"Babble"

I understand the struggle to find a church that supports your beliefs or doctrine is hard to find. The Church today seems to be consumed with prosperity messages and body flailing parties.

The problem I have with your problem is that there needs to be a change in the church. What I mean is, you shouldn't go to another church just because you disagree with certain doctrinal issues. There will always be disagreements between Christians on doctrine and other issues. So, I would say, try to change the church yourself. Do something instead of complaining.
My family has complained about a small church they used to go to in my hometown. They complained that there wasn't a childrens church or that there wasn't enough people their age with kids.
What I have said to them and I say to you is, do something to change what needs to be changed. If there needs to be a childrens ministry then start one. If you want more married couples with children in the church invite them.

Do something about the church by being The Church. As christians we need to stop ignoring the problems that confront us and do something about them.
It sounds as if you have a problem with the Pastor of that church, have you gone to him/her with your grievance? I know it may not be possible but if you really have a heart to see the church changed then you will do what needs to be done.
Wanting the church to be different and genuine, as it seems you do, is a great thing and I applaud you for doing it. To broach this subject as you have shows that you care for the well being of The Church. It is comforting to know that such Christians are more and more abundant.
-Be blessed in Christ. :-D

Good stuff right there I totally agree. Lets band together (reguardless of "small" doctrinal differences) with unified hearts AS the church to CHANGE the church. My doctrinal beleifs probably differ from most here, but I think the one thing we ALL agree on is the church (for the most part) is NOT where it needs to be! Lets put feet to our prayers for the church to change. Jesus is king.

There's a time to stick it out with a church, but there's also a time to leave.

When I was saved, I got involved in a small presbyterian church. It was great! Good fellowship, others my age... You know, all the small stuff.

Well, to set up my story, I hadn't been saved for very long before a couple of Jehova's Witnesses had come by my door and wanted to do a Bible Study with me. Well, I knew enough to be cautious, but invited them in. We got to a point where they insisted that Jesus wasn't really God, as I had been taught.

Well, I took this point back to my youth group to ask where the Bible says Jesus is God. And not a single person could point out scripture that showed why. A few weeks later, our youth group was ready to move into a new study topic, where I brought up the fact that we obviously needed some in-depth study on certain doctrinal issues. Bottom line was that I was shut down. One other person agreed with me. And through that even, along with some others, I left for a while.

Well, a while later I did return to that church for a Sunday. I'll never forget the sermon. It was on Galatians 5:1-10, but focused on 5:1. Using the NIV, the pastor gave the bottom line of that passage to mean that "above all else, even holiness, when an unbeliever looks at the church, he should see that you're free to do whatever you want in Christ."

I haven't been back since.

Now, you're right that you'll never find a "perfect" church. I have disagreements on occasion with the church I visit now. But on the same hand, while I wouldn't ever question the salvation of many of the people in the church I left, I won't ever sit under the teaching of that pastor again.

There's a line to draw, and sometimes it's complex. But sometimes there really is a line that must be drawn.

So, I would say, try to change the church yourself. Do something instead of complaining.

I take the approach that I'm here until God moves me. I don't look at the circumstances. I think the point above is very important. Complaining or grumbling can turn into a bad spirit that is not helpful and will actually grieve the Holy Spirit if your not careful. There are 'problems' everywhere. God will deal with them as the folk submit. But we cannot take on an attitude of correction.

I met a guy recently that told me he does not attend one particular church but goes around each week straitening out churches that are out of line. He goes here and there and then after service corrects the leaders. Imagine that? That is a invitation to persecution and more perfectly 'rebuke' from even the most spiritual of churches. Can a person walk in and look around and start pointing out error? My first question is, "where is your work?" Surely if you are critical you are speaking from a position of having done this thing right and can show unto us a more excellent way? Where is your perfect church that we might model after yours? "Oh, I don't have one. I have never taken to the work." Hmmm? But you have all the answers? Put your hand to the plow and see the difficulty and battle of dealing with people and after being in the trenches for a while then give us some real advice. Just being real here. Folk need to realize what they are doing sometimes. Not every failure in a local church is because the leaders are rebellious.

Brother Isaac wrote:

Do something about the church by being The Church.

That would require that we believers learn patience, longsuffering, and kindness. What a concept.

Seriously, I've been learning and hearing the same message as you have stated here brother. And the change will come not by might or power of persuasion, but by the Holy Spirit.

Just like Paul or John, what did they spend their lives doing...should we not learn to do what Jesus taught them to do?

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Dear Pastor,

I agree fully with what you say about the church. But what do you do if they don´t want to listen?

