Corrupt Christian music industry

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mikeness Sep 6, 2006

I am trying to explain to some people that they need to be careful what Christian music that they listen to because not all Christian music brings glory to God. The problem I had in discussing this with them was that this was based on a whole lot of opinion and a slim amount of fact. I am so sure that MOST of the Christian music industry worships money and themselves, thus the problem with my friends listening to it. Recently, I went to a Jars of Clay/ Sarah Groves/ Derrik Webb concert at a gigantic church. We had to pay about 25 dollars to go see them play. I have a problem with the whole paying to listen to "worhippful" music idea. I don't wish to do this to condemn the artists, but I want to dig up the dirt (facts/ sinfulness) on the music industry so that I can help my friends understand the sinfulness within it. Hopefully this would strike a chord of discernment and prayerfulness of the music industry artists. please help me find resources to help in this discussion.

sermonindex Sep 6, 2006

Mike, if you go to www.av1611.org you will find solid facts on the Christian music industry. Quotes from the artist themselves on key points that should concern us all. There are several articles on "christian music" on this site. The article on P.O.D. is very good as well as so much else. There is also an article of testimony from many young christians who started out listening to "Christian" rock and graduated to secular rock very quickly. There is also an artcile by Steve camp calling for a reformation of the music industry. I hope this helps you. God bless, john

C

ChrisJD Sep 6, 2006

Hi mikeness and everyone else. A while back we were blessed at SI to have some godly music added by a fellowship called Christourlife. These brothers put together some beautifull music and made good quality recordings of it available free for all.

I thought it would be edifying to bring it up again here...

~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10021&forum=16&16]~~New Worship Album: "Living Sacrifice" added...[/url]

Peace be with you all in Messiah Jesus.

D

daniel- Sep 6, 2006

I cannot suggest av1611.org on this matter.
False reasoning, many things taken out of context and an arrogant style of writing.
I cant see god in it at all..

but just my 2 cents

sermonindex Sep 6, 2006

Well brother Daniel what sites can you recommend to address the problem of Contemporay Christian Music and the corupt christian music industry?
Also When i read your post I thought to myself o.k. maybe there is false reasoning,etc. So I went and took a look at some of the stuff on the site. I didn't readily see these things.
I am not be sarcastic when I ask this; can you point out 1,2,or 3 examples of false reasoning or things taken out of context? The arrogant writing style may or may not be true. But lets go with the facts and context in hopes of nailing down the accuracy of av1611.org's claims.
God bless , John

sermonindex Sep 6, 2006

I checked out this av1611.org, and particularly the article that was written about P.O.D. that was recommended here. I was personally shocked to hear some of the things that the band has done and said, and some of the artists/bands and their perversions that POD has collaborated with. It made me sick just thinking about it.

Personally, from what I have read so far, I see no unfair bias or false reasoning and am thankful that there is a group like this that is willing to call out groups like POD and inform parents and youth pastors of the truth.

-K DAY

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daniel- Sep 6, 2006

Hi, i didnt want to be harsh or so.
Sorry when i sounded.
The whole problem with that thing is that av1611.org puts their INTERPRETATION of the bible
as truth.

I have no site to suggest, because i don't listen to this music..don't like it, it sounds all the same.

All the interviews and statements on this site with POD, are taken out of context.
You dont know in which context they have been spoken.
I mean, i dont care about that, i dont even like POD.

I mean, i could start a discussion about music in general. Think that is the main problem, that we may have a completeley different view of "music", or "christian music".

this would en up in arguing with each other..
i dont want this.
Please read the "Bible Guidelines for Christian Music"...sorry but i dont know if i should laugh or cry when i read this.

For example the reasoning that "Drums in general are evil"
Its long..i dont want to post all this now.
But to me, its putting something in scripture that is not there.
Sorry...

I've struggled alot with the lord about music...and in the end i have found rest and peace what is appropriate for me.
And im sick of christians fighting at each other because they think some music is evil and the other side fighting back...
Dont we have something better to do?

in love
daniel

[edit:
and its very sad the av1611.org accuses people of doing exactly what jesus called us to do...to go out in world, in the darkest, dirtiest places.
and thats what many bands like pod did, they went out on the dirtiest concerts and lead people to christ. (this is not about pod, its what many bands do)]

sermonindex Sep 6, 2006

O.K. Daniel, I appreciate your post. You were being honest as "you" see it. You say that you are sick of the fighting. You also say you have found rest in the Lord concerning music,"for you".
Now you have the right and are welcome to post what you want. However concerning this issue maybe you should just enjoy your rest and just let others labor over it.

