A PARABLE ENCOUNTER OF.... ."SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT" !!

This post begins in parable form !!

There were two brothers and the one was charismatic and had been in attendance at a charismatic/pentecostal assembly for some ten years now and rarely missed a meeting....and it came to pass in the due course of time that this man's brother who was a baptist BUT had just recently received the Acts chapter two experience, and was thus persuaded by much urgings from his brother, to attend his charismatic spirit-filled church !!

Now the day was set and the hour had come for the "other" brother to attend the charismatic service - there was an air of anticipation and excitement between the two brothers, and brother no. 2 had insisted on a early arrival and a front row seat and was eager beyond measure to devour all the charismatics had to offer...and so with bated breath brother no 2 entered the building walking past the main foyer, down the long aisle, past the crowded rows, and took up his position on a front row seat.

His eyes being lit-up and fastened upon preacher, he leaned forward through out the service, he took many notes, and was attentive to all the preacher had to SAY.

The preacher got through his sermon and closed in prayer...and then moved off the platform and onto the carpeted "altar" area of the auditorium - meanwhile brother no 2 was more than a little intrigued by this time, as to what would follow next.What happen next was all new to brother no 2 but he would remain "open-minded" and after all he trusted his brother would not lead him into anything "whacky or off-beat" and so he re-assured himself to not be "cynical" and just see how it all... pans out.

The preacher meanwhile began to call out various physical conditions telling those in the audience who had various maladies, headaches, arthritis, knee troubles and hip problems, joint stiffness etc etc to come forward now and receive your healing, the preacher meanwhile waxing bolder in the spirit.... asked for even the hard cases to come forward - meaning those in "wheel chairs" or used walking aides....to come forward, to come forward, BEING the cry that echoed throughout the auditorium microphones that morning - "this is your day" your deliverance has come " have faith" now, "only believe" the preacher re-iterated... time and time again !!

Meanwhile brother no 1. kept looking / and checking to see the awe-struck expressions on his brothers face....who was clearly and visibly "spellbound" by all that was going on.

ONLY FIVE MINUTES HAD PASSED AND THE "ALTAR-CALL" BY THIS TIME HAD SWELLED WITH A LONG LINE OF HOPEFULS,DESPERATELY SEEKING RELIEF FROM THEIR AFFLICTIONS AND CONDITIONS.

Meanwhile the preacher had instructed everyone to fan across the platform area, whilst beckoning the ushers and deacons to "stand behind" the milling crowd.

Well by this time brother no 2 was a little confused and wondering, and motioned to his brother what is this ?? and why were the deacons asked to "stand" behind them ?? being very puzzled by it all.

Oh it's okay brother no 1 replied... relax okay...they are called "catchers" and they simply catch people as they are "falling backwards" this is called being "touched by God" as he "slays people in the spirit" ohh replies his brother - and what happens after that ??

Well usually people lie on the floor for a period of time, and yet others for longer periods of time, ohh i see ( unsure of everything going on around him, but thinking to himself...well this must be what charismatics do - and how healing is performed... and who am i to question God )

Next minute the preacher was going down the "healing-line" and laying hands on all the people "suddenly" SAYING POWER POWER BY A MIRACLE BE HEALED ...POWER POWER.

Bodies were flying through the air, people dropping like flies, meanwhile the cathers were running feverishly to keep up with the " anointed... " preacher's.... many slayings of people...as he went on down - the prayer-line.

Well by this time brother no 1 didn't know wether he should be crying, laughing, or shouting but still he refused to be cynical, albeit he couldn't resist asking in sincerity - whY does the preacher... USE FORCE AND SOMETIMES PUSH PEOPLE OVER, that is to say - THE ONES WHO DON'T SEEM ...TO GO DOWN...AT FIRST ??

His brother slightly annoyed by that question responded by saying - that is when "God operates" on you.....whilst (YOU) are on the floor, it's also called "soaking" and the preacher knowing this - simply does not want anyone to "miss out" on God's blessing !!

Ohh i see - he retorts...and so as things progress....he once again taps his brother on the shoulder and asks, why do they lie "motion-less" on the floor, and for long amounts of time ??

