Judge Roy Moore, one of Gods brave men.

sermonindex Sep 20, 2006

I'm sure many of you remember the battle for the Ten commandments monument and Judge Roy Moores involvement. For those who missed it I highly recommend you get the dvd "Law of the Land".
In this dvd Roy Moore explains in detail the proper view of Gods Law in our society.

Nutshell conclusion: it's seperation of church and state but not seperation of God from government. This is very important to understand.

Also please read the attached article concering the navy chaplain. I think you will find it very enlightning. God bless, john

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52051

sermonindex Sep 22, 2006

my brother,
Freedom is messy, freedom doesn't always look like we want it to look, and freedom, as described in the constitution, takes in ALL, accounts for all citizens. Some citizens of the U.S. worship Christ, the Messiah, some worship Allah, others Buddha, others don't believe in God at all, and the day that we mandate a civic religion, a nationalistic 'christian' hybrid, is the day we begin the long dark slide into a theocracy, which will devolve into a religious tryanny.

I cannot convey how strongly in the Spirit I feel about this.

No offense intended, but I have always thought that Judge Roy Moore was wrong in his insistence that IN ALABAMA, they erect a monument to the Ten Commandments, as it smacked to me, as idolatry, nationalistic idolatry.

Jesus gave us two commandments to follow, and they should be burned onto and into the heart of every follower of His, not fought in a court OF MAN, to erect an idol to worship as part of a civic religion. I say this in meekness.

Let the statues be of Caesar, of Lincoln and Washington, and of the war dead, the Wall in the DC, the monument to those who served in Korea, you don't take the Holy Things of God and make a "pole" of them.

Israel had a theocracy way back when, look how it devolved, look how it was destroyed. islam has a theocracy now, in Iran, look at the depravity of it, the barreness, the hatred, the dark defiled speech of its leaders.

You see it every day, every car bomb, every shaheed, done in the name of allah, the blood, the body parts, the children ripped apart, and the last words of these "brave men of allah" is "god is great!"

WOE!!

If one marries the governments of this fallen world, with the Body of Christ, that is the "abomination that causes desolation", I see this more clearly than I have ever seen anything in my life.

That is why I have always had a problem with Judge Roy Moores, principled, yet wrong headed stand on erecting an idol.

I send my thoughts and my prayers and my love to you in that far off frontier, may God shield you and protect you and the other boys and girls in Iraq, and I pray that you don't misconstrue what I just wrote you.

lovingly in Jesus', bartle

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

The monument was not meant to mandate a civic religion but rather to remind and teach that our laws are based upon God's laws. All around the monument was were quotes from founding fathers etc. affirming this.

I don't see how you can say this is an Idol. An idol is primarily something that is worship and called upon.

Saying that we mandate a civic religion will begin the slide towards tyranny/theocracy is not necessarly the result.

Not acknowleding God, removing him and themention of him from public life is your road to tyranny. I respectfully say you have it backwards.

I hope we can continue to work this thread. I think this is a healthy and necessary discussion.
God bless, John

I

IRONMAN Sep 23, 2006

bro Thingsabove

I don't see how you can say this is an Idol. An idol is primarily something that is worship and called upon.

an idol is something, anything that takes precedence over God in our lives. i remember when the whole drama about this started and in seeking our Lord on it, i learned something. if we want to have such monuments then that is well and good, but what good is it if the laws of God are not written on our hearts? People raised a big stink over this but i wonder how many of them had these laws written on their own hearts. to me that is the bigger issue. when we get upset over such, have we expended the same amount of resource in seeing God bring to fruition His glory in us? i'll tell you straight up, i don't care if they get rid of every monument, 10 commandments or whatever, if it is not written on our hearts it doesn't matter, God's not going to be looking for any monument but rather what is on our hearts.

Saying that we mandate a civic religion will begin the slide towards tyranny/theocracy is not necessarly the result.

what nation has had a theocracy which has ever been free from tyranny? although democracy itself is going to fail a proper theocracy without tyranny will only come during the 1000 yr reign of Christ.

Not acknowleding God, removing him and themention of him from public life is your road to tyranny. I respectfully say you have it backwards.

This is true also, the fact is that any sort of government on this side will ultimately fail, theocracy or not (save for the one Christ will establish) God is the only sure governer who can't be bribed or otherwise be moved to do anything than what is right.

