school grades plummet after prayer removed.

Haven't read or heard of the book until now.

Even without the book, the outcome would have been inevitable.

The schools have eroded and so has the nation.

Once you introduce evolution, kick prayer out, and the bible, what have you got left? Only satan. And he is using all that is available to him to destroy as many as he can whilst he has the time.

It's no excuse for prayerlessness in the home and the church. It's not that we don't know, it's just that we don't do it.

As we all know, the prayer meeting, if there is one, is the least attended meeting in the church.

As it is, a Christian mother, in Germany, has been arrested for homeschooling her 12 children.

That's war. The enemy is saying, if I cant't 'educate' them, then you won't either.

That's all the schools are, satan's boot camps.

All I can say is pray. If God can't help us, who will? God bless.

Here's a thought to consider:

Was the public government-run education system ever God's means of building his kingdom?

Diane

Here is a quote by Martin Luther.

'I am much afraid that the schools will prove to be the great gates to Hell unless they diligently labour in explaining the Scriptures, engraving them in the hearts of youth.

I advise no one to place his child where the scriptures do not reign paramount. Every institution in which men are not increasingly occupied with the Word of God, must become corrupt'.

Was he wrong?

It tells us in the book of Acts that Paul reasoned daily in the school of Tyrannus. I don't believe children were taught there, but this did continue for two years.

Still, scripture tells us in Dueteronomy that parents are supposed to teach their children diligently, about the things of God.

If they don't who will? God bless.

roadsign wrote:
Here's a thought to consider:

Was the public government-run education system ever God's means of building his kingdom?

Diane

The answer. No. God raised up the CHURCH to build His kingdom. This is what the Great Commission is all about.

Hi, I'm new... :-)

Quote Enid,
"That's all the schools are, satan's boot camps.
All I can say is pray. If God can't help us, who will? "

Sadly but true, and [i]HE[/i] will, parents (homeschoolers or public schoolers ) must simply bring the kids to know, obey and honor HIM diligently and faithfully at home. Never place your trust in any teachers completely.

[b]1 Samuel 2:30
"... but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed."[/b]

As for grades, the system has always managed to dumb down the tests to boost the grades back up. This has become a trend.

sincerely,
(ex-public schooling and homeschooling mother,
praise GOD, God has been raising my kids in fearing HIM still...they're in their 20S now.

God "was" blessing America's school children academicaly and morally.because of the prayer.

Does this mean that if Christians convince the government to put the Lord's Prayer back in all the schools, God will bless America again. (We all know what God thinks of vain repetitions.)

I suspect that the social/moral decline has far deeper roots. The withdrawal of prayer is just one of many symptoms.

Diane

Quote Diane,

"I think this is a faulty assumption. It assumes that the recitation of the Lord's Prayer had special power to win divine favor.
This assumption could lead to faulty conclusions. Ex: If we lobby our government to demand the the Lord's Prayer in all our schools, then God will bless America.
We all know what God thinks of vain repetitions.
The social/moral decline has far deeper roots, I feel. The withdrawal of prayer is just one of many symptoms."

I tend to agree with Diane here. Ultimately, faith and all that pertains to faith is quite individual, each parent is accountable to the Lord with each child. Praying a 'sample/collective' prayer with non-Christians may avail to not much.

On the other hand, the blatant and overt display of contempt of God when the system root God out ( as if they could ) is no small offense in HIS sight, I'm sure.

The correlation between grades and prayers, in my mind, is nil. Grades go down because kids are not working hard (generally speaking)!! Even if true Christian kids pray incessantly, that will not warrant good grades if they don't study! :)

Hi everyone.

Diane, in regards to the notion that God blessed America's school children in relation to prayer(in school), you asked,

Does this mean that if Christians convince the government to put the Lord's Prayer back in all the schools, God will bless America again. (We all know what God thinks of vain repetitions.)

I was reading this portion of Scripture tonight on the way home and I think there is something for us to consider. I don't want to include the whole passage because it is too long so I encourage you all to read the chapter(12) for context. I can see in this a spiritual application for the people of God today but I'll leave that for you all to decide. From the book of Jeremiah

[b]And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The Lord liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people. But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the Lord.[/b]

Maybe we could ask this question from a different point of view? Perhaps we could ask "if this nation's government attempts to honor God by allowing prayer and Bible reading back in schools, will God then honor it by working in the hearts of its people?"

