Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...

In light of current events i pray our Lord's leading on this question to open up some clarification ...

i keep hearing the Iranians/Persians (of Japheth's line via Madai) refer to Israel (Shems line) as the Zionist ... So i began to dig and came across this wonderful cross referenced site;

Zionism - Definition and Early History (written) -
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

i bless God for such info because it makes things plainer as to how (in the natural) things have come to where they are in the middle east, even tho in my day to day, and here on SI, most folks aren't interested in such info ... So i bless God for SI, and those of you who are, to the enabling of discussion ...

It seems that British support ...

British Support for Jewish Restoration -
http://www.mideastweb.org/britzion.htm

... towards the repatriation of Jews to a "homeland" was three pronged;

1 - Theologically - Because some branches of British Protestantism believed that the second coming of Christ would only come after the Jews were reestablished in their land.

2 - Antisemitically - Because establishment of a Jewish homeland would be a convenient way to rid Europe of "the Jewish problem".

3 - Imperialistically - Because a Jewish Palestine would be an excellent excuse for a British protectorate there, and might serve as a solution for the "Eastern Question." - (Tho i might add that Israel's importance to Britain in this way eventually ceased as a decree in 1944 by Pres. Roosevelt as to what part of the oil pie was theirs greatly swayed them towards alliance with Iran) ...

But #2 got me to wondering why there was even a sense of "a Jewish problem" in Europe and Russia in the first place ... It's pretty plain why the Arab muslims (descendants of Shem via Abraham/Ishmael) hate the Jews ... And i believe our Lord has made it plain to me the initial rift between the Hamitic (African) and Shemitic lines, but why between the Japhethic (European & Russian) toward the Shemitic? ...

In some research i'd done previously this scripture stood out to me in regards the Hamitic lines disdain to Shem;

Gen.9
[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

What i'm about to post are thoughts i have on this matter, but i'm open to our Lord's correction/furtherance of info from others ... i'm seeking further understanding here ...

It seems to me this hatred of Shem's line (Jews most pointedly - as His chosen people) by Ham's lines (Canaanites/Africans) started here in Gen. 9 with this curse of "servitude to Shem" leveled at Ham's son Canaan ... i also noticed that in Hebrew Shem's name means: name, and that HaShem means: The Name, which is a reference to God Himself ... From this i concluded that even way back then HaShem (the Name) has called out Shem (name) to Himself, and this seems pretty evident in that Noah refered to "the Lord God" only "of Shem" and not the other two ... This exclusivity (to me) seems the seed of beginning for "anti-Shemitism", or anti "the name [people] called out by the Name) ... It's like the sibling rivalry/jealousy generated in a family where the parent(s) show favoritism ...

In further study i found that Nimrod, Ham's grandson via Cush, was the first to be set up as a mighty man in the earth, in opposition to God, and was the willing instrument of satan in attempting Babel, all under the motivation of establishing a substitute name (Shem) for themselves apart from the Shem chosen by God ... It is my understanding that Babel was actually satans initial attempt, via man, to set up his alternate plan (religion and government) apart from God's intended plan coming thru Shem's line, and that he had a willing participant in Ham's line because of the hatred infested in them by Noah's curse ... It also seems to me that somehow the descendants of Ham (Africans today), having gotten off on the wrong foot spiritually way back then and becoming of use to satan, are still collectively suffering from it today, just as the descendants of Canaan are still suffering in Palestine ... It also seems to me that tho there still may be anti-Shemitism amongst descendants of Ham presently, the horrid state of welfare for Ham's lineage today leaves little energy from them for robust anti-Shemitsm but not so from Japhet's lineage, which leads me to this thread's title: Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...

Seems to me that Japheth's lineage should have no beef with the Jews at all for in Gen. 9 Noah leveled no curse at them, in fact he said, "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" ... History proves God has truly done so with the european, they not only spread out all over Europe and Russia but the western europeans (particularly the British) spread out all over the world in colonization ...

Don't stone me here, i'm just wondering out loud: WHY??? ...

1 - Does it have anything to do with tho Noah said that God would enlarge Japheth, he also said "Japheth shall dwell in the tents of Shem?" ...

2 - Does anyone know exactly what this "dwelling" means, i don't? ---

Does it mean that somehow Japheth's lineage even today, as prosperous as they are, could be reacting badly to some sense of spiritual dependancy and/or a similar Hamitic type more subconscious feeling of second class status to the Jew as God's chosen people? ...

Or could it mean that Japheth's enlargement would eventually become so all encompassing that it would include and lord over even Shem's possession, say as the once dominant position of European Imperialism there ...

-The First World War and European Imperialism in the Middle East -
Under - Fall 2002: Readings for Wed., Nov. 20, 2002, in HIS 3995-02:: Topics in European History: European Imperialism in the 19th-20th Centuries:
http://www11.homepage.villanova.edu/jeffrey.johnson/

... and ...American dominion over Arab oil lands and/or as America's protection over Israel today?

U.S. Intervention in the Middle East -
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm

3 - It can be argued that once european Protestants and Catholics viewed Jews as Christ killers and thus the hatred, but since Christianity of any denom is waning in western europe and much of Russia doesn't believe in Christ at all then what's the excuse now for increasing anti-Shemitism? ...

4 - Is it as simple as just a dislike for a Jewish closed society within their own, and a perception that Jews seem to prosper wherever they go? ...