For what it's worth;
The scriptures declare psalms, hymms and spiritual songs. Making melody in the heart.

From the early christian writings AD90-350 the christians have taken a stand against the pagan music and dancing, saying it is not for christians.

Martin luther and other reformers did not tolerate "wordly" music being mixed with the music of the church.

Most of the revivalist would not tolerate it either.

If you take the time to watch a very excellent documentary "HELLS BELLS 2" produced by the former sound man for ACDC you will be amazed.
What is covered in there concerning rock music and drum effect etc. is staggering. To summarize a quote from George Harrison of the Beatles, " We don't care what the parents teach their kids, our music bypass' that teaching and go's to their subconcious, they will follow us" That is a paraphrased quote but the exact words of the quote are very close to what I just wrote.

All musicians know that rythym and beat appeal to the carnal fleshly nature or animal nature etc. Taking rythym and beat and puting a christian tag and a few words does not take that away. Many christians, sense this and though tehy can't explain it they know something is wrong.

For more rules concerning proper melody rythim,Spel?beat see Frank Garlock and also artcicles on www.av1611.org which explain this in better detail than I am able to here.
God bless, John

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daniel- Sep 6, 2006

Hi,

ok, thanks for the warm reply.

You are right, i should others let labor over it.
I disagree with the teachings of av1611.org, thats why i posted.
But i will let this go to the lord.
May he give you guidance.
Its good that you seek the lords will about that.

daniel

sermonindex Sep 6, 2006

Thanks Bro, Thanks for showing me mercy. God bless and see you in future posts! John

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Dougmore Sep 6, 2006

Hi mikeness,

I pulled this article out of the archives of Charityministries.org They are remnant people and well based in Biblical beliefs.

Check it out because they did a good job at exposing the sinfulness in contemporary christian music.

In Christ, Doug

http://www.charityministries.org/theremnant/2005/May/theremnant-May2005-index.cfm

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mikeness Sep 7, 2006

I dont like that sight that you recommended to me. Their arguments are full of knowledge, but I would say bias as well. While I have my own reasons for being skeptical about those artist's music based on their lyrics and the fact that they make a junk load of money, this sight goes so far as to say that many of these artists are affiliated with the occult. They base this on symbols used on the albums' covers. While they may be satanic symbols, the artists may be using them with ignorance of their meaning. If anything they ought to be exhorted for their ignorance of such matters and how ignorance of such things may give and adverse affect; but to go so far as to say that they are a part of the occult is idiotic when it is not coming out of the mouths of the artists and when it is based on assumption. The people on that sight are like news reporters who will use anything to support their opinion whether it is plausible or not.
I speak with peace and not hostility.

sermonindex Sep 7, 2006

mikeness wrote:
I dont like that sight that you recommended to me. Their arguments are full of knowledge, but I would say bias as well. While I have my own reasons for being skeptical about those artist's music based on their lyrics and the fact that they make a junk load of money, this sight goes so far as to say that many of these artists are affiliated with the occult. They base this on symbols used on the albums' covers. While they may be satanic symbols, the artists may be using them with ignorance of their meaning. If anything they ought to be exhorted for their ignorance of such matters and how ignorance of such things may give and adverse affect; but to go so far as to say that they are a part of the occult is idiotic when it is not coming out of the mouths of the artists and when it is based on assumption. The people on that sight are like news reporters who will use anything to support their opinion whether it is plausible or not.
I speak with peace and not hostility.

How do you know that about the people who wrote the article?

Just curious,

Orm

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mikeness Sep 8, 2006

Have you read the article?
From the article
"Without question, the mysterious symbol on Third Day's Come Together album has a bizarre history of occult and satanic influence.

It's worth mentioning the Come Together album is an anthem for an ecumenical, one world, "come together" "love everybody" utopia. The same basic new age-love-mantra put out in the 60s and 70s by The Beatles and John Lennon." They are certainly trying to imply something here. These are mere correlations if anything and this sight is leading us to believe that most of these bands listed are in some way affiliated with the occult. It is gossip. This is how rumors get started, correlations and assumptions somehow become as fact.