My husband and I moved back from the States last year to my hometown here in Germany. We felt that the Lord wanted us here because there are not a lot of born again believers here, mostly catholic or protestant. There is only one evangelical church here, since this is a small town, so that´s where we went.We told them about our calling to evangelize and they were all excited about it, because this is what the Lord has put into our hearts. Now this church has children´s church, but no Sunday School at all. So we told the Pastor about it, how it´s done in the States and that Sunday School is really great and a lot of people can get something out of it, or discuss their questions, which you can´t do during service. But he didn´t want to hear none of it. He said that the Germans are holding to their tradition and that it wouldn´t work here. He didn´t even want to try it. We kept bringing this subject up over and over again,we prayed about it, but there was nothing we could do.
Also, the people from the church didn´t go out on visitation or to street evangelize. We talked to the Pastor about it, but he wouldn´t announce it during the service, but we started something anyway. My husband and I would go out once or twice a month on Saturdays to pass out tracts or to just talk to the people. When we tallked to the other believers in the church about it, they didn´t agree with us either. They either said that this wouldn´t work here in Germany or that they were scared to go to the streets and to talk openly about Jesus and their faith. We asked the Pastor what he thinks about starting a course so the people would lose their fear, something like "Share Jesus without fear". (I don´t know if you have heard about this course, but I really enjoyed it). No, he was against that too.
We stayed with this church for one and a half years, but then we left. Now this was the only evangelical church around us. We don´t have a car, so there is no way for us to go to any other church in other towns. Do you think we should have stayed with this church?

God bless,

KindGottes

Dear Sister,

Maybe you and your husband should pioneer a new work. Like Johnathan, go up and see if the Lord's hand is in it...

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Do you think we should have stayed with this church?

Just a question: Did God call you to leave, or to stay and be a Christ-light?

Trying to change the structure within any church tends not to work. Even Jesus didn’t try that. Perhaps the challenge for you, as it is for any of us, is to seek the Lord for what he would want.

Thankfully we are given helpful instructions in the Word - like showing hospitality, giving glasses of water to those who anger us and frustrate us (“our enemy”), edifying the saints, etc. I see Jesus and the Apostles as good examples. They went to the Temple (an apostate religion by their time) and healed, and loved, and ate, and dialogued. They were always in the world, but not of it.

Jesus did indeed denounce the religious system of his day, but he did not call us to that. Instead He died for those people, and he has called us to give our lives too.

It is not about seeking the ideal church, but about being the light and salt wherever God has put us. While we lean on him, we discover that Christ is sufficient. That speaks a message far more powerfully than any Sunday School class could.

And Christ brings other believers into our lives for fellowship - for mutual strenghtening and encouraging. "Where two or three are gathered..."

Diane

KindGottes,

We stayed with this church for one and a half years, but then we left. Now this was the only evangelical church around us. We don´t have a car, so there is no way for us to go to any other church in other towns. Do you think we should have stayed with this church?

Your situation is certainly a pickle. Again, I would say to prayerfully consider what the Lord would want you to do. Bro. Jeff mentioned 'pioneering' a work. I would pray about doing that also. Trust in trhe Lord with all your heart and lean not upon your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.

I think that some of what may have happened is that a [i]stigma[/i] developed in which the enemy took advantage of the fact that you were from America and comparisons may have been made or the like. This is just human nature and the way in which the enemy takes advantage of the situation. I have experienced this in a different way personally. You have to really guard your heart as you can become very upset about things like this. For me I [i]almost[/i]began to question the spirituality of certain folk and the like. I also took on outreach ministry to the streets. In time, I held my peace and allowed the folk to come to their own conclusions. Today there are as many as 15 people involved in this street ministry. It is a ministry to both minister the Gospel and hand out food and clothing. Things are improving as the Lord has been working it out.

God Bless,

-Robert

Dear Brother Jeff,

I don´t really understand what you mean by "pioneer a new work". Could you please explain this to me? I would appreciate it greatly!!

Be blessed!
Bea

Hi Diane!

Thank you for your question! You know, my husband and I prayed really hard about this issue. We didn´t just make the decision "Oh well, we´ll just leave if they don´t want us". No, it was hard for us, because we wanted to do God´s will here and we knew it was important. It took us a long time to decide.Since the Lord didn´t give us a clear "stay", we finally decided to leave. I know if God wanted us to stay there, He would have told me. But still it wasn´t easy, and I didn´t want pride or anything to be in the way either. I don´t feel wrong about leaving the church, and you are right, Christ indeed is sufficient. Thank you for your kind words!