5 - Is it because Israel has brought this hatred on themselves, or is God's allowing the devil to cause it, or is God orchestrating it toward Israel Himself? (On this note i love to review history past in reference to the Jew and the nations, and how both people interact ... How the Jew from God's bringing them forth on the earth have been at the center of world controversy, but were not adversly affected as long as they followed hard after God ... i also find it amazing that even in man's ability to acquire nuclear WMD worthy of fulfilling the Revelation's descriptions, they were brought about via the minds of so many brilliant Jews) ...

So WHY do you think from a natural (or super-natural) perspective, so many Europeans and Russians are still so anti-Shemitic? ...

Regarding this subject, i want to point out that first and formost i approach it as a; Christian - A follower of Jesus Christ who views everything else from this high
vantage point ... The fact that secondly/nationwise God placed me an American and thirdly/ethnically of Hamitic descent, will never over-ride, or even coincide
with who's/what's first with me - namely: God and His Kingdom ... Everything else takes a back seat!!! ...

To anyone led to this thread i want to make it plain that if you're here to comment out of a defence of your nationality, or ethnicity, due to some of the info/comments/history from some of the links posted, and not as a Christian FIRST!, then you're missing the point, and i pray Holy Spirit restrain you from turning this thread away from it's purpose ...

AGAIN! - The purpose of this thread is in discussion of: WHY? - Even now in the 21st century, after WWI and 2, after the Holocaust, after reinstatement of Israel as a state in 1948, after the solution of Europe's so called Jewish problem via said state, does Europe and Russia still hate the Jews? ... And as an aside WHY? - America, whose also had it's dark side of anti-Shemitism has emerged as probably the safest haven for Jews today, and the sole protectorate of the tiny nation itself? ... If these people, as even some Christians believe, are "has beens" in the plan of God then why are they still hated so? ...

i have to admit that as a gentile, one grafted into the vine as a Christian, i'm totally fascinated by our Jewish history, the centuries long awesome burden of their having to bear God's name, Law, and plan toward the birthing of Jesus Christ, and the hatred for them in the spirit realm for being God's chosen by satan and his horde, that via his nations and people he's expressed toward the Jew ... i've often wondered of God just what He had in mind in the allowing of the Holocaust, and in retrospect i can see where such a horrific event quickly moved history toward the re-establishing of the Jew to the promised land ... And so for about the last year i've felt led of our Lord to really pray for the peace of Israel ... Tho this seems like an exercise in futility, as with my constant praying for REVIVAL, i must do what i feel led of our Lord to do ... i've also asked Him to make me of some benefit to Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole - especially in the realm of being able to witness to them ... i live in close proximity to a large Jewish community, and i can tell you that most are not very fond of the name Jesus, but if you mention a "third holocaust" that gets some attention ... Anyhow i believe our Lord has me in the very start of learning about them in ways that will be beneficial to such a tough witness ...

The following is a Jewish website i've joined to hear first hand what they believe;

AISHA AUDIO
http://www.aishaudio.com/?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8

Hi Dorcas, thanks for engaging ...

Dorcas you wrote;
"Being British, I'm having trouble identifying the degree of antisemitism you imply, Rahman."

--- Praise God ... In the U.S. we keep getting reports of rising ant-semitism in Europe, so one of the reasons for this thread is in hopes of finding out first hand from saints who live in Europe what they see regarding anti-semitism to date ... i know that if i were a Jew, just based on history alone, i'd not be living anywhere in Europe ... One of the things i had noticed is that it seems America is far more supportive of Israel than the EU so that sent me on a quest as to why?

Here are some of the links i've read so far;

TIME MAGAZINE
Why Europe Sides Against the Jews
Why do so many Europeans reject America's view of the Middle East? -
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/printout/0,8816,232725,00.html
[color=FF0000](can't get link to work - so i'll post it)[/color]

Why does America tend to side with Israel and Europe with the Arabs? -
http://freelebanon.org/articles/a213.htm

Free Republic
The Demons of Europe -
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1051506/posts

Now your post has made me single out Britain in this research and this is what i've found:

Anti-semitism in the UK - last update 1998 -
http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive2/uk/uk.htm#Antisemitic

The New Antisemitism (in Britain) -
Last year, there were 375 anti-Jewish attacks in Britain—the second highest total since the figures were first collected and a 7 percent increase on 2002. Of course, this is nowhere near as bad as it is in other parts of Europe.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/mp.htm

In the latter article it stated "Anti-semitsm in Britain is nowhere near as bad as it is in other parts of Europe" ... That's good to hear, and stands for reason as the UK doesn't seem to be so much an ally of the EU as it is of the U.S. ---

Dorcas you wrote;
"Also, I'd point out that it is not as straightforward as blood lines. If you search for the % of Jews in the US, you'll find they are descended from discreet pool which maintained its genetic separation from other Europeans, through having embraced Judaism, rather than through being genetically Jewish (by any definition of physical Jewishness). But, this is complicated by the fact that Jews by blood descendancy would have been more likely to marry with others practising Judaism"

--- I'm not quite sure where you're going here, but it does seem to me that Jews have been pretty good at keeping marriage amongst themselves as of fellow physical/genetic ancestry ... Tho in America there's probably more Jewish/gentile marriages than anywhere else, but then part of Americas culture seems to be the freedom to go against the grain (ask the RCC) ... But it does seem to me that "lineage", particularly the one stemming from Abraham, was and still is important to God, and that to me seems to be the main reason why satan (thru nations and people) manifests his hatred toward the jew, and no collectively the nation of Israel ... Israel has a long history of God raising nations for and against Israel ---

Dorcas you wrote;
"I may not be correct in the following thought, but, just as I believe the cries of anti-semitism which accompanied Mel Gibson's film were politically orchestrated, I think it's very likely the same has happened in Europe where anti-semitism occurs."