And furthermore it appears as though they are "asleep" my brother - what pray tell is that, and why do they do this thing ??

Ohh that is an easy one to explain brother, God causes a "deep sleep" to fall upon them and it's all in the bible you know, so relax, it happened to Adam in the garden and a deep sleep fell on our father Abraham also - and so it's all there in your bible to read and confirm, and it's what we all DO ( OKAY SO CHILL AND STAY COOL )

Okay THEN he replies ( thinking to himself Wow my eyes have seen strange things today )and being almost afraid to ask anymore questions now for fear- of sounding like THE PROVERBIAL cynic.

All of a sudden in the auditorium a woman out IN the front AREA HAVING BEEN SLAIN BY THE PREACHER AND lying prostrate (on her back) breaks out into a loud shriek and and eerie chilling scream...her body begins to twist, contort, quiver, and shake violently - and seemingly uncontrolably.

Well as you can imagine the newbie to the charismatic experience became just a litle NERVOUS BY THIS AND BEING perplexed, by that commotion, HE once again said to his brother - " and what are those sounds and body spasms " what is going on here TELL ME I WANNA KNOW "pray tell" WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS THING HAPPENING ??

Okay i will explain it - but this is the last question i will answer you - again THIS IS easily explained by scripture " the body twitches are probably ( demons ) coming out of her whilst on God's operating table -and as for the chilling sounds ...they are (the devils) coming out of her.

And this is why we pentecostals "fall backwards" for all the preachers...we do "the pentecostal thing" and GO DOWN !! WE DON'T QUESTION IT - WE SIMPLY go with the flow - AND THE TRANCES, THE DEEP SLEEPS, THE CONTORTIONS AND THE CONVULSIONS ARE ALL PART AND PARCEL OF A "USUAL" CHARISMATIC SERVICE....this is what we do - and this how we effect AND BRING - a deliverance to the people.

Well as you can imagine after that response the "newbie" durst not ask anymore questions - but RATHER FROM NOW just watched in ...SILENCE

Well eventually 3 hours later the service came to a close even though many bodies were still lying motion-less on the floor, other were laughing uncontrolably, wheel-chair bound people asked for assistance to be placed back into their chairs - and yet still others convulsed continously, as he stood up to leave now with his brother - some one caught his eye though at the other end of "the altar" as he seemed to be just " JUST JUMPING " UP AND DOWN IN THE ONE SPOT - OVER AND OVER AGAIN ( that is...NON-STOP )AND ALSO CUTTING AND CHOPPING THE AIR WITH HIS HANDS, AS THOUGH HE WERE SLICING INVISIBLE BREAD !!

Not understanding all these strange happenings he decided to take it all on board and keep it in his heart, after all this is the charismatic experience and i am new - and so who am i to question these few lingering " DOUBTS " i have.

Surely my brother knows best, and it is a "christian church" they sing about Jesus, they sing HOLY HOLY HOLY songs, they open the bible and read from it, the preachers are all friendly and smile....why should i question it - i think iN DUE TIME...I could ACTUALLY get to like this ....I THINK

:-? :-( :-o

bro Sonofthunder
when i received Holy Spirit, i was slain in the spirit both times. some have said that only God's enemies fell backwards. when Holy Spirit fell on me, i fell backwards both times.

i don't believe that all instances of being slain in the spirit are necessarily from God, neither do i believe that some aren't from Him.

People fell out under the power in John Wesley's meetings, Whitefield's meetings, Finney's meetings, Wigglesworth, etc. I feel that the term "slain in the spirit" is a very poor choice for this occurence. I don't know who coined that one, but it was pretty dumb. As a matter of fact, you can read all about the major revivalists of the past and see people falling down under the power of God throughout the centuries, weeping and broken, others unconscious (way before Pentecostalism was even born). Read of John Wesley Redfield. Read of John Smith, and even the Puritan Jonathan Edwards during his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." You want to talk about chaos! Nevermind the fact that people were screaming for mercy, clinging onto the pillars of the gallery. But you see a person fall backwards in a Spirit-filled meeting today and the skeptics go beserk. These are the same people that revere Wesley and Booth and Edwards! What would they think if they'd been to some of those men's meetings? I've read reports of John Wesley preaching to huge crowds where hundreds of sinners would fall down at once as though hit by cannon fire. Same thing with Whitefield. Grown men would have to be carried out services in the middle of McCheyne's sermons, as they would fall to the ground and weep and wail for mercy.