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mikeness Sep 8, 2006

Have you read the article?
From the article
"Without question, the mysterious symbol on Third Day's Come Together album has a bizarre history of occult and satanic influence.

It's worth mentioning the Come Together album is an anthem for an ecumenical, one world, "come together" "love everybody" utopia. The same basic new age-love-mantra put out in the 60s and 70s by The Beatles and John Lennon." They are certainly trying to imply something here. These are mere correlations if anything and this sight is leading us to believe that most of these bands listed are in some way affiliated with the occult. It is gossip. This is how rumors get started, correlations and assumptions somehow become as fact. If it were pure fact then it would be a different story. I would not listen to the music and I would discourage others from listening to it as well.

sermonindex Sep 8, 2006

What do you mean by" "these are mere correlations"?
Also Christians can to a lesser or higher degreee have occult influnces in there lives or work and may or may not realize it.
Again I am not saying the site is perfect. However have you found anything on it that you would label as accurate?
What do you think of Steve Camps 107 thesis on a call for reformation in CCM? Lets keep it level and mellow as we discuss this topic. God bless John

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mikeness Sep 10, 2006

I have stated why I don't like the site you directed me to so it is of no use to me. Steven Camp's 107 thesis was great and very inciteful.

I would like to know if their are any specific pieces of evidence on the artists which would be good enough evidence to keep myself and others from listening to them.

sermonindex Sep 10, 2006

Hello mikeness, As far as "specific" that is good enough evidence I would say that depends on your definition of it. Some Evidence that I think is good you don't.
Solution? Well, anything said on that site that seems like it might be good, ex. a quote that an artist said. You could then try to google search on the net to get a bigger context of that quote to confirm if it is accurate.
Also, on that site, hit the links. On the links are other site's concerning music you may want to check. Maybe some of those sites would seem more credible to you.
Another is type into google search word/phrases like, " what's wrong with Christian music " or "problems with christian music". Also type in Frank Garlocks name and see what he has to offer. Depending on the words you type in it will bring u diffrent sites that may have more credible material for you to look at.
There are numerous christian books published about the concerns of "ccm". Some by former artissts or worship leaders.
Lastly Frank Garlock is an older gentleman who has a video series called, "The Language of Music" which I think is very good.
Well I'll stop for now, God bless you, John

C

crsschk Sep 10, 2006

In all fairness ...

~~[url=http://www.charityministries.org]~~http://www.charityministries.org[/url]

This is a very good ministry. Unfortunately that particular article was not. It ended up being tainted with a lot of assumptions and poorly researched facts. Recall it well, have been receiving The Remnant for quite some time. Thought about writing a reply to them in regards to it.

The problem is that for all that might have been accurately stated and was, like many things it ends up going too far with speculations and assumptions and ends up ruining anything that might have spoken to those who would know the truth of their favorite performers. And I am speaking far more towards the secular here, something I am quite familiar with, having been practically a life long rock 'n roller.

It's just often dishonest and nobody is fooled by it. Most fans know their bands quite well and it is a disservice to fill notions in Christians heads that are inaccurate. Mikeness is right, this is amounts to untested and biased gossip, both by the writer and the receiver. Christian gullibility is just as much a lack of Berean testing the scriptures as it is anything else handed down to us.

Surely the writer's intent and motives are not lacking in the onset, it's just poorly researched and often places assumptions above facts. Think there is a post somewhere that developed off all this.

~~[i]~~Edit: The other site mentioned here I would not recommend either, there is a certain angst out there in these self-styled discernment ministries that will distort and dismantle information, furthering this Christian conspiracy theory that seems like it will never just lay down and die. It amount's to just mangled truth.[/i]

sermonindex Sep 10, 2006

We should enjoy all music and not just "christian". I am having a hard time finding good christian music, most of it's loud and abnoxious. I'd rather listen to "tulips from Amsterdam" or "Elizabethan Serenade". Don't get me wrong, I do listen to quite a bit of Christian music, but I am not stuck on that genre only. At one time there was no such a thing as "Christian music", classical music was considered to be just as sacred and still is at least in my circle of reasoning.

But when it comes to worship, music has nothing to do with it. Worship is humility and being contrite, how in the world it has become something else is beyond me.

Karl