--- i agree, tho to me "in the natural" such cries come across as "political" or even "religious" in the supernatural they are of the devil in the sense that he also uses blind Jewry to discount anything regarding Christ ... This whole issue about "anti-semitism" with many a Jew is almost inextricably linked to their own "anti-Christian" stance due to the atrocities committed against them in times past by over zealous Christians" ... So satan had/has a double edged sword here ... He deludes the gentile nations, some proclaiming Christ, to hate, persecute, and kill the Jew, then uses that hatred, particularly coming from nations claiming Christianity, to the Jews even further rejecting of Christ ... What a trickster the devil is, thank God for Jesus to the healing of such blindness, tho often even with saints it takes a couple of steps toward clear vision

As to the rest of your comment about the Igbos being called "the Jews of Africa" because of being slaughtered by muslims for their Christian faith, i can see the parallel but i'm soley interested in anti-semitsm and why it continues to be a front burner issue

Blessings in Jesus! ---

Monday, Apr. 22, 2002
Why Europe Sides Against the Jews
Why do so many Europeans reject America's view of the Middle East?
By MICHAEL ELLIOTT

As a teenager growing up in Britain, I remember saying prayers at our church for the safety of Israel during the 1967 Six-Day War. For my friends and me, Israel's great Defense Minister, the one-eyed Moshe Dayan, was an authentic hero. One night, I remember, the BBC aired a tribute to Dayan using as a sound track the Who's I Can See for Miles, which we thought was pretty cool. In the late '60s spending time on a kibbutz was a fashionable way for European teens to bridge the gap between school and university. As far as I could judge as a young man, widespread European sympathy for Israel — the sense that Israelis were the good guys in the Middle East — extended through the horrors of the Munich massacre in 1972 and the October War of 1973.

Yet now the streets of Europe are filled with rallies that support the Palestinians and condemn Israel. Listening to a radio broadcast on BBC World last week, I was struck by an anchor's air of incomprehension at a demonstration in Washington in support of Israel: Weren't the Americans, she asked a correspondent, really rather "simple" when it came to the realities of the Middle East? Many American Jews, not surprisingly, are furious at the European response. For nations responsible for the Holocaust to ignore the horrors of suicide attacks on Israeli targets, to shut their ears to the hate for Jews that spews from the Arab media, seems unforgivable. American Jews ask why European peace activists go to Ramallah and Nablus rather than Netanya and Jerusalem. In an essay in the New York Observer, Ron Rosenbaum wrote wrenchingly of a "dynamic" that "suggests that Europeans are willing...to be complicit in the murder of Jews again."

Why do Americans and Europeans see the tragedy of the Middle East in such different ways? In one view, the root cause lies in reactions to the attacks of Sept. 11; Americans have developed a deep hatred of terrorism and identify the Palestinian suicide bomber as a species of the same genus as an al-Qaeda mass murderer. But this tale is deeper and darker than that. In any event, all five of the largest West European countries — Germany, Britain, France, Italy and Spain — have good reasons of their own to detest terrorism.

A possible explanation for European support of the Palestinian cause is that Europe's media have long been better than their U.S. counterparts at covering the misery of Palestinians. I would date the growth of European sympathy for the Palestinian cause to Israel's 1982 incursion into Lebanon, and especially to the massacre by Israel's Lebanese allies of Palestinian refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatila — an outrage for which an official Israeli inquiry held Ariel Sharon indirectly responsible. Sharon, ever since, has been a hate figure for the European left. Europeans who grew up after 1945 have developed a loathing for those who seek to prosecute political ends by military means. Sharon's willingness these past weeks to send tanks into refugee camps — whatever the provocation — touches too many raw nerves.

There's more. To an extent that few Americans understand, modern Europeans have a deep sense of guilt about their colonial adventures. (Indeed, they have much to feel guilty about.) Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth, a chilling catalog of French atrocities in Algeria and a cry to listen to those denied a voice, is one of the post-1945 era's most influential European books. All this has had an effect. It was easy for Europeans to be on the side of Israel when, as in 1967 and 1973, it seemed to be fighting a defensive war against those who wished to eliminate the Jewish state. But as Jewish settlements grew in the West Bank, Europeans became uneasy. Israel seemed to be adopting a policy of colonization that to modern European eyes was not just morally reprehensible but also bound to end in tears.

Clearly, for some Jews these rationalizations are beside the point. Europeans, they argue, are just plain anti-Semitic. They naturally "portray Jews as the real villains," says Rosenbaum; they always have, always will. Well, I just don't believe this about the post-1945 generations of Europeans, though I suspect that's because I don't want to. But, undeniably, past European anti-Semitism has had a bitter effect on present European attitudes. Put at its crudest, most Europeans know very few Jews; they killed too many of them. In America there is a thriving community for whom the survival of Israel is a passionate commitment; in Europe there isn't. No number of school lessons or church sermons about the Holocaust can overcome that humdrum truth.

So why do Europeans and Americans see the Middle East in such different ways? Above all, because the shadow and shame of the Holocaust reaches out of the past and lays a cold hand on our present understanding. All the prayers in the world won't make that grim truth go away.

