confused

As i understand the word of god, im saved by grace and grace alone...i dident have anything to do whit it, just gods love and grace , he picked me out before he even made the earth, that i should be saved, now in his word he tells us to go witness.... (i do that) but still his word says not many are going to be saved...and as i understand the bible many are going even to belive they are saved when in fact they are not, but still im going go out there and witness and preach christ...but if god havent chosen them to be saved... it doesent do any good , or does it? i meen jesus says go out to the world... i will obey... but its just if he dident choose them to be saved there is no point in it, i do see that he could have chosen me to be the "deliverer" of the gospel whitch lead the other person to be saved... but i see a little hole here... in meetings the pastors always say god wants everyone to be saved... i know it is there in the bible...but jesus himself said there is not many who will be saved...and it says god chose who should be saved...and often pastors and evangelicals say chose today to be saved...but as i see it we cant really choose anything can we? if im saved its becuse god chose me...and if i have any will in me at all...he put it there... i dont know. i hope you understand my confusion..

can some one point out scripture for me? that will help to understand a little more.

thank you very much
gods peace to you christian

the scripture that comes to me is many are called but few are chosen, God does want everyone to be witnessed too and have an opportunity to recieve him, but he knows in the end who will choose him and who will go thier own way, I mean it says in the word that thier will be a great falling away, even those people who have walked with Christ some will end up giving up on God and walking away from the faith, but only God knows who they are but all we have to worry about is being obediant to what the lord is telling us now, preach the good news, make deciples of all nations, we are here to be a witness of God's love and to teach others about him....we are his ambassador's, you just keep doing what your doing and let God worry about the hearts of man. God Bless :-)

Dear Christian,

I can understand your concerns and I've had similar struggles with these issues and thoughts. In reading through your post I want to respond to some things in particular which I hope wll be helpfull for you.

...but if god havent chosen them to be saved... it doesent do any good , or does it? i meen jesus says go out to the world... i will obey... but its just if he dident choose them to be saved there is no point in it,

I have thought about this myself and something you said here I think is really important for us even though we may not realise it. You said

[b][color=000000]i will obey[/color][/b]

Brother, isn't this enough for us? To obey? Ahh, but I desire to understand many things. My mind came to this passage of scripture where it says of the Lord Jesus

[b] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) [u]to do thy will[/u], O God.[/b]

As I have been grappling with these issues for some time now, another verse has come to mind from time to time, where it says

Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

And I wonder if concerning myself with thoughts of whom God has choosen or not is a [b][color=000000]thing too high for me[/color][/b].

I really haven't gotten any answers about it, except that to know that there is yet a stone in my heart that must be broken and upon it is written

I delight in thy will o God

even that which perplexes me and causes my heart grief.

more...

Also brother, you mentioned this...

and often pastors and evangelicals say chose today to be saved...but as i see it we cant really choose anything can we?

I believe that every effort should be made to appeal to the will of man; not because he of his own is able to respond but rather trusting and being confident that God is working in the will of those who He is calling. Remember too the words of our Lord Jesus where He taught

[color=663366][b]And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.[/color][/b]

Brother, our Lord has given us very simple tasks to involve oursleves with and He has left the truely great matters to Himself, like those that concern [b]the will[/b] and [b]the heart[/b].

He has called us to

herald a message

cast in a net

distribute the bread

and roll away a stone.

As Jonah proclaimed from the belly of the fish

[b]Salvation is of the Lord.[/b]

Peace be with you in Messiah Jesus.

hmmhmm wrote:
if god havent chosen them to be saved... it doesent do any good , or does it?

Just like the Election of the saints; He knows that we will choose or not choose and then elect those who will according to what He knows we will do.

Take for instanc, some one you know very well, my wife for example, Some one offers her two things and I know the choice she has to make. However, I know her so well, I know what she will choose before hand, so I make arangments for her choice that I know she will make.

So, to answer your question, He hasn't chose them because He knows that they will not choose.

The question come to us then, Why will they not choose?
The answer is this with [b][size=large]PRAYER[/size][/b]
[b]Rom 10:14-15[/b] [color=990000]How then, will they be invoking Him in whom they did not believe? But how will they believe on Him of whom they did not hear? But how will they hear apart from one preaching?
[b]:15[/b] But how will they preach unless they be set apart & commissioned? Just as it has been written, "How beautiful are the feet of the ones proclaiming the Gospel of peace, of the ones proclaiming the Gospel of the good things!"[/color] [Isaiah 52:7; Nahum 1:15]

Christian, have you considered going though the Bible and seeing how various eople entered into the kingdom? How many excercised their will in the process? How many entered the kingdom without any excercise of their will - or entered resistantly?

