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Theology

Original Sin

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RevKerrigan Sep 1, 2006

I have been hearing a lot of things lately going for and against the idea of Original Sin. A little bit on this message board and some on another message board. I would like for the brothers and sisters in Christ to give me Scriptural backing for or against this idea. Please use Scripture only and not your opinion as that is all that matters. God Bless and I look forward to this...

P.S.
Let's keep this thread Godly. No personal attacks on anyone...Ok? :-)

C
ChrisJD Sep 2, 2006

Evening RevKerrigan and all. I'm glad for the opportunity to learn more about this subject.

I do believe the doctrine of [i]original sin[/i] and I thought of these verses in connection with it:

[b][color=000000] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.[/color][/b]

[b][color=999999] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:[/color][/b]

[b]Some observations[/b]

Adam was created in the Image of God.

Seth was born with Adam's image but something happened in between.


Any thoughts?

J
JoeA Sep 2, 2006

I won't give my opinion on this matter, because my opinion is worthless. Let us allow God to do the talking.

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

C
crsschk Sep 2, 2006

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=4634&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Nature of sin - WHAT IS SIN????[/url]

For some reference.

P
philologos Sep 2, 2006

JoeA on 2006/9/2 1:46:58

my opinion is worthless

that would depend on how you got it. ;-) If 'opinions' were worthless this would render most of the forum redundant. :-)

edit: 10:40 2nd Sept
BTW we have 'touched' on this topic before...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9369&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]What is sin?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11300&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Sin and the Sin Nature[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9433&forum=36]The difference between sin and sins[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9297&forum=36]Original Sin. Adam or me?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6325&forum=34]MacArthur on One Nature[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5558&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Adam's Sin[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4634&forum=35]The Nature of Sin[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4634&forum=35]Our sinful nature and the devil[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4634&forum=35]Did all mankind fall with Adam?[/url]

and there are one or two chapters on the topic in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=1&topic_id=1664&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Next Door to Heaven[/url]


..but, by all means, let's talk some more... :-D

W
W_D_J_D Sep 2, 2006

Gday all aussies......and perhaps the poms, kiwi's, yanks and all other anglo-saxon and other gentiles. hahaa.

j/k. Gday to all Gentiles and Jews!

God bless u all!

Thankyou for raising this point.

Firstly i would love to ask the following question in regards to Leonard Ravenhill.

L. Ravenhill once said "I like Finney, you know why? Because he didnt believe in original sin." (exact quote?)

How exactly does Finney differ from the belief in orginal sin?

Why do so many Calvanists hate Finney? (i sought of know why lol)

Why does L. Ravenhill like Finney for this reason?


Thank you! Awating some educational lesson on the issue.

God bless u all. ciao

sermonindex Sep 2, 2006

Revkerrigan, please define for me the "idea" of original sin. What do you mean by it? Then I can give scripture concerning it. Thanks and God bless you for being a full time evangalist!

P
philologos Sep 2, 2006

W_D_J_D on 2006/9/2 12:39:45

L. Ravenhill once said "I like Finney, you know why? Because he didnt believe in original sin." (exact quote?)

Can you tie down this quotation for me? I would like to know the context in which it was said. I must say it surprizes me knowing Ravenhill's UK background. It would not surprize me if Reidhead said it but I would like to know where you heard it.

J
JoeA Sep 2, 2006

Can you tie down this quotation for me? I would like to know the context in which it was said. I must say it surprizes me knowing Ravenhill's UK background. It would not surprize me if Reidhead said it but I would like to know where you heard it.

Did Paris Reidhead not believe in origianl sin?

N
nrambeck Sep 2, 2006

The standard definition of original sin which was first developed by St. Augustine, is the idea that all men inherit the guilt of Adam. This definition of original sin is the fountainhead of Calvinist theology. Without it the Calvinist system of theology falls apart.

Since the idea that children inherit guilt from their fathers is not a commonly held belief in any society, theologians have posited 2 major theories for how this could actually be. One says that all men actually pre-existed in Adam's loins and thus we were actually doing the sinning with Adam. Another says that Adam is legally the federal head of all mankind and therefore all mankind is legally held liable for the sin of their federal head.

Charles Finney was an aggressive activist against this idea of original sin and was very lucid in his objections. Finney was such an avid activist against original sin, because he saw the doctrine as an attack on the justice of God and as a hinderance to the salvation of men.