Rahman,

I don't know about Europe's rejection of Jews (by taking the side of the Palestinians), but I do know I have recently heard many anti-semitic lately from my own extended family members. Racisim just grieves me beyond belief---no matter where it comes from or who it's directed against.

In any case, I can only conclude that this hatred against the Jews is truly a spiritually initiated thing. It is made even more apparent to me because the hatred I see firsthand is coming from people who are not Muslim, but from "professing" Christians---those who should feel some kind of "brotherhood" with the Jew---but in their lostness have succombed to the Devil's "whisperings" about the Jewish people. The same spirit that caused the destruction of millions of Jewish people in the 1940's is alive and well today--------and whispering the same "venomous rhetoric" that caused the atrocities which occurred in WWII.

Dorcas you wrote;
"They were nicknamed 'Jews of Africa' because after they became Christians they turned their natural enthusiasm for living into a dynamic ability to learn and to take well-paid jobs. They were also amongst the first wave of Africans to have attended British Universities. It was all this, which attracted hostility from their Muslim neighbours in the other parts of Nigeria where they frequently found work."

--- OK, are you exampling this as to why so many people hate Jews ... That being that many Jews seem industrious and have a tendency to prosper where-ever they settle, while most of the indigenous folk are content with their own laziness until such industriousness shows them up, then instead of blaming themselves for their lot in life they blame the new minority? ... If so then i've experienced the same thing from American Africans who view Jamaican and African imigrants to the U.S. as greedy, and money grubbing because they'll work three jobs ... On this subject this may apply ...

Of times past (particularly in WW2 Germany) historians have classified six explanations as to why people hated the Jews:

Why Do People Hate The Jews?
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

1 - Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
2 - Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
3 - Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
4 - Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
5 - Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
-6 - Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

Lets just take the one on "economic" ... It's also a historical fact that the Jews of 17th-20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were still hated (probably more so from the other 5 reasons to hate) ... Tho i know
in western europe there were many prominent and rich Jews, by percentage (they were a minority) to the rest of society i don't think they were dominant in the holding of majority wealth, tho i think they did alright ... i think the major problem was Germany, bankrupt after WWI, seething and ripening for satan's man Hitler, who in need of quick wealth and a rallying point for the sick minds in Germany latched on to the industrious outsiders, the Jews, as a solution ... This in the natural, but of course i believe something much more sinister on satans part in the super-natural ...

But in your bringing this up this made me think of this site and an offering of explanation why people, especially europeans, have a renewed sense of hate for the Jew based on old themes but with aslightly new twist:

From: The Demons of Europe -
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1051506/posts

A Mutual Hating of Americanism & Zionism (my heading) -

Quote;
The routine pairing of Israel and America is surely the most interesting new motif in our old story, and has been well dissected by Natan Sharansky in these pages. How to interpret it? Again, one must beware of equating criticism with anti-ism and instead look for the classic telltale signs. They are there in abundance.

Stereotyping and denigration: The indictment of the United States comes in three parts. First, America is morally flawed. It executes its own people, and it likes to bomb other people. It is the land of intolerant fundamentalist religion. Selfish and self-absorbed, it refuses to ratify the International Criminal Court or agreements to protect the environment. It is "Dirty Harry" and "Globocop" rolled into one — an irresponsible and arrogant citizen of the world.

Second, America is socially retrograde: it is the fountainhead of a "predatory capitalism" (according to a former German chancellor) that denies social services to those who need them most. Instead of bettering the lot of its darker-skinned minorities, it shunts millions of them into prison. America accepts, nay, admires gross income inequalities and defies the claims of social justice.

Finally, America is culturally inferior. It gorges itself on fast food, wallows in tawdry mass entertainment, starves the arts, and prays only to one god, which is Mammon. It sacrifices the best of culture to pap and pop. In matters sexual, America is both prurient and prudish. It is a society where Europe's finest values — solidarity and community, taste and manners — are ground down by rampant individualism.

Demonization and obsession. The best shorthand statement under this heading is a cartoon on a Jordanian website in April 2002 that showed a jeep-like SUV, a pack of cigarettes with a Marlboro design, a can of Coca-Cola, and a hamburger — all dripping with blood. These, the cartoon insinuates, are the weapons that drive America's quest for global domination. They are meant to seduce, but the blood with which they are saturated symbolizes violent imposition. Yield to the seduction, and the price will be the loss of your own culture, dignity, and power.

Like any proper target of anti-ism, America is seen as omnipotent and omni-causal. America's is the hand that pulls all strings. The U.S. is the cause of poverty, despotism, and exploitation in the third world. Like any target of anti-ism, the U.S gets it coming and going: it is a threat to peace when it uses its fearsome power (Iraq) and a traitor to humanity when it does not (Rwanda as well as Bosnia/Kosovo before the bombing campaign).

The similarities with anti-Semitism are hard to escape. Like Jews, Americans are selfish and arrogant. Like Jews, they are in thrall to a fundamentalist religion that renders them self-righteous and dangerous. As classical anti-Semitism opposes the loving kindness of the New Testament to the vengeful God of the Old, rapidly de-Christianizing Europe likes to contrast its secular-humanist ethos with the harsh Calvinism of America. If the Jews bestride the world as the "Chosen People," Americans claim to live in "God's Own Country" while arrogating unto themselves, as a favorite anti-Bushism has it, a "divine mission."