When Jesus said, "Come" to his disciples, did he force any of them? How did they come?

Were there any who resisted God's grace?

Also, you may like to check such themes as: persevere, overcome... and consider how one's will is or is not involved.

Here's a question, According to the Bible, why do some people go to hell?

Just some thoughts to check out.....

Diane

roadsign wrote:
Here's a question, According to the Bible, why do some people go to hell?

The only penalty for sin is death, not hell.
People go to hell for dieing in the state in which the die.

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things(Jam 2:26).
It is also a Process that involves corruption or decay(Psa 16:10, Psa 49:9)

Adam died spiritually when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He was separated form the true fellowship with God.

Now, death can't bring forth life, so whoever is born of Adam is still spiritually dead. This is why we need to be born again, born of the Spirit.

If one does not recieve eternal life, he remains spiritualy dead
What is Life?
In the Bible, life always pictured as a relaitionship with God [b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]
It is also a process that involves growth and repair(Psalm 1:3).
If one does not have these attributes, how can one not sin and and therefore die being spiritualy dead, and in turn go to hell?

I borrowed some of this from my post in "Origonal Sin" because I know it is relevant to this thread.

No one goes to hell because of there sins, but only for rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection; with this comes eternal life.

Hey, Logic, you sure are a fast one! I had posted the question to Christian - as a way to get him thinking for himself.

It's one thing to get answers from someone who has already done the thinking, but entirely another thing to endure the tough slugging of finding them for yourself. Second hand beliefs don't hold up too well in the long run.

Anyway, I give you a gold star for your answer. It took a long before I could SEE that - I mean, really SEE that. I guess I was too dependent on second-hand teachings.

Diane

This is not a direct answer to your question but it certainly clarifies some of what is contained therein.

Watchman Nee on "Prayer"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=18611

Christian, do let us know how your search is going, and if the confusion is clearing up. You have asked a great question and I trust are on the path towards great answers.

Diane

i havent come to an end of this yet..but im thinking of...that god some how is sorting the belivers from the fake ones... he sorts they who "left all" and those who cling on to the world... he sort good from bad fruit.... and i belive he does that right here right now... and the choise we have is simple.... pick up our cross...lay down our will...follow him do his will, no matter the consecuense, he picked out a people since we are so infected and misereble in sin... he cleansed us, he made us, he did all for us... now we spend our entire life to give glory and obey him in even the smallest thing, no matter suffering or offering or what people might say, and in doing this thing even thou he knows who will recive him and not...he sorts out they who obey him...and they who dont, right now today...

jesus said....its going to be hard... many will try... and over and over i read struggle... its going to be tough.. but its worth it! even if i get killed, then they just solved my problem :) im dead and free from sin and home whit my master...

why god made it this way i dont know.. but he did ..and i want to follow.... i know there is many more things to it than this...but this is a start..
christian

but still if god chose me? how could i resist him? i would never chose that...but if god decided me to be saved... what could i have done against almighty gods decision? i cansee its only becuse his holy love and grace that he chose me... but did i actually have a choise?

there is my dilemma... it doesent really mattrer...but im saved and i think if one is born of god...one stays that way...as i understand scripture...but people say decide...take a decision now! but if god already have made that desicion......
ill go think some more :)

christian

hmmhmm wrote:
i havent come to an end of this yet..but im thinking of...that god some how is sorting the belivers from the fake ones... he sorts they who "left all" and those who cling on to the world... he sort good from bad fruit

but still if god chose me? how could i resist him? i would never chose that...but if god decided me to be saved... what could i have done against almighty gods decision? i cansee its only becuse his holy love and grace that he chose me... but did i actually have a choise?

[b]Mathew 20:16[/b] [color=990000]So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.[/color]

Why are "few" chosen?
Because He knows that they will not come because they were not persuaded.

Notice, even Judas who betrayed Jesus was called.

[b]Mathew 22:11[/b] [color=990000]And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
[b]:12[/b] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
[b]:13[/b] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[b]:14[/b] For many are called, but few are chosen.[/color]
This man was called but he was not persuaded to ware the wedding garment

This pretty much sums it up.

Romans 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In Christ: Phillip

Christian, I really like your thoughts here. They speak of the cost of following Christ – and that you can’t have the best of both worlds. I’m going to challenge just one thought (at the end)

that god some how is sorting the belivers from the fake ones... he sorts they who "left all" and those who cling on to the world... he sort good from bad fruit.... and i belive he does that right here right now... and the choise we have is simple.... pick up our cross...lay down our will...follow him do his will, no matter the consecuense, he picked out a people since we are so infected and misereble in sin... he cleansed us, he made us, he did all for us... now we spend our entire life to give glory and obey him in even the smallest thing, no matter suffering or offering or what people might say, and in doing this thing even thou he knows who will recive him and not...he sorts out they who obey him...and they who dont, right now today..