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

Saying that we mandate a civic religion will begin the slide towards tyranny/theocracy is not necessarly the result.

History shows otherwise.

Jesus was very specific in His condemnation of the outward displays of hearchial theocratic rule, the Pharisee's,the Sanhedrin which I would venture to say were the theocracy lite of Israel during the Pax Romana, and Jesus piled it on, saying how their public CIVIC displays of religion were just show, their prayers were public and flowery, they cherished the postions and power that theocratical rule gave them, the limited power the romans allowed, they devoured widows house, they had a deal set up with Corban, whereas a young man could snake out of the Godly requirement of caring for parents, AND I believe they led the nation into disaster by encouraging the zealots, envoking the ire of Rome and the destruction of the Temple. Barrabas was a guerilla leader. It's bad business.

When people say to me, "God's been taken out of public life", that happened eons ago. What do most people do in the evenings?

watch television and most of that is mind-numbingly cruel callow and worshipful of money and riches, its just garbage. But lets say we get together and say, "we're followers of Jesus and we don't want that filth broadcast over the airways and I want to start by banning "American Idol"......people would scream! Advertisers would scream, "oh the money lost", "our freedoms taken away because Godly people are righteously incensed about out filth pouring over the airwaves!!"

Do you see? freedom is messy, and there's a lot of stuff out there that a believer would find offensive. i think "American Idol" is filth, all the rest of that stuff, the poker tournaments, the world wide world of wrestling , or whatever its called, its all filth, and I say we get rid of it.

Is that freedom, is that America?

Jesus is power under, not power over, the Ten Commandments, or Two, as Jesus said, are emblazoned on our hearts, not marble. as far the founding fathers, I don't even want to go there this second as i have been reading too many accounts of African slaves tortured and raped during the period 1720 to 1865, and most of the founding fathers kept slaves, all the while writing high and mighty words of freedom. Thats hurts so bad, coz I realize what a tragically flawed foundation we built on.

Nothing personal, what Judge Roy Moore did was politics, plain and simple. here you have a judge from Alabama, the state that brought you, George Wallace, Bull Connor and only God knows how many lynched black men, pandering to a very specific demographic by "fighting the good fight" to "acknowledge" God.

If Judge Roy Moore of Alabama wanted to acknowledge God, he would have found the nastiest dirtiest black streetperson, in that square and asked, "sir, In Jesus Name I would like to wash your feet, cause I love you as He loves you".

Now THAT would have made news, coz it would be a display of power under, Jesus,and not power over, which is politics.

I could write so much more on this but I'm tired.

God bless you, keep your kevlar on, bartle

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

Firts I will reply that the "Primary" way that God is acknowledged and his spirit has the greatest inpact on society is through revival! A simple example would be that often in a true complete revival bars and the like shutdown. Not becuase the christians outlawed them that day but rather nobody showed up! That is always the best way when people are alive to God they don't want bars, Godless tv, criminality and all the rest.
Then afterword there will possibly be passed new laws that would reflect the rightousness.

Bartle have you read Light and the Glory and Sea to shining sea" by Peter Marshall. This and other material helps to balance out the founding fathers were all a bunch of hypocrites claim.

Also Ironman and Bartle have you watched the roy moore video?? "Law of the Land"

You said it freedom is messy and the maintaining of that freedom, WHICH IS ESTABLISHED IN LAW,is sometimes messy and controversial.

Does the fruit of rebellion against God not move you to tears? When you look around at all the decadence and destroyed lives are you not moved to say something? Oh I'm sure you are to a degree as am I. But we find our counrty in it's current state because we have forgotten our God who "establishes nations".

I have to go for now. God bless, John

I

IRONMAN Sep 23, 2006

haven't watched the video, is it on youtube or can you get me a wmv of it?

like i said bro, my thing is that if the laws aren't on our hearts, it really makes no difference if we build the biggest baddest/best monument ever. without some sort of display of these things in our lives, no lives can be touched.

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

To find the video go to www.visionforum.com then in the "search" box type in "law of the land" it wil then take you there the vhs or dvd is available.

