interesting Calvinism quote

Hmm, I'm not Calvinist. but, that sounds like a movie. Think about it. Director's have a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy' and someone to save.

In God's movie there is a 'good guy' = Jesus
A 'bad guy' = Satan and his angels
someone to save = the church

Then when you watch the movie, everything is set up perfectly. And everyone does choose their roles, but it is 'divinely' nitted.

Sounds cool to me :-P

As far as I know Calvin beleived in so called double predestination. That means some souls(most of them) are predestined for eternal demnation and some(very few) for eternal salvation. I can NOT find this teaching in scriptures. Although it is still a greatest mistery and mirical as how the sinner turns and repents and consequently be born from above by The Holy Spirit, we do know that The Father draws every man to Christ Jesus, and "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6,37 KJV)

Humble,

Romans 9:14-24.

Murray

Hi K_Day, how are you?

I think that something I'm learning about God along the way is that He is sometimes surprising and even shocking. I think too of this passage of scripture where the Apostle writes

..the foolishness of God is wiser than men..

And I think that is something we all risk stumbing at; subjecting that which God has revealed under our own senses and faculties of reason and so forth. I don't mean to say you or anyone else has done it though it is a danger for us all.

I'd like to share something else in response to the first line of this qoute that you gave us, not to offer a defense of any particular doctrine, or to enter any debate, but rather to further make the point above.

The author of the qoute seems to suggest that because God hates sin, He could not secretly will it. But then brother, I think of the Lord Jesus. How precious is He, how lovely, how dear to the heart of God is His own beloved Son, yet was He not predestined to be made sin and for the death of the cross?

I think of the lines of a song by the popular group [i]Selah[/i] which say

God predestined that His Son should die, yet He still created man.

I see in this the same thing as what the author suggests is not possible.

Chris

The majority of people like to say "pre-destined this" or "pre-distened that"........

Firstly: "Was i predestined to be an arminian"?

Secondly: "Did God predestine me to sin"?

Thirdly: "Where Adam and Eve predestined to fall"?

It kind of reminds me of the people who say the "devil this" or the "devil that". You know the folk......

"If you sneeze in some church's you have a demon. Goodnight! They must multiply like frogs them demons."
-Leonard Ravenhill

"You mean to tell me that my God predestined all those babies to be flushed down the john(toilet)? Come on man!"
-Leonard Ravenhill

People usualy quote the first part of this verse......but rarely the second part.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Remember we are predestined to be holy and blameless!! Thats your predestination!

"Love is only love when one has the ability to do the oposite and yet chooses other wise"

God bless yall!

"Love is only love when one has the ability to do the oposite and yet chooses other wise"

WDJD, please explain to me what dictionary that you've been reading. I know that is a common proverb among alot of Christians.

Again I'm not Calvinist, but these are the definations that I saw.

# a strong positive emotion of regard and affection;
# any object of warm affection or devotion;

To say love is 'the ability to choose the opposite' isn't really the defination. The meaning really says 'to desire something more' or 'devotion'.

Just causing you to think a little.
Joshua (Love ya brother)

Quote:

Romans 9:14-24.

Ah, there it is. I know SI has been down this road many times before, but does anyone know how a armenian would explain this mysterious section?

I was wondering when someone will post this reference!! :-?

Is this not the strongest reference to support Calvinism? But this does not answer your question.

I do make this suggestion: God will use anyone, godly or pagan, to fulfill his purpose: no one goes to 'waste'. Most us are aware how persecution effects Christians, e.g. Do we not see here how God uses ungodly people to advance his kingdom? Is this not what he did with Pharoah? My Bible School teacher used to explain that God in his forknowledge knew the decisions man would make and that is why he can hardened his heart even more. Pharoah did it first.

This explanation helped me, but I must admit some of these verses still baffle me because it does not square up with the rest of the scriptures...as I understand it. But that is OK, it will not effect my salvation...perhaps someday the Holy Spirit will give me perfect understanding on this question.

My opinion...
ginnyrose

Ah, there it is. I know SI has been down this road many times before, but does anyone know how a armenian would explain this mysterious section?

I believe the armenian explanation is that he is talking about people groups- Isreal and the Gentiles- not individuals. He is just using Pharaoh as an example.

I believe that is the response most armenians would give.

God does not have to will a person to sin, A person is a born sinner. A man's will is not his own but the devils.. God does not make some one sin, the man does just fine on his own , and needs no help from God in the sinning department.
andy

Quote: " A person is a born sinner. A man's will is not his own but the devils..