In Christ
Bea

Dear Brother Robert,

I pray that the Lord will keep blessing you in your work for His Kingdom! We know that this is what its all about. To further His Kingdom, not OURS. It´s great that it worked out for you, and I know that the Lord has a plan for us being here, too, we just haven´t figured it out yet. But I´ll keep praying that the Lord will open ours eyes and helps us to see what He wants us to do for Him!

God bless you!
Bea

Sister Bea wrote:

I don´t really understand what you mean by "pioneer a new work"

I am 10 years old in the Lord and for the majority of that time I have attended Calvary Chapel churches in Southern California. I had the opportunity to witness the beginning of a new church. In the Calvary Chapel way of things, men are raised up from within the congregation and sent out to start a new work, or new church. The Calvary "way" does not require that you have a doctorate in Theology or even a degree from some bible school. What they look for is the "call" of God upon the life of the individual for the work that God has called one to.

Many times these new church plants are started from a bible study that is established in the community that one lives in. The studies are for the most part done, line by line, verse by verse, book by book through the bible.

This is where one finds out if God has indeed set this time as the time for His work amongst the people.

So after I read your thoughts this is what came to my mind to encourage you and your husband with.

I now live in central Pennsylvania, and have come across to some extent what you have in Germany. It is the congregation that selects the pastor, it is the congregation that controls the teaching. The men that they select have to have multiple degrees. The men that they select have to preach what they want to hear. This is all very new to me. There seems to be a lording over one another. There seems to be little freedom. It seems that culture has overcome conviction...

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Bro. Jeff,

well, thank you for explaining it! This gives us a lot to think about and pray about.

We had a evangelical "Hauskreis" (cellgroup) meeting once a week here in our house. The Pastor suggested it last year when he heard that God has put the lost into our hearts. Of course, we were all excited about it, but no one ever showed up. The Pastor even put ads in the paper, explaining what we are here for, that anyone that has questions about God or the Bible is welcome. Maybe the timing was wrong, I don´t know. People here are just so scared of "sects" like the Jehovas Whitnesses, and anything they don´t know is a "sect" for them. But the J. W. church is growing like crazy! Satan really has his foot down here.

We are going to seek the Lord in this, maybe we should start another cellgroup meeting here again. Because our last one was canceled when we left the church. Keep us in your prayers too!

Thanks again and God bless you!
Bea

Sister Bea wrote:

But the J. W. church is growing like crazy!

The people are hungry for the word of God. The JWs influence comes because of the word of God. Yet they have not the Spirit.

There is a statistic here in the U.S. which states that 85% of those who come to the Lord are those who are below the age of 18. As time goes on those who have not responded to the call of the Lord grow more hardened in heart. Their lives reflect the vain traditions of their fathers. Their fear of men overcomes their fear of God.

Go to those who are still searching for the truth. Go to those who do not have a hope.

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Dear Child of God

Just wanted to encourage in your work, whatever that turns out to be. We moved here (Dresden) after Bible College, because we saw the need in Germany; but I am still learning the language. I quoted some statistics somewhere else, but the US has 32.5% evangelical Christians and 24.7% charismatics. You can't add the groups to get a total as there is some overlap. Germany has 2.9% and 1.0% respectively. (In fact, on the basis of evangelicals, Europe is the least Christian continent in the world!) With Germany, we are talking about a country that is 10 to 25 times less Christian than the USA. You are in a country where the devil has almost completely declare victory and it is tough; but that is exactly where Christians need to be. So I understand your struggles and we will pray for you. I think that almost anything you can do to spread the good news of Jesus Christ won't be wrong, because the need is so great.

It is so sad, that the country that was the start of the protestant movement with Luther's 95 thesis, has fallen so far from the truth.

We have had some dealings with some baptist missionaries from the US since we have been here and encouraged them to send more missionaries; I have recently heard they are sending more; praise God. Perhaps more people in the US reading Sermon Index will move to Europe ;-)

Kind regards

Mike

Dear Bro. Mike!

Thank you for your encouragement! O yes, Germany is a tough place to be at....
They act like they have faith or believe in God, but their actions and words speak otherwise. I´m sure you know about the Pope being here a few weeks ago. When I saw the masses of people that stood there to see him, I was stunned. They celebrated the man, but what he actually supposedly represents, Jesus, they don´t want to hear nothing about. It is so sad.

It would be great if more missionaries would move here. There is a great need for more people to spread the Gospel. Please everybody, keep Germany in your prayers!!!
God bless you for your work here, Mike.

In Christ
Bea