and then the people are cast in for an indefinite period. I believe that there will be no exiting because the story of Lazarus and the rich man talks about a chasm being fixed between heaven and hell that no one can cross. Also there is no mention of any permanent destruction of the people or any escape. Furthermore, I don't expect that eternity is much like our space-time universe in that I don't think there will be so-called time. We will exist in the states of heaven and hell for eternity. There will be no clock that says "Oh boy, time to let the damned out of the lake of fire!" I don't view eternity as a long time so much the absence of time.

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rookie Jan 23, 2004

Jake wrote:I am considering that God is infinitely merciful... There are many who want to believe that God is this, and that God is love. Many ask these same eternal questions. Many choose to believe that God's love for His creation far outweighs anything that might deserve God's wrath. I hear this often. I also heard an evangelist, Ray Comfort, preach to this thought. He spoke to a certain individual who professed the same belief. He quoted from Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Ray Comfort said in effect, when we choose to hold onto an image of God that does not conform to Scripture, we in effect create our own god. And thus break the first commandment. Ananias and Sapphira met God on His terms.In ChristJeff

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philologos Jan 24, 2004

In a conversation between R W Dale and Campbell Morgan, R W Dale told Campbell Morgan that he had known one man who, he felt, had perfect right to talk about Hell, and that man was D L Moody. He stated that the reason he so felt was that he never heard Moody refer to Hell without tears in his voice.Horation Bonar once told Murray McCheyne that he had preached on the text "and the wicked shall be turned into hell".. "and did you preach it with tears" asked McCheyne.C H Spurgeon ""If sinners be dammed, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

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Alexis Jan 24, 2004

If I could imagine hell as the worse state a man can be in, it would something like this...- To know the fullness of the love of God through Christ whom they have rejected.- To know what it is like to be in His presence, yet never being able to enter it.- To have a revelation of the greatness of their sin and wanting to repent yet unable to ever receive forgiveness."and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born." Zec 12:10

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philologos Jan 24, 2004

Hi AlexisI think you are on the right track. I believe in a real hell, but one of the most poignant comments I ever heard was an 18th century Christian who said "hell is truth seen too late"

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InTheLight Jan 24, 2004

I believe that the worst torment of hell will be remembering what it was like to stand before the Lord of all majesty and glory at the judgment seat, and then to be separated from Him for all eternity. In Christ,Ron