Re discussion about CCM

V

Valadar Sep 16, 2006

Hi to all my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Its been a while. I am finding this post very interesting and very enlightening to read. I personally do not think anymore that you can give God glory through music mixed with the world because in doing that you are offering something unclean to the Lord. I believe the worship we offer God must be set apart from the world. I used to believe that it didn't matter what "christain music" a christian listened to, because God looks on the heart and not on the outside. Until a fellow brother of mine named Gavin told me about the dangers of offering the Lord such music. He told me as it says in Genesis that every seed yields after its own kind. If this is true then music that was concieved in rebellion such as rock cannot be acceptable to the Lord, because of his holiness. Also he pointed out in the Word when Ahab(I think) and another priest can remember his name) offered strange fire before the Lord and the Lord caused the earth to swollow them. Now to me this is pretty clean that if we offer such music before the Lord that he will not accept in because of the holiness of His character. Though I do believe the Lord grants mercy and grace to those who worship him in an ignorant manner. But I do not believe anymore, that he accepts it.

Also I did my own study into this and found out some interesting facts, did you know that the melody is supposed to complement the lyrics?above all else, whatever the music/worship offered to the Lord, should bring out the truth of His Glorious Charater in all respects.
(His Holiness, His grace, His lovliness

Blessings to you all in Christ
Craig
:-D

D

Dougmore Sep 16, 2006

Hi bro Craig,

I agree with your post and must say that I left CCM not to long ago. To be honest, a cappella has to be the most balanced, (melody/lyrics) than any other form of music. I highly recommend it.

www.alterofpraise.com has some really good artists on there.

bro Doug

sermonindex Sep 19, 2006

The language of the rock beat music is, "Do what you want to do."

sermonindex Sep 19, 2006

All types of music are used by the world, so what 'genre' shall we call it should be used in church then?

You have really opened a can of worms, a can that has been opened too many times I think, and never concluded.

X

xMicahx Sep 19, 2006

It's hard. What do we use in church? Some churches use the hymns and can truely worship. I've seen others that do and it's so dry; people just sing the words while their hearts and minds are somewhere else. On the other hand a lot of contemporary services seem to be more free in worship, some allow people to dance before their Lord, sit in awe of His holiness. But, they can appeal more to the flesh...then again so can hymns.

I once heard a quote and I'm reluctant to mention it because I cant remember the person or the exact quote but in essence the man was criticizing the worldy worship music used in church. The only catch was, this man made his statement hundreds of years ago refuting the very same hymns we hold dearly to as holy, anointed, and godly worship.

There is really good, doctrinally correct ccm music out there, and not all our hymns we sing are correct anyway. Take "away in the manger" for instance, "no crying He makes?" Where in the Bible does it say Jesus never cried as an infant? I know He cried durring His ministry though.

Psalm 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psa 98:5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
Psa 98:7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together

I dont know...I just want to worship my Lord and Savior because He is worthy to be worshiped. He is worthy to recieve Glory, and i'm going to try my hardest not to get stuck in a rut. I'm not going to let someone cheapen the already dirty rags i have to offer Him in worship. It's not much but its all I have, and when my heart is there for the right reasons and i'm caught up in His presence, I know He delights in it; no matter what earthly words i use or music I play...David played the music of his times and the Lord delighted in it.

J

Jacob19 Sep 20, 2006

You are right in saying that sometimes hymns are kind of dry, depending on if the spirit comes or not. The reason that modern worship is hardly ever dry is because it is so full of emotionalism, the guitar solos, the keyboards, and so on. We are to worship in SPIRIT and in truth. Most of our worship today is in SOUL and sometimes truth. Also I agree with Keith Daniel when he says "Entertainment in the house of God is SIN!"

X

xMicahx Sep 20, 2006

Yeah, but I think worship should be emotional- just like prayer. When I am worshiping in spirit and in truth and I have that connection with God...When I get that glimpse of His holiness and I see my current state, I will get emotional. And yes, when I'm leading worship, I can appeal to everyone's emotions with the music. I could probably put most of them on their knees or get them jumping, but I won't make the worship happen. I don't think the question should be about the type of music or the instruments. I mean, God can take the worst things and make them good. He changes us from glory to glory, that's His heart. The question is, are you going to worship in spirit and in truth for all God deserves or are you going to judge in your own heart and miss an opportunity to worship God. If we miss even a minute...it's gone, that chance to adore Jesus, wasted. Let God judge. I think as long as we worship to the level of our spiritual maturity, glorify God the best we can, and have a heart like David's...It'll be ok. I promise, the Kingdom of God will not fall if a ccm song is used to worship.

sermonindex Sep 20, 2006

Quote:

'Yeah, but I think worship should be emotional- just like prayer.'

Careful, now. It is all too easy to get caught up in the moment and the emotion of it all. You can feel happy during worship without having met with God. I did it for years.