Another mainstay of the anti-Semitic faith, anti-capitalism, has likewise passed smoothly from the Jews to the United States. Like Jews, Americans are money-grubbers who know only the value of money, and the worth of nothing. Like Jews, Americans are motivated only by profit. Relentlessly competitive ("pushy"), they are the solvents of social justice as they are of every worthy tradition. If the empire of international Jewry was built on finance and trade, America's is built on a "globalization" that exploits the helpless and kills jobs.

Here conspiracy rears its head. Again like the Jews, America is the mastermind extraordinaire, its hand behind every plot, even the immolation of the World Trade Center; in 2003, a half-dozen books on this theme became bestsellers in France and Germany. Echoing a classic indictment of "World Jewry," a poster during an anti-Bush demonstration in Berlin in 2002 read: "Stop Bush's Grab for Global Power!"

Sis Cindy you wrote;
"I don't know about Europe's rejection of Jews (by taking the side of the Palestinians), but I do know I have recently heard many anti-semitic comments----from unsaved family members here in the good ol' USA" ...

---Amen, we're gonna hear it on this side of the pond too, and bless God that you're hearing it from un-saved, but i've noticed amongst my co-workers since 9/11 more of a sense commraderie with Israel, and a whole lot fewer anti-jewish comments ... Tho amongst those of us numbered conservatives, and myself as an outspoken Christian, we do bemoan this phenomena a bit;

From: Why does America tend to side with Israel and Europe with the Arabs?
http://freelebanon.org/articles/a213.htm

Quote:
"American sympathy for Israel and European support for the Arabs are essentially cultural statements, unrelated to the finer points of the ‘Palestinian question’. America supports Israel not because it’s Jewish but because it’s democratic. In fact, Republicans support Israel despite the Jews. American Jews are urban liberals and one of the Democratic party’s most reliable core demographics. There is no political benefit whatsoever to Bush in taking a ‘hard pro-Israel line’. Au contraire, Arab-Americans are just about the only immigrant group other than the Cubans that votes Republican. Yet that will never translate into GOP support for Arab states as presently constituted. My northern, rural, conservative neighbours are, when you prod ’em a little, mildly xenophobic and share a reflexive distaste for overt Jewishness. But they’ll always back Israel over Syria or Egypt because to them liberty trumps everything else. They are also under no illusions as to the kind of state an Arafat-led Palestine would be: if you gave him Switzerland to run, he’d turn it into a sewer. So Republicans look at Israel and see not Jews but a liberal democracy."

--- i support Israel first because as a Christian i believe i'm suppose to, then for more spiritually sentimental reasons ...

Also you might find this most interesting ...

Anti-Semitism and Prejudice in America
Highlights from an ADL Survey - November 1998
http://www.adl.org/antisemitism_survey/survey_main.asp

ANTI-SEMITISM IN AMERICA. 2002.
Highlights from a May 2002 Survey ... and monitor levels of anti-Semitism in the United States. ...
http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/2002/as_survey.pdf

... you're unsaved relatives might become a little inscenced at what category they show up in on this subject ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus! ---

This just gets more interesting as i go ...

i found that France seems to have the largest number of Jews in Europe, some 600,00, and the biggest increase in anti-semitism with a growing muslim population at around 6 million now (10% of the population) ... Looks to me like France is in trouble, and if i we're Jewish i wouldn't be there ... What's the old saying; "Those who don't learn from the lessons of history, are bound to repeat it" ...

On pages 12 & 25 of the European Survey those polled blamed the increase of anti-semetic incidents not so
much on old views of the Jewish population, but on what the state of Israel is doing in middle east particularly in reference to the Palestinians (and i bet it's worse now since Israel's bout with Hezbollah) ...

ADL WEBSITE -
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4726_13.htm

EUROPE -
6/7/05
ADL Survey in 12 European Countries Finds Anti-Semitic Attitudes Still Strongly Held
http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/european_attitudes_may_2005.pdf

Notice pages 12 & 25

AMERICA -
4/4/05
Anti-Semitism - U.S. -
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4680_12.htm

2005 SURVEY -
http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/Anti_Semitic_Attitudes_files/frame.htm

dorcas you wrote;

"so I'm concerned at the impact on readers of phrases such as 'so many people hate Jews ...' because this gives absolutely no perspective on what you mean by 'so many'."

---Hmmmm ... i used the phrase "so many" to denote that i don't know a specific number, but am attempting to get some perspective on this, that's why i've read and posted so many links to surveys, tho "many" to me seems likes more than less, and i also guess within this number varies the degrees from hate to dislike ... i've worked with folk (in America) over the years who had from a disdain for the Jew to outright hatred, and it was interesting to hear their reasons why ... i believe that in Germany pre-holocaust there were those who were in the minority that just outright hated the Jew (they became the leaders), and a majority (excluding those with no ill feelings toward Jews at all) who once the "haters" set the agenda followed them to the degree of their dislike for the Jew ... i found it interesting during WW2 that when it got hot in Europe for the fleeing Jew there were no countries willing to accept them (even America except for some scentific elite), and as Hitler's forces overrode Europe even western european countries (governments and citizens) gave them up ... So based on history i don't think anyone reading this thread will have to much trouble with my saying "so many people" ... i posted this thread hoping to hear from saints in european countries to find out if in fact they feel anti-semitism is again on the rise in europe and is that "so many people" in their view either decreasing or increasing ... Your report from Britain says there's not a problem, and i've taken note as such ---

[b]dorcas you wrote[/b];
"In your paragraph above which I've quoted in full, you go on to refer to the Ibos as the minority (which they were - not only ethnically but religiously as Christians in the Muslim parts of Nigeria), but 'so many' might be an even smaller (but influential) number than the 'minority'.... might it not? This could not, then, be 'so many'.... could it?