Also www.moralaw.org is roy moore website

God bless, John

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

Another amazing thing is the amount of scripture that Roy Moore has memorized and quotes during this teaching. Truly impressive and inspiring

B

boomatt Sep 23, 2006

Thingsabove,

Roy Moore is an incredible man of God. We need to stand up to the liberals trying to change every law around to fit thier Theology i.e. Abortion, gay marriage, no christian monumnents. Well, to change all of our countries displays of our Christian heritage, then we will have to change most of the monuments in Washington. Our country was founded upon hard working Christian men, God blessed us because of our hard work, and our dedication to his word.

K

KingJimmy Sep 23, 2006

While I am glad that judge Moore wanted to do what he did, the judge is acting as a fool. While I disagree with the courts ultimate decision to keep the Ten Commandments from being displayed as a sort of memorial in the court house, the judge should learn to submit to those over him in the Lord, namely, the state of Alabama.

Nowhere is it said that the judge, in order to uphold what he viewed as his duty to do, must erect a large stone monument of the Ten Commandments to do such. Once the higher courts ruled on this matter, he should have conformed to the higher courts decision, otherwise, legally he is obligated to. One might argue, "Better to obey God than man!" But where do the Scriptures say that in order to obey God in this matter, that the judge had to erect a huge stone monument dedicated to the Ten Commandments?

B

boomatt Sep 23, 2006

Roy Moore was not breaking the law. There is no law about forbidding having the 10 commandments displayed, that is why he refused to take them down.

There is so many hypocrites in our government, they might as well knock down the capital, supreme court building etc. because they all have christian imagry on it.

We need to stop letting the liberals take over the country and try to rewrite laws.

Why is it that nobody has a problem with christian imagry, until aboriton is legalized, gay marriage is pushing forth in our courts and our property is taken from us for no reason.

Our law of the land is the constitution, that is what we need to obey, and our government.

We need to stop letting our government take control of our daily lives, or soon, they will have complete control over our society.

one last question: Do you think that our forefathers will let these new laws such as abortion, gay marriage and the seizing of private citizens property, NO, they would most likely start a revolution.

How far is too far with taking of our morals.

K

KingJimmy Sep 23, 2006

I agree that it was ok for Moore to do what he did, but a higher court interpreted the law so as to say he was not right in doing what he did. And for him to persist as he did even after that ruling was wrong.

K

KingJimmy Sep 23, 2006

Also, a thought: Why does Christ gain by displaying the Ten Commandments at a court house? Remember, we are not under the Old Covenant, but under a New Covenant.

I

IRONMAN Sep 23, 2006

bro thingsabove
thanks for the links, i'll check them out asap.

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

Kingjimmy you have legitament poits/questions.
Other than what I and others have already said. The judge who presided over the case said that it really boiled down to can the state acknowledge God. And he said it cannot.

Kingjimmy have you watched the dvd "Law of the Land? If you haven't please try and watch it. Roy explains all this and quotes the judge's reasoning etc. it will really shed nore light on the whole issue; WHICH IS CAN THE STATE ACKNOWLEDGE GOD?

God bless, john

I

IRONMAN Sep 23, 2006

bro Boomatt

Roy Moore is an incredible man of God. We need to stand up to the liberals trying to change every law around to fit thier Theology i.e. Abortion, gay marriage, no christian monumnents.

it's no accident you said that the liberals are the ones who need standing up to but nonetheless it is in error. the enemy is the one at work in the background using republican and democrat alike to his own end. now if we look at the issue as a liberal/conservative issue, we lose sight of God's perspective (which is the only one which matters) and when we do, we're in deep trouble. see if we fight this on a superficial level we will always fight and never win. by the way i'm neither republican or democrat, both sometimes claim God as on their side, God is on His own side. i'm not conservative or liberal coz God is neither, HE is HOly. we would do well to get on His side and become HOly.

Well, to change all of our countries displays of our Christian heritage, then we will have to change most of the monuments in Washington.

then let them be changed. if the laws of God are not onour hearts, they do us no good if they are written everywhere else. look at what became of Israel even though they did everything by the book God said these people honour me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me.

Our country was founded upon hard working Christian men, God blessed us because of our hard work, and our dedication to his word.

God establishes and casts down nations per His will. i look at all the very wealthy heathen nations of old which were more powerful and wealthy than our own such as Rome, Alexander's Greece etc, all heathen empires with no idea who God was. How come they enjoyed all that? God gives and takes as He pleases as He is no respecter of persons. God does not necesarily bless in response to hard work, sometimes we receive things which were simply don't deserve like salvation. God does all things to glorify Himself.