I enjoyed the music, sang loud and proud but that was the problem - i enjoyed the music. I never met with God. Until I focused on the words.

I always think that you want spiritual happiness and joy, not emotional happiness and joy. I think that they are two seperate things.

X

xMicahx Sep 20, 2006

I totally agree, one can worship the emotion not the Lord. But when I look at examples of worship in the Bible they seem to be emotional. I'm not saying everyone has to be emotional all the time because that's how the Spirit flows, but if that's where the Lord takes you I bet its ok.

R

roaringlamb Sep 20, 2006

Two of the bigger problems I see with the CCM groups are
1) The majority of them claim they are evangelizing the masses with their music. But GOD has ordained that the "preaching" of the Gospel be the means of it getting out(Rom 10). So if this is the case can we use music to win souls? or should we use the money spent on these concerts to enable men and women to preach full-time?
2) The vast majority of CCM labels are now owned by major secular labels. Thus they market, and pander to wordly wisdom to sell a product. So whatever happened to not being unequally yoked together with unbelievers?
I see very little fruit from alot of these "festivals". For they seem just like the secular versions. Mosh pits should not be involved with anything labeled Christian. :-)
Let us hold the CCM bands up to this Scripture and see how they stand
~~[b]~~"Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. "[/b]

D

daniel- Sep 20, 2006

Mosh pits should not be involved with anything labeled Christian.

why is that?

R

roaringlamb Sep 20, 2006

~~[b]~~Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. [/b]

Do you think that beating upon each other is brotherly affection? I suppose if the Spirit has not convicted you about this then carry on. Many though do not even ask GOD if this is proper behaviour for those naming Christ.
The scriptures do also admonish us to "avoid every appearance of evil". What would you think if you saw a group of youth in a pit? Would you say "my what godly kids", I would like to follow their God.

M

Majorpancake Sep 21, 2006

"Entertainment in the house of God is SIN!"
i just wanted to say this is completely false.

Everything about church, prayer and worship is entertaining to my heart. Because i delight myself in God.

P

PaulWest Sep 21, 2006

Everything about church, prayer and worship is entertaining to my heart.

"Entertainment is the devil's substitute for joy."
Leonard Ravenhill

I think I understand what you're trying to say: God delights your heart, and brings joy to your spirit. Yes! This is true! However, we musn't confuse joy and the delight of the Holy Spirit with entertainment. Entertainment is a different creature altogether, cheap and superficial...soulish. Entertainment is but surface deep, induced by the fleshly thrills of the world.

Webster's New World College Dictionary defines the concept of "entertainment" as such:

~~[b]~~Entertainer -[/b] a person who entertains; esp., a popular singer, dancer, comedian, etc.

~~[b]~~Entertaining -[/b] interesting and pleasurable, diverting; amusing

~~[b]~~Entertainment -[/b] something that entertains, interesting, diverting, or amusing thing; esp., a show or performance

I don't know about you, but this about perfectly sums up the apostate church here in North America! The Holy Spirit is ~~[i]~~not[/i] an entertainer. True worship is ~~[i]~~not[/i] a performance. The Jews did not go to Shiloh to be entertained. Solomon did not build the temple to be a house of amusement. Entertainment is a most erroneous word when relating to the things of God.

Holy reverence, unspeakable joy, rapturous praise, and fear and trembling I think are more suitable choices! The reason the church sees the Christian experience as 'entertainment' is because the fear of the Lord and the concept of His eternal majesty have all but vanished.

Brother Paul

M

mamaluk Sep 21, 2006

Amen, PaulWest

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him ~~[b]~~MUST[/b] worship him ~~[b]~~in spirit and in truth.[/b]

Colossians 3:16
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace ~~[b]~~in your hearts to the Lord.[/b]..

In our hearts, to the Lord, not at somebody !

D

daniel- Sep 21, 2006

Do you think that beating upon each other is brotherly affection? I suppose if the Spirit has not convicted you about this then carry on. Many though do not even ask GOD if this is proper behaviour for those naming Christ.

I understand your point.
But i don't agree. It's always difficult to argue about those things.
As i posted in another thread i've struggled a long time with god about those things, music in general and so on.
And i've come finally to my peace and I know it is from god.
And you know what i believe?
You can praise god in the pit.
Propably you'll say im crazy or gone astray, but thats ok :)

Do you know the Jesus Freaks?
God used them to show me something.
The Jesus freaks are...very freaky.
Their outward appereance is surely not what most people here would call proper.
They are so totally different people.
And I really judged this in my heart.
But i saw their passion for christ, they may not be in line with your "standart" but they burn for Jesus.
They reach the drug addicts, the freaks, the people who are in the pit.
It's marvelous what happens there.
God gently rebuked me through these people.
I still not agree with some things they do, but they have passion for Jesus and they really impact the world of the "freaks".

just my 2 cents, maybe i have gone a littl bit off topic, sorry for that.

sermonindex Sep 21, 2006

Look at the root and you will understand the fruit.