BTW, not all Pentecostal churches are like the one depicted in the parable. This is an unfortunate stereotype, made popular by the modern Charismatic movement. The original, grass-root Pentecostal fellowships were mighty in both the Word of God [i]and[/i] the miraculous. Remember, early Pentecostalism had its birth in holiness Methodist preachers. If you go back to the very early Salvation Army meetings, you'll hear of Spirit manifestations that would blow your mind, (i.e. the Holy Spirit lifting unsaved men off the ground, floating them across the church, and dropping them at the altar). Such things make being "slain in the spirit" seem utterly trite.

Being slain in the spirit is a human invention, there is no mention of it in the bible.

Actually the parable was not meant to cast a "judgement" either way ( not really )

But only to illustrate a lot of how it occurs today.

And ive been around for 25 yrs nearly in christian circles....i think im qualified just a tad as to what is going on out there ( with-out wishing to sound arrogant about it )

Perhaps some of you who are more open-minded and want to analyse " slain in the spirit" more - could i suggest " counterfeit revival" by hank hanegraff

Or "the toronto blessing and slain in the spirit-the telling wonder" is another book out there.

I use to defend slain in the spirit years ago myself ...so i know where some of you are coming from ( alright )

To those who would examine me and the parable...instead of citing John wesley or this person or that "revivalist"....supply scriptural evidence to support people falling backwards and being caught by cathers ( from the word )furnish justification from Holy scripture and i will gladly listen and take note ( okayies ...cool )

Only time will tell when we get to the other side...how much counterfeit and seduction has entered into what we think are conservative or traditional services.

hmmmmmm - be interesting to see that ONE

Blessings IN JESUS !!!!

Wildhorse wrote:
Being slain in the spirit is a human invention, there is no mention of it in the bible.

There is no scriptural basis for pushing people over...inducing them to fall backwards

Laying hands on people ....SUDDENLY

Causing deep sleeps and semi-unconscious states, that are ( man instigated )

Or for some egotistical preacher going down a prayer-line slapping people to the floor !!

What does all that ...Prove - anyway ??

It proves nothing....except as Many good reformed books tells us...it could open you up.....to wrong influences and even Spirits, if your not prudent.

Did you know cults and off-beat sects practise slain-in-spirit ....also

Be careful what you promote

You will be judged for it one day

brethren
as far as i am concerned, what happened with me when Holy Spirit fell on me both times seems to go with the definition (at least as i've seen it presented) of being slain in the spirit. i don't think it is of any consequence whether one falls forward or backward or whatever. if the Spirit of God is at work in someone, what does it matter which way that person fell.some have said only the enemies of God fell backward but then Goliath and Dagon (when the Philistines put him on the Ark of the Covenant) both fell forward.

it is not mentioned how the saints responded to Holy Spirit falling on them in the upper room because i don't think it matters, what does is that when they left from there, God had a hold of them and the world was never the same.

all i know is God's Holy Spirit is upon me and at work in me and through me and i was slain in the spirit as defined here as far as i know.

supply scriptural evidence to support people falling backwards and being caught by cathers ( from the word )furnish justification from Holy scripture and i will gladly listen and take note

Be careful not to major on minors, friend. After 25 years in Christian circles, it seems to me that you should be past all this superficial stuff and on to the deeper things of God. I've read parts of Hank Hanagraaf's book, and also John MacArthur's. These are men I respect, but I have seen them pass judgment on things they obviously have no knowledge of or have experienced. I am totally with you that the Charismatic movement is a joke and a great embarassment to God, but let's not use it to stigmatize the sovereign manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Preachers "pushing people down" is just plain wrong; I don't think anyone here on SI will argue that! But what happens if a person falls down [i]without[/i] some preacher touching them? Is it also wrong, and open for mockery? You would have to write similar parables about all the great revivals down throughout history.