I would think that, if nothing else, it would foster a much more peacable environemnt in the schools than exists now!! Would it hurt to have the Ten Commandments displayed in public schools?

Also, I remember seeing David Barton talk about these statistics on a TV program. Am looking his site over for something about it now.

Chris

Morales plummeted as well not just grades!

This is the way I see it:

Trying to make everybody Christian-like, and make Christian-like rules for our society seems to have worked for a long time. We thought we were on track, and we were proud. However, we were not on track. We were living a form of third-century Christianity. And we couldn't see the fall-out for a long time - maybe two generations, maybe more. I don't know.

Putting the 10 commanments on the wall, having religious ceremonies (ex prayer) making stiffer laws, putting "JUST SAY NO" billboards up, having special programs may help a tiny bit, but in the long run, the slide will continue. None of that can change the core nature of man.

As for the solution: I believe that the same ancient solution would apply today as was promised by the ancient prophets. It is not about changing form or practise, but accepting God's solution: God himself changing the heart of man.

It is for each of us personally to accept God's radical calling to us. That's the best way we can touch our fallen world - change within ourselves.

I don't want to sound like I know it all. I admit God took years to get though my thick skull that I do not need my society to be more Christian-like in order to follow my Lord obediently.

Ultimately, faith and all that pertains to faith is quite individual,

I can pray whenever I wish to - not when the school, church or whoever says to do it. And so can everybody else. Not even the most oppressive government can stop that.

Diane

Do you forget that God rains on the unrighteous as well as the righteous? Also these were children, can he not answer them to show his faithfulness to them?

What are you implying? (Sorry, I’m slow) I don’t think you are implying that reciting a Christian prayer from an unbelieving heart is more righteous than saying no prayer at all - although God could use it to bring conviction.

What makes me very sad is when non-believers are leading in faith-based exercises. Their cynical attitudes show through, and kids know it. They get the idea that this “mythological stuff is not real”, or has no power. I wonder if it’s safer that teachers don’t touch something sacred than when they handle it and destroy it.

I remember back when we were still reciting the prayer in highschool. The far stronger message of the day was humanistic: God is dead. It was never said in words, of course, but I could “smell it” all over the place.

I guess you could say the same thing about our religious practises in churches – lots of forms of godliness without its power. It’ all such a deadly inoculation against the real thing.

I suspect that in atheistic countries like China and Russia, more authentic prayer rises up to God than in countries that are trying to preserve some remnant of Christian-like culture.

Diane

Something against the grain here...

I find the 'anti-earthly' kingdom crowd are leading me in circles. Obviously it is always right to remember that God's kingdom is not a government institution with a national flag. True enough, but some Christians seem all to eager to see all influences of past Christianity on our present civilization removed. Their premise is that 'cultural Christianity obscures true Christianity and therefore confuses the masses. Some zealously desire to be that Christian living in a completely faith-hostile culture such as is found in a communist or Islamic state. The logic is that diamonds sparkle best aginst the blackness..and false diamonds will have their hypocrasy persecuted out of them.

This sentiment for authentic Christianty is understandable. In America there is an astonishing array of appallingly deformed expressions of the Gospel: gaudy money loving faith preachers on television, shallow yuppy religous love songs on the radio, spineless post-modern churches seeking cultural friendship, and liberal textually-critical divinity schools/seminaries trying to rewrite scripture line by line.

As an American watching too many Yankee Christians cultivate zealous vitriol towards any type of established Christian culture, I fear we are embracing a naive and romantic attitude about the 'glory' of removing Christian influences on culture and even state persecution. Culture is unavoidable to the Christian like ocean is unavoidable to a fish. Christians nodes are connected to the array. Even the Amish, who practice cultural isolation and avoidance, have left a most profund mark on this nation. So connection to culture is not even in question...the question is will this be a connection of submission or dominance in relation to other cultural influences.

Inspite of my desire to impress you with my other-worldy spirituality...for my children's sake I prefer a culture where Christianity is the dominant influence. I only wish that this influence be achieved through authentic transformation of hearts, and renewal of minds...not simply through political hijacking. I sincerely believe that, although early church fathers endured persecution and anti-Christian governments, they did not desire these things like some restless Americans seem to express. I don't believe Ceasar represented 'anti-Christ' simply because he was the head of state...I believe Ceasar represented anti-Christ because he lived as an anti-Christ practicing anti-Christianity. I think this obvious point is lost on some of us who seem to think any Christian bloke who influences earthly civilization is somehow worldly and no longer heavenly.