I

IRONMAN Sep 23, 2006

bro Matt

Roy Moore was not breaking the law. There is no law about forbidding having the 10 commandments displayed, that is why he refused to take them down.

Neither is there a law in scrpiture or otherwise requiring such displays.

There is so many hypocrites in our government, they might as well knock down the capital, supreme court building etc. because they all have christian imagry on it.

Christian immagery like what? Much of the Architecture in government builtings is of Greco-Roman influence, both were pagan empires...i don't think it a good thing for a so-called Christian nation to have such celebrations of heathen empires so prominantly displayed...When did Christians start having such immagery? where was it when the original apostles were here? it was nowhere to be found! it came about centures later due to the influence of pagans in the Roman empire and beyond. What do we need images for if the early Church didn't need them? If we have come to a place where we need images of any kind to bolster/declare our faith then God help us because we are lost! We have lost all wonder of Him. Don't the heavens display His handiwork for us anymore? Are His invisible attributes not displayed in the things which we see that He has made in creation?

We need to stop letting the liberals take over the country and try to rewrite laws.

Satan has already seen to that by using liberal and conservative alike over the years hence you have members of both parties doing all manner of shady things.

Why is it that nobody has a problem with christian imagry, until aboriton is legalized, gay marriage is pushing forth in our courts and our property is taken from us for no reason.

not sure what you're trying to get across in the first part about Christian immagery. On the issue of property, the word says the earth is Yaweh's in the fulness thereof so we don't own anything, we're stewards. If we find ourselves stroing up treasures here, then we will be disappointed so let us take Christ's advice and store up riches in heaven. if we lose eveything here, it is not because God wasn't looking...

one last question: Do you think that our forefathers will let these new laws such as abortion, gay marriage and the seizing of private citizens property, NO, they would most likely start a revolution.

i don't know and it doesn't matter because they are not here to act.at any rate the founding father had their own demons they were dealing with, many had slaves and that continued on throughout many presidencies along with the extermination/marginalization of the American indian.

How far is too far with taking of our morals.

When we come to the point where we realize that it's not about us we'll be in good shape. we're not there yet. it's all about God's plan for His glorification through His Church and until we see it from that lofty perspective as opposed to liberal/conservative or democrat/republican (both of which are superficial) we will keep spinning our wheels and get nowhere.

God help us indeed!

C

ChrisJD Sep 23, 2006

Hi everyone. There are some points here where I think we are all failing to connect with each other on, perhaps for different reasons.

I think we all agree that a real ~~[i]~~Christian Theocracy[/i] is not desireable ~~[b]~~as a matter of earthly politics[/b]. Yet, doesn't one already exist? Jesus said

~~[b]~~[color=660033]The ~~[u]~~kingdom of God[/u] cometh not with observation...[/color][/b]

~~[b]~~[color=660033] ...for, behold, the ~~[u]~~kingdom of God[/u] is within you.[/color][/b]

God is, right now, ruling from the throne of the hearts and minds of men and women all over the globe. Hallelujah!

BUT,

what amazes me is that we could ~~[b]~~seem[/b] to be against taking ~~[u]~~every opportunity[/u] to make use of ~~[b]~~every honorable and worthy means[/b] of extending the influence, power, glory and honour of God and our Savior in all the earth?? incuding political means.

I want to ask us, what first principles did our Lord instruct us on when He taught us to pray? Did He not say

~~[b]~~[color=660033]Thy kingdom come.[/color][/b]~~[b]~~

[color=660033]Thy will be done [/color][/b]~~[b]~~

[color=660033]in earth,[/color][/b]~~[b]~~

[color=660033]as it is in heaven.[/color][/b]

If then you say to me that politics is not an honorable and worthy means of advancing His kingdom then I shall ask you, why:

is it becuse we have abandoned it to the sewer of this life? And are we now surprised then, that, ~~[i]~~it stinketh[/i]?