Finney taught that men sin and rebel against God because they freely choose to. The doctrine of original sin teaches that men sin because they are constrained to by a necessity of their sin nature which they inherited at birth. Finney observed that this idea gave men the opportunity to pass the blame of their own sin and guilt on to their ancient forefather.

Finney held that the Bible and Biblical doctrine must adhere to sound reasoning. Sinners would point out that, if their sinful state and guilt was inherited, then God had no reasonable grounds on which to judge them responsible for their sins.

I have found that the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of Original Sin (besides Calvinists) are sinners who lover their sin. They constantly and fervently insist that their sins are acceptable because "they are only human." Their guilt is appeased because they have been reassured by the Christian community that they are only doing what comes naturally to them.

I believe that the Bible teaches that Adam,s "original sin" did in fact affect the world and the lives of his children. (It is commonly accepted that the sins of fathers invariably affect the lives of their children). But, the Bible is absolutely insistant that GUILT is NEVER inherited or passed from father to son. God holds men responsible for their own sins and NEVER for the sins of their fathers.

The entire 18th chapter of Ezekiel is a rebuke to those that teach otherwise. (Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. )

sermonindex Sep 2, 2006

sorry I can't get this to clear

sermonindex Sep 2, 2006

See next post, Thanks.

sermonindex Sep 2, 2006

Thank you nrambeck for that excellent definition and rebutal.RevKerrigan, as the brother has pointed out Ezekiel 18 is most important. I would like to add that we inherit the "knowledge of good and evil",(the ten commandments written on our heart). We inheit it from Adam and Eve but we do not inherit "their guilt". Then because we are weak we inevitably sin and thus justly deserve condemnation from God. However as we on this site know,"God is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentence" God bless, John

sermonindex Sep 2, 2006

Again sorry for the multiple post something happened with the server

P
philologos Sep 2, 2006

nrambeck on 2006/9/2 18:52:04posted...

I have found that the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of Original Sin (besides Calvinists) are sinners who lover their sin.

This is a disgraceful comment. One of the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of original sin was John Wesley and if you think him a Calvinist you are much mistaken, nor did he 'love his sin'. Try a dose of his sermon on [url=http://gbgm-umc.org/UMHistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-044.stm]Original Sin[/url].

It includes this famous comment where Wesley used the doctrine as a litmus test of Biblical Christianity... "that all who deny this, call it original sin, or by any other title, are but Heathens still, in the fundamental point which differences Heathenism from Christianity. They may, indeed, allow, that men have many vices; that some are born with us; and that, consequently, we are not born altogether so wise or so virtuous as we should be; there being few that will roundly affirm, "We are born with as much propensity to good as to evil, and that every man is, by nature, as virtuous and wise as Adam was at his creation." But here is the shibboleth: Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually?" Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but an Heathen still."

Let me make it clear that I am talking about congenital sin and NOT genital guilt. The two are separable.

P
philologos Sep 2, 2006

thingsabove on 2006/9/2 19:27:02 posted...

Thank you nrambeck for that excellent definition and rebutal.RevKerrigan, as the brother has pointed out Ezekiel 18 is most important. I would like to add that we inherit the "knowledge of good and evil",(the ten commandments written on our heart). We inheit it from Adam and Eve but we do not inherit "their guilt".

Your misunderstanding of the doctrine seems to be tied in to your concept of 'inheritance' as the method of transmission. The method of transmission is understood in different ways by many who hold the fundamental concept of 'Original Sin'. This is the reason I prefer the phrase 'congenital sin' implying that we are born with it but not necessarily by inheriting it.

P
philologos Sep 2, 2006

nrambeck on 2006/9/2 18:52:04 posted...

The standard definition of original sin which was first developed by St. Augustine, is the idea that all men inherit the guilt of Adam. This definition of original sin is the fountainhead of Calvinist theology. Without it the Calvinist system of theology falls apart.

I am no supporter of the Calvinist system but this statement is wildly inaccurate and the doctrine of original sin is much older than Augustine. Tertullian 197-220 AD (Augustine of Hippo was later 354-430 AD) was one of the ante-Nicene fathers. He wrote…
"NOTWITHSTANDING THE DEPRAVITY OF
MAN’S SOUL BY ORIGINAL SIN, THERE IS YET LEFT
A BASIS WHEREON DIVINE GRACE CAN WORK FOR
ITS RECOVERY BY SPIRITUAL REGENERATION
There is, then, besides the evil which supervenes on the soul from the
intervention of the evil spirit, an antecedent, and in a certain sense natural,
evil which arises from its corrupt origin. For, as we have said before, the
corruption of our nature is another nature having a God and father of its
own, namely the author of (that) corruption."