We know that people are like sheep - easily led - and easily led astray at that. [b]You titled your response 'Anti-Semitism in Britain? ...' and this too, I find .... shall I say.... at least slightly inflammatory."[/b]

--- As to the top portion of your statement i think i covered it in the first part of this post ... So yes the most dangerous haters could be just a little group, but those whom you called "so easily led astray" are the ones to be really concerned about, for in WW2 Germany once the more satanically inspired "haters" attained the commradierie of "those so easily led astray" the Jew in Europe didn't stand a chance ... i'm under the impression that this happened once in Europe, and under anti-christ (perhaps even leading up to) it may happen again ...

[b] As to your statement about my titled responce "Anti-Semitism in Britain?" did you notice that i put a question mark behind it - so technically i meant it as a question and not a statement ... As to anything i post here, survey links included, if you read my: "For The Record" post that's why i stated i'm coming at this topic from a Christian/spiritual first bend, and not from national of ethnic, which is also why i felt led to post the surveys on anti-semetism in America, just in case a saints national or ethnic pride might take offense[/b] ...

That is why my response to you was;

Quoting me;
"Now your post has made me single out Britain in this research and this is what i've found" ... According to the stats anti-semitsm in Britain is nowhere near as bad as it is in other parts of Europe ... That's good to hear, and stands for reason as the UK doesn't seem to be so much an ally of the EU as it is of the U.S."

Did you check out this website tho? ... This is the latest survey i could find about increasing anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe;

EUROPE -
6/7/05
ADL Survey in 12 European Countries Finds Anti-Semitic Attitudes Still Strongly Held
http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/european_attitudes_may_2005.pdf

Notice pages 12 & 25

i posted this thread to find out "IF" and "WHY" anti-semetism may be raising it's ugly head higher again in Europe ... According to the stats it is, and the interesting "WHY" is not so much based on the old predjudices but has all to do with Jews in Europe being guilty by association with what's not liked about the operations of the nation of Israel itself, with added disdain for it being tied to America ... So its also a part of anti-American sentiment ...This is primarily what i wanted to understand ...

And praise God on the rest of your statement about Jews in Britain enjoying all the same amenities as any other British citizens ... If i had to give advice to any european Jew i'd tell them if you can't get out of Europe at least try to get to Britain, or perhaps Israel itself tho it's dangerous in its own right, but if you can get out come to America before we institute a moritorium on immigration (which i believe is soon coming) ... i thought just last night if i were Jewish i'd rather be poorer in America than richer in Europe ...

Also i notice you made mention of the Pakistani citizens you have in the UK ...
Do you think that your arab/muslim citizens will continue to enjoy uninterupted their British citizen rights say in light of the latest terrorist your government foiled? ... i can tell you that i believe here in the states arabs/muslims are soon gonna experience the likes of predjudice and hatred unprecedented, and i dare say that if any of them ever begin to blow themselves up in our malls, etc., no ethnic looking middle easterner will be safe in this country ... i wonder what the former colonialist countries such as Britain and France, with such large arab/muslim citizentry, can do as terrorism escalates amongst them? ... Interesting times we're living in! ...

[b] Again, to all, not trying to tweak national or ethnic sore points, just trying to pay attention to the signs by finding out facts[/b] --- :-D

Just thinking out loud some more, but Dorcas' replies have made me think about a number of things here;

1 - In reference to numbers should "so many" be changed to "many"?

2 - In reference to hate, is hate to strong a word and perhaps i should say dislike?

3 - In reference to tying ancient things (like lineages and what God says about them) to our modern day, should i just leave such things out of this equation?

So should my thread title just simply be:
Why are the Jews Disliked by so many Europeans & Russians?

To me this just brings it right down to the "natural" and completely dismisses the "supernatural" and it's Biblical statements/explanations ...

1 - MANY vs SO MANY? ...

First off i believe in the spiritual, as Christ Himself said, we're either "for or against Him, His will, way, word and plan" ... Just because one might mildly reject "the Way of God" which then and now He examples to other people via His chosen people who bear His name, still won't keep one out of Hell ... The mere fact that one rejects the carriers of His name, is just a nicer way of saying they reject Him! ... God puts no degrees of gray to rejection ...

i believe that even now tho most Jews reject Christ as Messiah, they still suffer HATE (not just dislike) primarily amongst the gentiles because they once carried God's name (still guilty by association), and secondarily amongst some misguided Christians because many Jews rejected Christ and called for His crucifiction, and thirdly tho many people may not realize it satan knows that God ain't finished with them yet as i believe Rev. 12 makes plain, and that all destroyed at the battle of Armegeddon, and after the 1,000 year reign of Christ Ezek.37 & 38, has Israel and Jerusalem at the very center of the reason WHY ...

According to;

Top 10 Largest National Jewish Populations (1997 polling)
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_judaism.html

Of the almost 6 billion people on the planet today Jews as a ethnic group make up about 15 - 17 million souls with about 3 million of them in Russia, France and UK today, 5 million in the US and about 5 to 6 million in Israel ... Amazing isn't it that even today 5 to 6 million Israelis in a sliver of a country has all the great powers of the world sitting on the edge of their UN seats? ...