Christian, I see in scripture that the great separation out occurs at the very end, not now. “Let them both grow until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds…… ” Matt 13:30 Even Jesus refused to judge while he was on earth, because it wasn’t time. “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world…. “Jn 3:17 Of course, that wouldn’t mean that God doesn’t already foreknow the end results. What do you think?

but did i actually have a choise?

...but people say decide...take a decision now….

You can’t decide what path to take when you’re in the dark, when you can’t even see the paths. And it takes divine enlightenment to “get it”. (We need God for that.)

Well, Christian, that’s the way I have come to see it right now. I know that there is a lot I do not understand about God and his ways.

What do you think?

Diane

well i think there is a point there
quote

Christian, I see in scripture that the great separation out occurs at the very end, not now. “Let them both grow until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds…… ” Matt 13:30 Even Jesus refused to judge while he was on earth, because it wasn’t time. “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world…. “Jn 3:17 Of course, that wouldn’t mean that God doesn’t already foreknow the end results. What do you think?

i understand we mature and grow... and i do think he knows the result...
and of course i remember "deciding" to follow him...or rather i just gave up and as a last "hope" trowed myself upon christ as savior..i dident really know what christianity was about..i really dident know what jesus did here. As i see my choise then was either belive in this jesus...or well the only thing i had left here was death... i choose christ i dident have any expectations really... but i know from the location where i "accepted him" to my home whitch is about a seven min walk... i know the man who entered in at home wasent the same man who left, i decided to belive in him... i see that.

but i dont know... what i meen by today now...right now..is about following every day... i know so many "christians" who for example smoke ciggaretes... ive asked them do you think thats ok? they have responded that they await the holy ghost to convict them first... i really dident know what to awnser them...but if we know what do decide shouldent we make that decision right here right now today? i know he will separete all one day... but isent there a separation right now? trials and tests? to see whos dening self and following him? who are willing? who will pick up the cross? what about the figtree? when jesus says every tree that dosent bear fruit will be cast into the fire? or when he gives it one more year...maybe i misunderstand... so dosent christ then separate those who dident bear fruit? now?

christian

this give me some "deeper" understanding

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christian I really enjoyed reading your testimony. Thank you for sharing that. That helps me know what your thinking about, and I realize that I wasn’t quite with your drift.

we make that decision right here right now today?

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion." 2 Cor. 9:7 This verse makes sense to me if I apply it to everything I do (after all, my entire life is an offering to God).

In other words, my responses are to be the result of MY will ( my "want-to"), not the will of another force upon us – be it natural (others) or supernatural (spirits)

I have come to believe that God never forces himself upon my will, or anyone’s will. Do you think that is true?

Is God not pleased when we make a godly choice because we WANT TO.

Diane

i do belive that...or i belive that if i should want to continue in sin... for example if i were to chose to continue to lust for women or continue to take drugs or whatever that i know is wrong...i dont think god "forces" himself upon me... but (correct me if im wrong) isent there some passege where it says god left them to thier sins? what i meen if i choose to continue to live in sin, i know its sin...i know god dosent like it...as i understand he hates it. then he lets me go to my sins if i chóse my sins?

this is geting deep now for me,i have so many thoughts i dont know now :) i have do think some pray some read some... then write some

christian

i belive that if i should want to continue in sin... for example if i were to chose to continue to lust for women or continue to take drugs or whatever that i know is wrong...i dont think god "forces" himself upon me... but (correct me if im wrong) isent there some passege where it says god left them to thier sins?

"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts..."

….Which is exactly what they want! In other words, God further hardens sinners by letting them have what they want - so that they can face the ultimate consequences for their own choices . (Think of the Prodigal Son Parable)

We all know: if you continue to do drugs, obvious consequences await you. If you fool around sexually, you can’t assume immunity from a variety of consequences. If you continue to overeat, you get fat, that that includes all the consequences: heart disease, etc. If you insist on worrying, you ruin your body and mind eventually. ….. You don’t have to be a Christian to know that!

Sadly, a lot of professing Christians think that because they are saved, they have special divine protection from consequences. Of course, you know that is nonsense!

Yet God’s mercy has spared many of natural consequences, including death. I know of some who should have had STDs when they were rebellious teens, but God’s mercy seemed to overrule many times. They sure didn’t deserve it.

For some reason God spares sinners in order to give them plenty time to repent. Each day is a merciful gift. After all,"He is not willing that any should perish".

The point: God’s mercy is a precious gift, not to be assumed. What an awesome God we have!

Am I on the same wave-length as you, Christian?

this is geting deep now for me,