And there are others, but as Tertullian is the best I will leave it at that. Augustine defined the issues much more precisely as a result of his writings against Pelagius, and prescribed 'infant baptism' as its solution! BUt the concept is much older than Augustine.

N
nrambeck Sep 4, 2006

This is a disgraceful comment. One of the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of original sin was John Wesley and if you think him a Calvinist you are much mistaken, nor did he 'love his sin'. Try a dose of his sermon on Original Sin.

Yes, I'm familiar with Wesley's defense of Original Sin. I just disagree with him. Wesley probably had in mind Unitarian/Universalism when writing on this topic, because of their teaching that men are generally good with occasional bad streaks and as generally good are not worthy of the wrath of God.

Finney also fought hard against the Unitarians because he, like Wesley, believed in the universal depravity of men. He taught that men were currupt at their very core because of the motives and intention of their hearts. He simply dismissed the idea of sin nature and original sin, because those ideas assume that sin and guilt are consitutional traits rather than moral traits. Men cannot be held accountable for something that is, of necessity, a part of their nature.

I, of course, didn't say that all who believe in the doctrine of Original Sin are "sinners who love their sin." There are lots of really great Christians that hold to this particular doctrine (yet, I've found that many have never fully considered the idea).

I just wanted to point out that the vast majority of unrepentent sinners, will quickly and ardently excuse their sin as a result of human nature instead of taking responsibility for their free moral choices.

Concerning congenital sin and genital guilt, I believe you may have made a bad reference to terms. Congenital mean "following from reproduction" which would correctly define the standard doctrine of sin nature, that sin is passed via the reproductive process. Genital is just a term that references reproduction. Maybe your could elaborate.

N
nrambeck Sep 4, 2006

I am no supporter of the Calvinist system but this statement is wildly inaccurate and the doctrine of original sin is much older than Augustine. Tertullian 197-220 AD (Augustine of Hippo was later 354-430 AD) was one of the ante-Nicene fathers.

I'll accede your point that others before Augustine held to an idea of original sin. I think it is somewhat dramatic though to call my statement "wildly inaccurate." Augustine is usually the one credited with developing the doctrine because of his debate with Pelagius. Augustine used his political power to have Pelagius declared a heretic, thus codifying Original Sin as undisputable orthodoxy.

Some assert that Augustine defended and developed the doctrine of Original Sin in order to uphold the longstanding tradition of infant baptism. I've never looked at the evidence myself.

P
philologos Sep 4, 2006

Some assert that Augustine defended and developed the doctrine of Original Sin in order to uphold the longstanding tradition of infant baptism. I've never looked at the evidence myself.

!!! in which case is it not a little premature to brand him as you do?

Tertlullian's dates and the way he approaches the topic makes it clear that it was an axiom of Christian belief already. Tertullian did not invent the teaching he is merely commenting on it.

Concerning congenital sin and genital guilt, I believe you may have made a bad reference to terms. Congenital mean "following from reproduction" which would correctly define the standard doctrine of sin nature, that sin is passed via the reproductive process. Genital is just a term that references reproduction. Maybe your could elaborate.
Words change their meanings in ordinary life and a word's derivation is not always an indication of its current use.

congenital |kənˌdʒɛnɪt(ə)l|
adjective (esp. of a disease or physical abnormality) present from birth : a congenital malformation of the heart.

and from an online medical dictionary...congenital

Existing at and usually before, birth, referring to conditions that are present at birth, regardless of their causation.

Origin: L. Congenitus = born together

and from the Cambridge Dictionary...congenital Show phonetics
adjective
1 SPECIALIZED describes a disease or condition that exists at or from birth:
a congenital abnormality/disease

2 describes someone who always shows a particular bad quality:
a congenital liar

and from the onlinr Merriam-Webstercongenital
One entry found for congenital.
Main Entry: con·gen·i·tal
Pronunciation: k&n-'je-n&-t&l, kän-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin congenitus, from com- + genitus, past participle of gignere to bring forth -- more at KIN
1 a : existing at or dating from birth b : constituting an essential characteristic : INHERENT c : acquired during development in the uterus and not through heredity
2 : being such by nature

But I am happy to switch to "Constitutional Sin" if you would prefer. My point is that the term 'heriditary sin' implies physical transmission which is a theological speculution.

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