2 - HATED OR JUST DISLIKED -
i looked up the word "dislike" in my KJV Bible search and it's not listed once, tho the word "hate" is listed 235 times, some in OT reference to how gentiles felt about ancient Israel (which i believe is just a carryover today), and some in reference to how unbeliever's feel about Christ' Church today and it all has to do with bearing His name;

Luke.21:17 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

John.7:7 - The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John.15
[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
[23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
[24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

i believe if you're special to God, you're a target of the devil ... Israel (i believe) is still speacial to God, tho not in the sense that we the Church are now in this time of "grace" ... But i also believe to be yet attached to the name of God OT or NT will get you "hate" in the supernatural, tho in the natural it's much more comfortable to knock it down to dislike ... And even tho some of us saints aren't undergoing any real hate type persecution here in the west according to scripture everyone who ain't of Jesus hates Him and ALL WE that are associated with Him ...

According to;

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Out of almost 6 billion people on the planet today professing Christians are about 1.9 billion (33%) ... That means that 2/3rds. of the globe, including those practicing Judaism, hate Christ as the only means to the Father, and we who proclaim His great commision ... Pretty sobering thought that 2/3rds. of the world in Christ talk hates us!

3 - DOES THE ANCIENT IMPACT THE MODERN -

This is most fascinating because it's evident to me that all that happened in Genesis is impacting our modern lives today, and i believe Noah's curse/blessings right after the flood does so in ways we'll never understand on this side of glory ...

i find it amazing that even after the 1,000 year reign of Christ that when satan is released a final time he'll be able to find followers against Christ and the unwalled dwellings of Jerusalem in the following nations;

- Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal
(descendants of Japheth = Russia)
- Persia (descendants of Japheth = Iran)
- Ethiopia (descendants of Ham)
- Libya (descendants of Ham)
- Gomer, and all his bands (descendants of Japheth = some point to Germany)
- the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands
(descendants of Japheth = some point to the Turks)

Interesting that a portion of the descendants of Ham and a great many of Japheth's are named here amongst a hatred that reaches even after the glorious millenial reign ... Now that's hatred long, deep and dark! ... :-?

The Reemergence of Political Anti-Semitism in Russia
http://www.adl.org/russia/russian_political_antisemitism_3.asp

Anti-Semitism in Russia: 2002
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/as_russia.asp

Anti-Semitism in the Post-Soviet States
2 April 2003
Betsy Gidwitz
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-7.htm

i've been listening to some Rabbis on this jewish website and i'm learning a lot, but i have to admit that if it were not for Holy Spirit's ministering i would be very offended by some of the things said about Christ and Christianity and i really (in my soul/flesh) don't like the word "goyim" ... It's not that i don't like the word as much as the way some of the Rabbis i'm listening to use it ... i also noticed that Jews who convert to Christianity catch a pretty rough deal from some of these Rabbis on this site ... i guess i'd not realized how much Jews who've become Christians are regarded as traitors by so many other Jews ...

Judaism: God's Chosen Religion? # BA 655 C
by Berger, Rabbi Motty
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8&directkw=Christianity

anti-missionary
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8&directkw=anti-missionary

i'm wondering if the stinging comments about Christ and Christianity, and the disdain i hear in the word "goyim" have always been felt/spoken by many Jews, or is it because of the history of abuse gentiles and Christianity (which many speak of as Catholicism alone) have leveled against the Jews, and in particular is it a "now" product of the Holocaust? ... i don't rightly know, but history tells me that the majority of Jewish orthodoxy/Rabbis at Jesus time didn't like Him to the point of plotting His death, and i would think that subsequent Rabbis wouldn't like Him or His followers either ... Does anyone know if Jews, particularly from say 1850 to the refounding of the nation in 1948 were highly visible in their criticism of Christ and Christianity? ... Or were they, as it seems, pretty much quiet about such matters in public, and if discussed at all was discussed mongst themselves? ... From researching i do know that there were some very outspoken Jews in the 1800's who were the fathers of Zionism, and that there were all types of Zionist political and religious ...

An interesting thing i heard one of these Rabbis say in regards anti-semetism is something that i concluded earlier ... He said that by the very fact that Jews initially were picked out to carry God's name, and to govern their lives by His Law, that they are a reminder to the gentile that there is one God, and that we too tho non Jew are also convicted by the Law ...

World Perfect: The Jewish Impact on Civilization -
by Spiro, Rabbi Ken
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8&directkw=history

In essence, as apparently Hitler commented on, the Jew is a pain to the gentile because it was by them that God birthed His Law which condemns and convicts all men to our failings spiritually, morally and ethically ... This makes sense to me in line with why Ham rejected Shem, and i would think that of Japhet's lineage, whose motto seems to be "prosperity by any means necessary" would pretty much choke on a religiously pious people who projected even a mild disdain on immoral and unethical ill gotten gain ... In one of the history lessons on this site it states than many a Jew in Europe had came to the conclusion between WWI and WWII that in order to not stand out so much they would assimilate, particulary into German society, and that they would shed Judaism ... Many became Christians, while others just abandoned God altogether ... None of this seemed to do them any good in Europe as history attest, and now it seems the anti-semetism of the past has now been traded in for anti-zionism today ...

This leads me to some observations about Jews who have become Christians ... Let me say up front that i'm not trying to get any one bent out of shape but these are some things i wonder ...