supply scriptural evidence to support people falling backwards and being caught

If you're looking for a word-for-word description, you won't find any. I can just as easily turn the tables on you: Give me scriptural support for altar calls. Give me scriptural support for praise and worship [b]before[/b] the preaching each service. Give me scriptural support for church fund raisers. Give me scriptural support for the sinner's prayer. Give me scriptural support for men standing behind pulpits. Give me scriptural support for telling a sinner "Jesus loves you." Give me scriptural support for the one-man-band pastorate (preacher, teacher, evangelist, prophet all rolled into one) and exercising complete authority over a given congregation. Give me scriptural support for church newsletters and steeple bells. And the list can go on and on and on. Do you see how petty and stupid this is? If you're asking for scriptural evidence for people falling down in the presence of God, I (and any SI brother or sister reading this) can easily provide it.

Now, John said that Jesus did many, many "other" things that weren't recorded. So many, in fact, that the whole world wouldn't be able to contain all the glorious records. This is a tremendous, awe-inspiring statement (and one, I clearly understand, a cult could use to justify its heretical practices). But my point is, could, per chance, one of those things be something that would offend you even more that this nonsensical "slain in the spirit" ditty? Seriously, does the fact that people fell backward or forward really matter? This sounds like a gnat only a Pharisee would try to strain. They fell down as if dead! As far as I'm concerned, if people today aren't being pushed or faking a "courtesy drop", who's to say whether or not they're having a genuine encounter with God? There are people on SI, I am [i]absolutely positive[/i] that have had some "down time" with God. I doubt very much they would yoke themselves with the charismatic movement. Maybe they should post some of their radical experiences with the Holy Spirit on this thread! :-)

Brother Paul

hey im not looking for a spiritual fight okay

I never said geting on your face like Daniel of old is wrong ( okay...so please chill )

These men did it with-out assistance though

Or human intervention

And it is not minor either...this thing has entered into christian circles the world over and is rampant...it caters to ego-driven preachers and is a doorway to counterfeit and to evil influences....so friend you be careful what your -treating as - lightly too

The scripture are basis for what we preach and believe....my friend

Not John wesley or charles finney

All revelation must conform with the word of God

true or false ??

My basis is jesus and peter and paul and not Johnathon edwards or praying Hyde, and i say that respectfully...okay

If it aint in the word, then i don't care if it happened at azuza street or topeka kansas.

And i respect our fathers- don't get me wrong, but charismatics are taking legeitimate manifestations i.e falling on your face and are counterfeiting and perverting, and seducing us, with those self same truths, and that is my concern ( alright ) peace brother

sonofthunder,

Nobody is getting excited or upset. You posted a provocative thing, challenged me, and I countered it, said my peace, gave historical and scriptural evidence, and now I'm through. If you go back and read my posts more carefully, you'll discover that I was in total agreement with you all along on people falling down with the assitance of "pushing preachers".

Thanks for the discussion. God bless you, and I pray Sermon Index will be as much a blessing to you as it is to me!

Paul

To coin a phrase we use in australia

COOL BANANAS

WE AGREE TO AGREE IN MOST INSTANCES

AND YES I HEAR YOUR INITIAL CONCERNS, AND AM FAMILIAR WITH THE MANY PASSAGES WHERE PEOPLE FELL BEFORE GOD IN A PROSTRATE POSITION.

I chose deliberately not to "qualify" my initial posting simply because i sought to address the abuses and the extremity side - to it all.

And was on particular train of thought only - in the direction that i felt God was taking me.

I do realize in some circles it is a sensitive issue to address...and you always run the risk of mis-understandings.

Daniel was a man like Abraham that got on his face before God...but interestingly scripture is careful to point out they fell on the ground with their face "towards the ground" - and that it was not a case where the "falling" would "risk injury"... to their own bodies.

Furthermore they seemed to bow down themselves - rather than just "let go" of themselves and fall in a hard way to the "floor" as you see in some circles today !!

Remember the temptation to Christ ?? satan took him and placed him on steep pinnacle of the temple and tempting in this manner.