Mosh pits originated not in the church but in the rebelliousness of the secular concert scene.

We recently had a concert on our base and there was a mosh pit. Three soldiers had to go to the hospital and there were several more with sprains and minor injuries. This is the fruit of the mosh pit. There is a little more that happens in mosh pits that I will not go into.

Love not the world nor the things in the world.

It's not hard to see fleshly means vs spiritual means. It becomes blurred when we reason from a worldy perspective first then try and bend the spirit into it. I have made this error several times as a christian and I always must correct my reasoning. Always reason from the Spirit and the scriptures first.

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things..." 1 cor 2:15 God bless, John

sermonindex Sep 21, 2006

The moderator has posted a new thread from A.W. Tozer "Glamor instead of Glory". The spirit of the devotional applies to this topic as well.
God bless,John

sermonindex Sep 21, 2006

There are many problems with CCM today. It mostly has to do with money, fame, and greed.

But while we all sit here and try to decide what kind of music is acceptable for a believer to listen to, lets remember that all thru history church music was influenced by the music of the culture.

There is a true story of a church where the members were so upset that contemporary instrumentation had been introduced into their church that they hauled the instrument out of the building and dumped it in a river. When was this? A long long time ago... and the instrument was an ORGAN.

Let's also not forget that many of some of you folks who have contributed to this thread, as well as other threads on this topic, praise Keith Green for his no compromising stand for Jesus Christ. Keith Green has been condemned by some in the church because most of his music was ROCK MUSIC.

Am I saying every CCM artist is right on? Absolutely not. The CCM industry is corrupt, and has been for a long long time. Thats why for several decades now Larry Norman has been releasing CD's without any record company at all. People like him refuse to be a part of an industry.

I am not taking a stand for CCM, please dont misunderstand me. But I know many people who do play in bands, etc... and they are some of the most solid Christians I know.

It is not right to put a blanket condemnation on music as an art form. I challenge anyone reading this to tell me their favorite artist... and I will find someone on the internet that has written against that artist for performing music that is too contemporary. I've read pieces that claimed that George Beverly Shea was too contemporary!

These types of discussions go around and around with no apparent conclusion because no one can back up their claims with scripture. If they do, it usually has something to do with not being like the world. Fine, that verse is correct. But in the context y'all will use it, you then must join an Amish community.

Here's a good scripture to think about when you wish to say that the use of contemporary music to evangelize and minister is not of God:

~~[i]~~1 Co. 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: ~~[b]~~I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.[/b] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."[/i]

Krispy

sermonindex Sep 21, 2006

These convo's go round and round with no apparent conclusion cuz no one can back up what they say with scripture.

First, while not every single person will agree the convo must be had for many reasons.
One reason is because alot and I mean alot of christians have a hard time excepting the current ccm invasion into the church. So naturally it must be addressed and talked about.

Second the guidelines in scripture for music are psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, Thats in Ephesians. Also make melody in your heart. Now I suggest anyone who cares simply look in a Strongs concordence or on an online bible program. Type in melody in the KJV and you will get some scriptures.Also look up the one from ephesians and do cross refrence from there. You will get a solid scriptural picture of worship and music and instruments. It's there just do the look up.

Keith Green initialy gave up his music then struggled and picked it back up. Keith was young and still had alot to learn,( like all of us).
Regardless of keith's fire and zeal he was not completly correct about rock music in the church.
And for what it's worth if he could see today what the ccm root has produced he would be shocked and probably get out the axe and start cutting at the root. what I have wrote about Keith will offend some but it is not my intent.Alos some may think Keith would be o.k. with it. I' don't really want to argue about Keith Green.

The claims of hymns to beer tunes and etc. are not accurate. The research is out there to show this is a misrepresentation.

"All things to all men" is an abused scripture. Like Peter said, men misunderstand what Paul said and bascially get in trouble. I've seen christians use this for justification of hitting the bar for a beer or two cuz then his work buddies will be more apt to listen to him. Christian are mutilating there bodies with peercings and tattoo's and using the same scripture.They forget that they are UNDERLAW TO CHRIST.

Look it's the old conform, compromise, appease the world and then maybe they will listen mentality. Often this starts in the christian mind with the best of intentions., but it ends up falling short. It's the "let's show the world we christians can do almost all things unbeilevers can and yet they got Jesus so hey give Jesus a chance.

Lastly, I know that there are sincere christian ccm's I belive they love the Lord. But I also know several who have seen ccm for what it is and have gotten out of it and back to psalms hymns and spiritual songs. There is a very good book that came out just a few years ago on the subject. I don't remember the name but I will get it.

In the previous ccm thread I strongly suggested Frank Garlocks , "The Language of Music"videos Also Hells Bells 2 video . from apologeticsgroup.com

Off I go for now. Lord bless as we continue to sharpen one another, John