Does the same go for the born again son's of God. His will is not his own but God's? What did Jesus Say? John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Even Jesus said He could do nothing of Himself.
John 5:30-31 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Where is our life and our witness that is true?
Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Yes as He is in us and the Father in Him, our witness is true by Him that is in us. Not my witness, but His that is now my life and my faith. Who's Love do we have? Who's Strength do we have? Who's witness do we have? Who life do we Have? Who's Faith do we have. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. So not living our old life, we are justified in Christ by the Faith of Jesus Christ, thus making a believer perfect before God the Father, for it is no longer Our old life we live, but or life is lived by the Faith of the Son of God. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Calvin? Some parts, maybe, some parts not.

New life in a new creature by Christ Jesus:

Phillip

I am a Christian who believes in the soverign grace of God, if that makes me a Calvinist then so be it.

It is truly a miracle that I would forsake my lies, my pride, my drugs, my alcohol, and my pornography to serve a being that I have never physically seen with my eyes.

How did I do this?
Am I brilliant? Am I the smartest man alive?
How did I grasp eternity?

Why am I a Christian and my cousin is not?
Am I smarter than he is? Is he just too dumb to realize that Jesus is alive?
Is he just too stupid to understand that Jesus died for him so that he one day would not be punished for his sin?

I find it hard to believe that I am smarter than he is when I have done all the same things he has done.

Why am I a Christian? I did not desire to serve God, I desired to please myself and only myself.

I am a Christian because of the grace and mercy of God. I was living for myself. It was by grace that I have been saved, not of my works, so that I may never boast!

What is it about 'not by works' don't we understand? We did nothing to earn our salvation. Yes, we had faith...but where did that faith come from?

please forgive my earlier reply for not being clear,
A unconverted man is a child of the devil and his will belongs to the devil.. not untill God rips out the stony heart and puts in a new heart of flesh, that now beats after God and God alone, is he considerd a child of God..
love
andy

Murray,
I was expecting that fingers would be pointed to that passage of the holy scripture. this is probably the best verses to defend Calvin's teachig, though it was maintained long before Calvin by such a remarkable man of God as st.Augustine. Now if any child of God thinks that he has worked with Holy God in saving his soul I'll suggest him to visit a doctor to check his brains. We all sure i assume that there is non righteous, no, not one. And that the heart of man is utterly corupted, and spiritualy dead. It requires the working of the Holy Spirit to make man alive. We all used to be dead in our sins and rebelion against God Allmighty. As for how we are now alive in Christ Jesus we know not, one thing we know, that we were blind and now we see. Amazing grace.
My problem thogh is that the passage quoted Romans 9.14-18 may be interpreted as to be talking about nations since the context suggests. And also as to be talking about individual souls as Calvin's doctrin assumes. My argument is that latter interpretation does not harmonize with many other unambiguous statements of the scriptures like 1st Timothy 2.1-5 and 1st John 2.1-2. Also, these words were spoken by no other but by the Lord Jesus himself:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifetd up:
That whosoever beleiveth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever beleiveth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.(John 3.14-17)

I am sure that all of us know that passage by heart but I love quoting it.
As we can see Jusus explicetly talks about mankind, and not elected few. i by no means imply that the whole world wil be saved as some liberal rubbish affirms(please excuse my language). Calvinists say that Jusus did not shed his blood for every man but only for those thar were predestined for.
As I perceive there are arguments on both sides of the the "debate".

With love and respect,
Levan.

A child is a child of God by the Child of God that is in the child of God.

In the Child of God: Love Phillip

I have not been at SI for very long, and hence have not veiwed a thread taking this route as such.. I don't intend to stir up, but to share what I've learned and help answer any questions.

Humble wrote:

My argument is that latter interpretation does not harmonize with many other unambiguous statements of the scriptures like 1st Timothy 2.1-5 and 1st John 2.1-2. Also, these words were spoken by no other but by the Lord Jesus himself:

1 Timothy 2.1-5
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 .[b]who desires all men to be saved [/b]and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5

The point that a calvinist may make here is that this is God's revealed will. ie. He desires for all men to be saved, But there is something else MORE that he desires.

NOTE: This statement must be held true regardless of Calvinist/armenien theology because God is omnipotent and what ever he desires is within his power to achieve.
It is just that Armenien theology suggests that God desires mankind to have free will more than he desires "all men to be saved".

Does this make sense?? I hope this answer's any concerns.

Love Brother Ashley