I dont understand this! Did not the Apostle ask them of Corinth

~~[b]~~[color=000000] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?[/color][/b]

~~[b]~~[color=000000]Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?[/color][/b]

~~[b]~~[color=000000]Know ye not that we shall judge angels?[/color][/b]

~~[b]~~[color=000000]how much more things that pertain to this life?[/color][/b]

I do not think I take these verses out of context, for I appeal to their principle: can we not then judge things which pertain to this life?

The scripture says that rulers are ~~[i]~~the ministers of God[/i]. What then, are the ungodly and heathen more preferrable in this office than the elect of God, whom He has choosen?

If you then say to me that our Governemnt in the US is not from above then I will recall to you the confession of John the Baptist when he said

A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

If then, we who are called by His name, have, in the providence of God been given so blessed and gracious freedoms and privileges of worship and expression and self-governance as a people whose members are yet upon the earth, what can be said of us if we neglect them? Are we to abandon them because of what we fear might happen if we were to fully use them? Is that our profession of faith, that we feared to do what was right becuase of what might be done wrong? Ohh brothers and sisters, I think of the words of the steward that said

~~[b]~~[color=000000]...Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.[/color][/b]

Lastly brothers and sisters, I would like to share with you some words that I found attributed to Charles Finney. I think there are some things here for us to consider:

...God cannot sustain this free and blessed country, which we love and pray for, unless the Church will take right ground. Politics are part of a religion in such a country as this, and Christians must do their duty to the country as a part of their duty to God. . . . [God] will bless or curse this nation, according to the course [Christians] take [in politics].

I too share concerns about the dangers of this also. I just can not see neglecting, as Finney puts it, 'our duty', becuase of them.

What do you say beloved? Is such within our bounds?

sermonindex Sep 23, 2006

you wrote:

Our country was founded upon hard working Christian men, God blessed us because of our hard work, and our dedication to his word.

I'm going to try and say this as gently as I can:

our country was founded by men who built fortunes on the backs of African slaves, who were stolen from their homeland, brought here on horrific sea journies, treated like animals, and worked raped and beaten to death.

Have you forgotten the millions of slaves who labored to build this country's fortune?.....and I might add, most of the white men in the colonial days who labored were NOT God fearing men, but coarse, unprincipled men whose god was gold. Just read the "The Life of Brainerd" first published in 1749, still in print.

Now, who do you think were the first ones to speak out, and act against the abominable sin of slavery? Born again, on fire, Spirit filled pastors and Christian workers, BOTH white and black working together to defeat this hellish slavocracy, they worked quietly and non-violently to funnel slaves to CANADA, so the "least of these" could breathe the sweet air of freedom, coz it certainly wasn't available here, and it wouldn't be until God had to soak the ground of this nation with the blood of the dead of the Civil War.

Now, you live in a city where countless men died to defend or defeat slavocracy, and you write that "God blessed us because of our hard work"...to which I say God blessed us DESPITE our sin, and our murder and our oppression of the African slave.

Brother, I'm not trying to get personal, or ugly on this matter, but don't white southerners, ESPECIALLY those who follow Jesus see the need for national repentance, or is everything just going to be whitewashed over with sentimental imagery and rhetoric of "hard working Christian men" in divine labor to create a (God forbid) a "christian nation"?

I'm not making excuses for blacks, but don't you think the fact that families, African slave families would be sold and seperated apart, play into this whole soul sickness of young black men fathering children and not sticking around to be a father to a child? Do you really believe that a whole community that had horror and holcaust visited upon them can heal completely in 141 years?

and does that heart cry of mine make me a "liberal"? Was Reverend John Rankin and Reverend Josiah Henson and Harriet Tubman "liberals"? All these I mentioned were national heroes that rescued over 5,000 slaves from the wicked bonds of slavery and they did it in the Name of Jesus.

Hear me now, one of the key's to national revival
is racial reconciliation, and would to God that some of you white southern boys, who are followers of Jesus recognize this fact, on Sunday, cross the color line and worship in a black church, and in your heart beg forgiveness from Jesus for the sins of your forefathers, and maybe go up to a black worshipper and say, I ask your forgiveness that my forefathers enslaved yours.

That would be of more import to God than any judge hyperventilating over a column of marble.

I've always wondered where Judge Roy Moore's heart was when Dr King and the Montgomery Improvement asscoiation began their boycott of the Montgomery Bus system to desegregate this depraved southern institution of segregation, where was his heart? With Dr. King?

only God knows.

bartle