Perhaps my difficulty is simply a lack of imagination on my part. It may be that, inspite of disgust for parts of my own culture I have not seen a suitable alternative, at least from the hand of man. I look around the world and I see the options...Islamic global conquering of faith, European atrophy of faith, the persistant communist militant opression of faith...even when I look back in history, from jungle tribalism to imperial monarchs, I remain pursuaded that a Christian iteration of culture, whether in the form of jungle tribalism or imperial monarchy, while often far from perfect, is on the whole preferable. It feels selfish to not want to influence my own culture for the benefit of my children.

Here I insert the urgent disclaimer that there is much to repent for in this present civilization. I treasure and appreciate the message of repentance for this nation as expressed by many excellent contemporary preachers. Yet, there are two things to recognize awhen we ask a civilization to repent: one, that we must believe there is an entity called 'civilization' and two, that this entity is capable of repentence. Consider that by simply caring about our culture and civilization, you no longer can claim that all cultural Christianity is wrong...by even thinking to ask a nation to repent you have become the nucleus of the next generation of cultural Christianity. The only way for your personal relationship with Christ to not have a cultural manifestation is for you to hide your lamp under a bushel.

I am a part of the culture I live in...my influence, however small, in unavoidable. We may be seated in heavenly places, but we are still living in earthly places. So, try as hard as I might to find agreement with all of the posters here at SI, I can not reach a place of contempt for Cultural Christianity held by some, inspite of my watchful mistrust of it. To paraphrase GK Chesterfield..."A civilization with Christian influence is the most corrupt kind of civilization there is---except for all those other kinds without it."

MC

Compton, your thoughts bring balance to my somewhat boxed-in perceptions:

I fear we are embracing a naive and romantic attitude about the 'glory' of removing Christian influences on culture

Consider that by simply caring about our culture and civilization, you no longer can claim that all cultural Christianity is wrong..

.by even thinking to ask a nation to repent you have become the nucleus of the next generation of cultural Christianity.

I remain persuaded that a Christian iteration of culture, whether in the form of jungle tribalism or imperial monarchy, while often far from perfect, is on the whole preferable.

"A civilization with Christian influence is the most corrupt kind of civilization there is---except for all those other kinds without it."

edit: (not quite)

I guess we don't want to be like the zealous reformers who slashed art work, and got rid of anything they feared could become an idol. A lot of that magnificent work might have been appreciated as a reminder of God's glory on mankind.

.. and then there is the remnant of social morality that is carried over from Christian roots..

Diane

That's all the schools are, satan's boot camps

Enid, yeah, looking back, this was not the most edifying words to the readers, nor really fair. :)

As in the world, God's remnants are everywhere. I was very impressed by a few Godly teachers out there who helped my kids along in the early years.

I do understand the well intention that came with the post though.

mamaluk

Amen, Compton! You said it very well!

One thing he said and bears repeating: if you remove religion - and in this case Christianity- from the previling culture, it leaves a vacuum and something else will fill it! That is why you have the rise of new age humanism, the occult, etc. To suggest this Christianity as lived by the school's administration is ideal/perfect is not what is even remotely suggested.

Would y'all rather our government be like some are in which parents are not allowed to educate their children as they deem fit? This will happen once all vestiges of Christianity are removed from the public square. It is happening and may well soon happen here unless something radical happens. Check out this site:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40332 This type of thing does not happen overnight: it is gradual, like the removing of any semblance of Christianity or its practices from public institutions. After they have succeeded in this, the churches will be next. It is already happening...or are we like the proverbial frog who unknowingly is being boiled to death, and does not know it?

Another point to consider: since the school teachers may not be walking with God and their acts are only superficial, at best, would you all suggest the children not go through the form of prayer until they have consciencely accepted Jesus as their Saviour?

Another point: to suggest that the teaching of morals and expecting the non-christian to adhere to them as being useless, is faulty at best. Do you not know that for every sin you did not commit while away from God will mean there is one less sin to repent of? Sin enslaves, always. If you have never indulged in certain sins it will mean one less bondage to deal with once you come to the LORD. My preacher-grandfather used to say how he would give his right arm to not have committed some sins before he came to the LORD!
(EDIT: I removed a sentence which I later thought might be to combative.)

ginnyrose