I recently read in article on Way of the Master against the "Carnal Christian." The argument seemed kind of weak. Recently, I heard Paul Washer say there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. Can someone bring in some hard Biblical evidence of this? Thank you.
Yes, this is something I've wondered as well. Even Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they were "carnal", yet he did not say they were lost, or were they?
And since "carnal" means fleshly, would this simply be a person who continues to live according to the flesh?
This is gonna be good :-D
good question, artemiol
i agree with paul washer. to say that christians can be carnal is going agaist the rest of the word. goes agaist the cross of Christ. Jesus was pretty clear of those who are true disciples.
read romans 8
Romans 8:5-7
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
galatians also speaks of that those who PRACTICE sin will not enter the kingdom.
if you read all of 1 and 2 cor. paul was very harsh to the corithians. i believe he still calls them christians because they did have a true conversion so he treats them still as brethrens. but you see later in 2 cor. chapter 7 that the corithians repented because of pauls's strong message to them. so this shows that they were backsliding pretty bad and in need of repentance or else.
2 Corinthians 7
The Corinthians’ Repentance
2 Open your hearts to us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have cheated no one. 3 I do not say this to condemn; for I have said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together. 4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
5 For indeed, when we came to Macedonia, our bodies had no rest, but we were troubled on every side. Outside were conflicts, inside were fears. 6 Nevertheless God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming, but also by the consolation with which he was comforted in you, when he told us of your earnest desire, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. 12 Therefore, although I wrote to you, I did not do it for the sake of him who had done the wrong, nor for the sake of him who suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear to you.
God bless,
lisa
I just thought I'd throw out their a opinion on something that I've been thinking about lately.
Hmm, Paul. Wrote about abstaining from idols, homosexuality, etc. But he wrote to who? the sinners? NOPE, but the Saints, the people of God. Could it be you can do abominable sins, and still be Christian? (I'm not saying this, nor denying this, just a 'thought')
Carnal Christians is the 'Christianese' term, and such, but I don't know. Just thought I'd throw something out there in the mix 'to think about' brother.
Love ya in Christ,
Joshua
Sister Lisa quoted Romans 8:5-7...
If I may add to Paul's teaching where he continues in Romans 8:12-13...
"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
In this section of Scripture we find that Paul is speaking to the brethren who have been born again. Here Paul teaches that we who have been born from above have a choice. If we continue to live according to the flesh we will die. But if by the Spirit we "put to death the deeds of the body," we will live.
A carnal christian is biblical. If the Bible states it, it is true. Jesus taught this same principle in John 8:31-36.
In this section of Scripture Jesus gives us a choice also. One can choose to remain a slave to sin or one can choose to hear the truth. Those who continue in bondage to sin do not live in the house forever. Those who are set free do remain in the house forever.
In Christ
Jeff
Is there a difference between the idea of Carnal Christian and backsliding? Now I was talking to my sister about the whole pereserverance of the Saints thing(which might be a whole nother topic in itself), and she brought about the cases of Lot and Saul. I know they are OT cases, but..I'm not [u]sure
Proverbs 14:14
"The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above."
Here we see the choice of seeking the things of the flesh or the things of the Spirit.
Those who perservere have grown to love what the Spirit is doing in their lives. Those who seek to satisfy the flesh cannot understand the love that God has for them for they choose not to walk with Him.
In Christ
Jeff
I think you have to be very careful not to mix up the Old and New Covenants.and she brought about the cases of Lot and Saul. I know they are OT cases,
Not sure what gave you the idea of Saul being 'saved' either. He was disobedient and God took away the kingdom from him as a direct result.
Try Hebrews 11 for a list of people who did make it though, and notice the reasons they did.... Then tag on the last couple of verses of that chapter, and you have THE link between the Old and New Covenants - between some of them - and [u]us
Amen Dorcas,
A carnal Christian is only carnal when he or she is attaining their own salvation by means other that Christ. If a Christian depends on the Christ that is born again in them how can they be carnal. They may sin because of the pulls of the old nature they had but in spirit they are a new creature. We have an advocate with the Father, and forgiveness is just sin is just a confession away, and by the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit Teacher and God the Father we are cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Seek Christ and the things above and the carnal things of this world will grow strangely dim. That is the Christ in you has taken over your spirit and our minds are being renewed to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Teacher. Being carnal is not trusting Christ as our new life but depending on our own works to get to heaven and complete our salvation. Our works carnal, Christ and His works in us by the Power of the Holy Spirit, not carnal. In doing this carnality is gone and sin grows dimmer and dimmer, but still still carnality is doing it my way. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on His name: Carnality has nothing to do with salvation, but in working our salvation with fear and trembling instead of works self acknowledgement. Like Frank sang it, I did it my way, this is our carnality.