Cast yourself down

and

Who will catch him...if he did....satan said it's cool Jesus - the angels are here, and they will catch you...when you "fall" off.

The reply came swift and fast - " get thee hence satan " that is an abuse of God's power and it asks for protection - when i myself am being reckless and careless. ( this is to tempt God )

That is why they enlist the aid of catcher's now to "cover up" what use to be a very dangerous and irresponsible practise, whereby people were falling and getting hurt, people were then sueing preachers for liabilty etc etc and so now as to not lose this "unscriptural practise" altogether -they simply brought in "catcher's" to disguise something that is no where to be found in either Matthew, mark, Luke, or John nor in the book of the acts (of the early apostles) this practise is nowhere to be found. ( not in the manner it is used today at least )

And the fact that they ignore paul's clear instructions to "lay hands on no man....SUDDENLY" shows their sheer contempt for Paul's writings and his - clear cut edict and admonition !!

Thanks for your response and understand you were wanting to protect a legitimate bowing down and prostrating before God

Bring back the "old-fashioned" mourners bench i say, and more power to you...my friend ;-)

Actually not to drag this thing out or be labour the point but i only read today in 1 cor twelve concerning the gifts - that all spiritual gifts are from the one and selfsame spirit.

And if it something from we claim is from God - then it falls under the classification of

" the manifestation of the...spirit"

And furthermore it is for the PROFIT... withal

The question should be is it a "manifestation of God's spirit" and not wether i think it is okay or you do, or your friends support the practise.

And if it is - why is it not then listed among the nine gifts here in 1 cor twelve ??

Secondly the gifts are for the purpose of making others stronger in faith and to "PROFIT ALL" TO profit the body - not just one person who 3 hours later crawls off the floor and goes home.

Gifts are not given to profit the individual... withal- but the body itself to receive edification

Just as prophecy and interpretation of tongues helps, edifies, and fortifies us all in ...Christ

The purpose of any gift is not to strengthen "self" or to focus on "self need" but to build up, strengthen, and edify the ENTIRE assembly.

AND THE "SOURCE" PAUL SAYS IS ALWAYS FROM THE SAME "GIVER" ...AND THE SAME SPIRIT.(FROM ABOVE )

AND WITH-OUT CONFLICT OR CONTRARY HAPPENINGS

The Holy spirit does not oppose his own word and it is clear by JESUS ALSO - THAT THE SCRIPTURES ALSO CANNOT BE BROKEN....THEREFORE God will not go against Nor support things THAT GO outside OF HIS SCRIPTURES.

sonofthunder:
Another Aussie?

Which State? And which football team?

As for the phrase "Cool Bananas"... We seem to be lacking them at the moment remember

Michael

sonofthunder
i thought it was cool beans! maybe we here in america are a little behind as far as aussie lingo goes!? :-P

bro Sonofthunder

Furthermore they seemed to bow down themselves - rather than just "let go" of themselves and fall in a hard way to the "floor" as you see in some circles today !!

i don't think that all people simple "let themselves go" i think those on whom the SPirit falls in that manner do not fall voluntarily but because of the Power of God. i know i wasn't trying to fall down, i just did.

isn't casting yourself down or as the enemy used it to tempt Christ, throw yourself down like jump off? again, i didn't throw myself down and i don't think everyone does this.

also there is nowhere in scripture where when one had hands laid on him a description of what happened to him is written so we have nothing to compare it to.

bro sonofthunder
i've asked this question before and noone has answered it.

you said

The Holy spirit does not oppose his own word and it is clear by JESUS ALSO - THAT THE SCRIPTURES ALSO CANNOT BE BROKEN....THEREFORE God will not go against Nor support things THAT GO outside OF HIS SCRIPTURES.

but then what is it other than contradiction (and God is Sovereign and can do as He wished) is it when God told the Jews what was clean and what was unclean for them to eat (this is scripture) and then God brought down that sheet in front of Peter which had unclean animals and told Peter "kill and eat" Peter refused saying he had never eaten anything unclean and God let him go hungry and told him not to call anything He had made unclean.

we have God on one hand saying this thing is unfit for you to eat and on the other hand ask Peter to eat some of those unclean things. both instructions are scripture yet they contradict (at least as i see it) how do we reconcile that? :-?

also i don't think there is a scriptural precedent of falling forward or backward as a result of receiving the Spirit, in fact outside of the manifestation of gifts, the scripture seems silent as to whether one falls or not. should we not be looking at the fruit instead?