According to Gal.3 Paul says;
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

These are my ponderings;

1 - Technically by this scripture, spiritually, religiously, is there any such thing as a Messianic Jew, or are you/they just a Christian like everyone else? ...

2 - i've often wondered why in so many Christian Jewish congregations there seems to be an attempt to marry their/your former Judaism to their/your newer Christianity ... Is this spiritually correct, or is it like what i believe our Lord has shown me to be a similar problem in congregations that are primarily American African - that being that we're trying to juggle our former Am/Af agenda with our new Christ agenda ... Case in point, i've sat in Am/Af churches where i know for a fact white members/visitors have been offended by Am/Af agendas that had nothing to do with Christ's ...

3 - If by faith in Christ alone we ALL become Abraham's seed and joint heirs to that historical promise is it right for a person of Jewish descent (lineage and/or religiously) to still attempt to set oneself out even as a fulfilled Jew, and is part of the reason for doing so a way of creating ones own niche in Christ due to now not being able to fit into a percieved gentile church, or perhaps to distinguish a congregation as such a safe haven for other Jewish converts? ...

4 - Or do many Christians of Jewish descent feel pressured to form congregations amongst themselves because the majority "so called" gentile Christians still hold a certain amount of predjudice against them, as in the same vein was/is also percieved by so many saints of Hamitic descent toward fellow saints of Japhethic descent ? ...

5 - What does one Lord, one faith, one baptism really mean? ...

6 - Doesn't any other former agenda (regardless of who or what it is or we are) joined to His own agenda, in His Church, promote division instead of our "oneness" in Christ? ...

7 - "Churchianity" (exclusive mentality) or "Christianity" (all inclusive mentality) which are we really practicing in the name of Jesus Christ ? ...

i'm finding this an interesting subject and subject matter ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

Rahman wrote:

He said that by the very fact that Jews initially were picked out to carry God's name, and to govern their lives by His Law, that they are a reminder to the gentile that there is one God, and that we too tho non Jew are also convicted by the Law ...

I would guess this is the heart of the conflict that exists between Jews and others. Now add Christians to this mix and the number of people to be hated grows larger for the same reason.

To suggest that because of something that happened several thousand years ago between some men is why the animosity still exists is ridiculous UNLESS there is a spiritual dimension involved and that is what I am suggesting is the contributing problem. There have been many other people who have come and gone during the past eons whose hatred for each other was sharp but today we know nothing about it outside of recorded history.

My suggestion on this issue is that there is a spiritual dimension involved here unlike any other hostilities that exisit between ethnic groups.

Just my thoughts...

ginnyrose

bro Karl

Why make the distinction with Shem and Jepheth?

the distinction between jew and gentile remains even until the Revelation so evidently there is a purpose for it. as our Lord had me go through Romans 9, HE showed me that where we are unified as one in Christ is as it pertains to salvation, none can be saved outside of Christ whether you are a Jew or not. However there are some things which i as a gentile can have no part in because i am not a jew and vice versa. Like sister Ginnyrose said, there is a spiritual component to this which until it is addressed, the symptoms of hate and so on will remain.

By the way in Christ, God doesn't recognize any ethnic groups, for they are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christ still does and indeed God still recognizes the different ethnic groups because they each have unique things to do in the fulfilment of His plan. however He doesn't make any differentiation as far as salvation is concerned.

Bro Karl you wrote;
"Why make the distinction with Shem and Japheth?"

---You'd have to go all the way back to the beginning and read thru to find out why i asked about what/why the division was/is between Japheth and Shem at Noah's cursing of Canaan ... i was wondering if Noah's decree that Japheth would prosper, but dwell in the tents of Shem was percieved by Japheth as a blessing or a curse ---

Bro Karl you wrote;
"Why not speak in New Testement terms, the old man Adam and the new Man Christ Jesus?"

--- Because my asking is strictly a literal OT question that has no analogy with Adam and Christ ... It's asked in light of so many ancient hatreds among lineages still being manifested in our very present time ... The battle between good/evil has it's roots in the ancient, and God certainly decreed some prophetic utterances regarding lineages that are far reaching ---

Bro Karl you wrote;
"By the way in Christ, God doesn't recognize any ethnic groups, for they are all one in Christ Jesus."

--- Amen, i like to say all we in Christ are seen by God in one color: Crimson red = Christ' shed blood ... But folk down here on the ground (specifically the unsaved) sure do recognize ethnicity, and they react often very violently as did Hitler and his following ... i posted this in reference to why a renewed increase of anti-semitism (Shem) in europe (primarily inhabited by the descendants of Japheth) just trying to get an idea of what are Jews doing now that's got so many European's twisted - AGAIN?... Seems it's the consensus of the EU, after two WW's on their continent, that "religion" is at the center of war ... Their solution politically is to get rid of "religion" and become secular, and now they've not much tolerance for the likes of America (Christian) or Israel (Judaism) who's religion is increasingly showing thru in their politics, in lockstep with and at logerheads with Arabia (Islam) ...

Also in light of the Revelation (after the church's rapture as i believe) it still seems to me that God the Father is still pretty interested in at least one ethnic group, the same ones He sent His Son thru, the line of Shem, and is now known to many as "the Jewish carpenter from Nazareth" ... This is what i see, if you or anyone else see different that's fine with me as i'll not argue the points ... i'm interested in learning others views on this subject, tho not to argue them as much as share and discuss ---