Wonder why Frank did not sing this? Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
As even to non Gentiles, we should give spiritual things, that is, by Grace God has saved you in Christ Jesus, by giving birth of Jesus Christ in those that are now of a New Spirit in Christ Jesus. Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. Salvation by Grace not by works.
Even Paul confirming this to the Corinthians: 1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
In Christ: Phillip
I would say that there is no such thing as a Carnal Christian. I think there are times when a Christian will act out in the flesh, but he will NOT stay that way for any extended period of time or he is NO Christian at all (1 John 3:9). A True Christian has repented and therefore thinks the same about sin as God does...he hates it. He wants nothing to do with it. As we look at certain passages such a 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Hebrews 5:11-14 that talk about "Carnal Christians", we must keep in mind a couple of things: Just because these letters are written to local Churches, doesn't mean that everyone within each local Church is a Christian. I am sure that we can all testify to that by experience (Matthew 7:21-23). Just about every letter written in the N.T. (I can't think of an exception) was written to talk about 3 groups of people: the saved, the ones who heard the Gospel and were yet not Born Again (Counterfeit Christians) and those who knew they weren't saved. There may be exceptions to this, but 1 Corinthians and Hebrews are definitely NOT exceptions to this. Just remember that the letters were written as a whole letter. When people read them after they received them, they wouldn't read it a chapter or verse at a time (of course there were no chapters or verses yet), but would read the letter as a whole. That is exactly what you and me would do if we received a letter from someone today. If you look at just 1 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 5 though, you can see that the writers (Paul and whoever) were rebuking the people for their conduct. The writers weren't say that their state was ok...that is for SURE. In fact, if you read on to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul states who DEFINITELY will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. I think that qualifies what he says in 1 Corinthians 3. Just because he didn't say it in 1 Corinthians 3, doesn't mean he is saying that they ARE Christians. Then in his second letter to the same local Church, he admonishes them to check themselves to see if they truly ARE in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5). Plus, you also have Paul's letter to the Galatians in chapter 5:19-21 where Paul again says that those who live in such a way will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Then in Hebrews 5, it doesn't necessarily say that the people the writer is talking about aren't saved...but then if you read on in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-27, you will see that it is qualified. When it comes down to it, Paul was calling them to examine themselves and so was the writer of Hebrews. There is NO SUCH THING as a Carnal Christian. The Word of God makes this much clear. How can there be one when the Spirit of God lives inside such a person? Aren't they forever changed (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Jeremiah 32:38-41)? Paul also wrote Romans 6 and Romans 8. One of the main principles of Biblical Hermeneutics is to interpret unclear passages (1 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 5) in light of clear passages (all the other ones I mentioned). Hope this helps...God Bless!
Paul say, he is carnal. He also says there is only one way to not be carnal.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Let us serve the things of God in the spirit and carnality will not be a concern. If we live in the flesh we will mind the things of the flesh. If we live in the Spirit we will mind the the things of the Spirit. Carnality is not sin, but sin is the fruit of carnality. We cannot sin in the Spirit it is Christs, we can sin in the flesh if we allow carnality to produce it.
Carnality and temptation are the precursors to sin. Our Minds are the battle ground. That is why Paul can say "with the mind I serve the Law of God, and unless carnality and temptation are filtered through the mind of Christ, whom we have, we will serve flesh and sin.
In Christ: Phillip
Brother Phillip wrote:
Carnality and temptation are the precursors to sin. Our Minds are the battle ground. That is why Paul can say "with the mind I serve the Law of God, and unless carnality and temptation are filtered through the mind of Christ, whom we have, we will serve flesh and sin.
Carnality is subject to the flesh according to Paul's teaching. In the flesh there is nothing good. The carnal mind is enmity against God.
Where does temptation find it's source?
In Christ
Jeff
Brother Phillip wrote:
A carnal Christian is only carnal when he or she is attaining their own salvation by means other that Christ.
This is not true according to Scripture. Paul does not focus on religion, he focuses on behavior.
What aspects does Paul site as the outworking of those who continue to follow the carnal mind?
In Christ
Jeff
Hmm, none of these posts convinced me of either position. Somebody help! :)
Jeff, I don't think you can have it both ways. Behaviour is a result of the choices made by the mind and the body (Eph 2:2). The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. OC writes eloquently about the major role the will plays in our relationship with God. That's why I don't and can never agree with you that the flesh is stuck in Romans 7.Paul does not focus on religion, he focuses on behavior.
Liberty in the Spirit is liberty to obey the Spirit rather than the carnal mind and the old habits which sin laid down in the flesh.Carnality is subject to the flesh according to Paul's teaching. In the flesh there is nothing good. The carnal mind is enmity against God.