What is slain in the Spirit? Where is it in the bible?

Who wants to keep us in an earthly realm and keep us from our heavenly realm? Who is glorified in being slain in the spirit? It certainly is not God. Why would the Holy Spirit do such a thing? Christ in you is our hope of Glory. Christ is our gift. Ephesians 4:7-8 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave a present gift unto men.

These are not the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor.
This is the gift of salvation, that being Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If the Spirit of God dwell in you, why do we cater to the flesh? This Spirit that is born again in is, is the Spirit of Christ. If the Spirit of Christ is not in you, you are none of His. The Comforter that is given is the Holy Spirit. Christ said specifically He would pray the Father to send The Holy Spirit so all that He had said could be revealed to us. To the Apostles because they could not receive them at that time, because they could not understand them, they would have to be revealed after the Spirit of Christ was born again in them and the Holy Spirit would be in them also, not just with them when Jesus breathed upon them, but by the Holy Spirit Baptized in them, then these things could be revealed and they would understand that Jesus had said to them.

Why would the Holy Spirit put on a show in the flesh of men? He would not. No need. Christ is our gift and every gift is to reveal that Person in the believer for the Body of Christ, it being for His sake not for man's sake, but for the building up of the Body of Christ for His sake in us.

There is only one reason for spiritual gifts. That is to seek Christ and the things above, not the things of this earth. All gifts are for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, not the upbuilding of the pastor or the church member into the things of the spirit of this world. We know who rules that realm as long as he is give permission. Satan has lost the spiritual battle at the Cross and all he can do is lie to us again and try to keep the things of this earth in the forefront of hippocracy in the Church.

Who is the Great Apostle? Who is Born Again in us? That makes us all Apostles in Christ and He that is in us is the only One that do the work of an Apostle unto His Kingdom. Same for Prophets, Teachers, and all the other Gifts, He is the Gifted One and the Holy Spirit is the One that distributes them as He chooses. No Spiritual Gift is of man, but is of Christ the only true Godly Gifted One. Who are we member of? 1 Corinthians 12:11-14 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

There is no distribution of gifts to men. There is a gifted One that is in us, that is Christ Jesus The Living Son of God, The only Person God can trust to build up the Body of Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit Teacher, the distributor of Gifts, is the answered prayer sent by the Father, That is the Person of The Holy Spirit in you by the Mind of Christ that is in you.

In Christ: Phillip

bro Phillip
you said:

That makes us all Apostles in Christ and He that is in us is the only One that do the work of an Apostle unto His Kingdom. Same for Prophets, Teachers, and all the other Gifts, He is the Gifted One and the Holy Spirit is the One that distributes them as He chooses.

i thought Paul said that we were not all apostles/ prophets but each one has a unique function in the body.

That makes us all Apostles in Christ and any believer can be used at any time the Holy Spirit deems it necessary to the furtherance of the Kingdom of God in Christ Jesus. No man is an apostle. He who thinks he is an apostle deceives himself. Because Christ is the only Apostle of God. By the Christ in us if we are believing that Jesus Christ is in us and the Holy Spirit is True and we live by the Faith of the Son of God, then he is as Christ in this world.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

2Cr 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

2 Corinthians 13:4-9 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Can all be apostles in Christ? Yes, if that is what the Holy Spirit wishes at the time. Are all apostles? In Christ, Yes by the Holy Spirit's discernment and use of the The Power of God in Christ Jesus in His time and His choice, not mans'. No man has any gift that is given him as an office in the church or before man. True spiritual gifts are just that, spiritual in the making and spiritual in the using. It is the choice of the Holy Spirit that gives power to the gift that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. We all have all the gifts in Christ who is the Gifted One, not man.

In Christ: Phillip