Abiding in Christ (John 15, Gal 5:22,23) is what happens when the flesh begins to bear the fruit of the Spirit, through its obedient rest in His life; that is, the life of Jesus Christ being outworked [i][b]through our flesh[i][b]must
Sis wrote:
Liberty in the Spirit is liberty to obey the Spirit rather than the carnal mind and the old habits which sin laid down in the flesh.
In this statement you have also correctly condemned the carnal mind. You are absolutely correct in that, experiencing the "Liberty in the Spirit is liberty to obey the Spirit." This is the means by which God has determined for man to escape the corruption of original sin.
Meditate on what the words of Jesus say...
John 6:63
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
First come to terms with what Jesus says of the flesh. Second contemplate what Jesus means, when He says, "The WORDS that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." Do words affect the body or the motivations, the understanding, the realization that God actually does communicate to men and that we can know His love for us because we hear and then understand how He loves us. Understanding can only come from the illumination by the Holy Spirit. The relationship is established on the Holy Scriptures which define the truth. When one begins to realize this truth it becomes a treasure that the carnal mind has not the capacity to understand.
Psalm 119:129-132
"Your testimonies are wonderful; therefore my soul keeps them. The entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. I opened my mouth and panted, for I longed for Your commandments. Look upon me and be merciful to me, as Your custom is toward those who love Your name."
Look closly to what the Psalmist is saying here about understanding. And then look to the final verse. "Look upon me and be merciful to me, as Your custom is toward those who love Your name." This psalmist understands the ways of God in his life and those who are His children. He speaks of God's "custom."
The psalmist has experienced God's custom toward him because he loves His name.
God Bless you Sis
In Christ
Jeff
I wanted to respond to an earlier post on 1st page. Paul indeed was writing to the church at Corinth. BUT it was pretty much a rebuke and he was telling them to expel the person who was in sin. He also said to not even eat with a person who calls himself a brother and yet continues in sin.
Jeff,
""The carnal mind is enmity against God.""
The Mind of Christ is Oneness with God.
""Where does temptation find it's source?""
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Temtation is not sin yet.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
We have the capacity to not sin. By the same James.
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Who is the engrafted Word? 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The word engrafted is better serviced by the word implanted in the context of the ability to save souls. It is the Mind of Christ implanted in the believer. It is the mind of Christ in the believer that is able to lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, by His commandment, "He who keeps my commandments" it is he that loves me. It is not sinning but keeping and loving, which in Him we have His capacity to do this, just like He did it with His Father.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Carnality is overcome by the mind not the flesh. That is what Paul is talking about. Do you have the MInd of Christ? Is Christ In You? Are you a new Creature in Christ? Is the Holy Spirit baptized into you by Christ? Is the Holy Spirit revealing Truth to you about the Christ in you? Are you baptized into Christ by God the Father and sealed by the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.
If your answers are yes, look what God has done at the Cross. None available before the Cross.
We are truly new Creatures in Christ Jesus.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
In Christ: Phillip
Quote:
""I wanted to respond to an earlier post on 1st page. Paul indeed was writing to the church at Corinth. BUT it was pretty much a rebuke and he was telling them to expel the person who was in sin. He also said to not even eat with a person who calls himself a brother and yet continues in sin.""
It was for a specific sin, that is a son with his father's wife. When he was rebuked and repented he was gone after by Paul and the congregation to bring him back into the Body of Christ the Church. 2 Corinthians 2:6-9 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
In Christ these things should not even be spoken of. I this man with his father's wife would have known that Christ was in him and the Holy Spirit had revealed this Christ to him, he most probably would have not sined as he did. Corinth was a very flesh oriented city, kind of like Vegas, and New Orleans, and San Francisco. This kind of thing was pretty much ok. When Paul presented Christ to them it became clear that it was not. When he found out he changed and repented and every one new it.
Paul said he was testing them for obedience, This is the only place I have a problem with Paul, in his self righteousness and great revelation of Christ, this is one place I think the thorn in Paul was used.
Again: 2 Corinthians 2:6-9 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
Paul's Gospel is what we are going to be judged by and that is what we have done with the Christ that is in us the hope of glory. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
In Christ: Phillip
""I wanted to respond to an earlier post on 1st page. Paul indeed was writing to the church at Corinth. BUT it was pretty much a rebuke and he was telling them to expel the person who was in sin. He also said to not even eat with a person who calls himself a brother and yet continues in sin.""
This is only one manifestation of the sin Paul was addressing in Corinth.
1 Corinthains 3:
"And I brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ."
In this Scripture we see that Paul address the church as brethren who are carnal and babes in Christ. These people have already been addressed by Paul as existing, being in Christ.
There is a insuffieciency that is being addressed by Paul in the church at Corinth. Paul is not able to speak to them as a spiritual people because they would not understand.
What does Paul site as the reason for the brethren's lack of spiritual understanding?
In Christ
Jeff
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