Dear brothers and sisters!
I have a simple question:
Is there a place for non-believers in the church
or should we avoid that?
If non-believers would come, can we use the service itself for evangelism? With other words, do we get the people in or do we go out ourselves?
Please support your opinion by Truth and Love through Gods Word if you can. :-)
God bless!
Jonathan
For me, the book of Acts is key to this question.
Acts 2 tells us the Lord added to the church daily those who were being save.
The church isn't a building, but a body of believers. However, most churches meet in a building.
In Acts 2v47 it says they were praising God.
If we then change the service, that was meant to be used for praising God into evangelism, it is not God centred, but now man centred.
Let's look at false religions.
When they meet together, is it for outsiders or for those involved in their own beliefs? Do they change their meetings for outsiders, or is it still as it always is?
So, should Christians change their worship of God to accomodate unbelievers? No.
Acts 4 the apostles preached Jesus in the temple.
I would assume those in the temple had some godly conviction, or they would not have been there.
Acts 8 Philip went to Samaria and preached Christ to them. It doesn't say he went into a building, but to the city.
No doubt others will point out other scriptures such as 1 Cor14, James 2 etc.
For now I've said enough. Don't want to be too long. God bless.
It depends on the structure of the Church.
A church can have a Sunday service that is focused on outreach, and it can be effective. But, in order to be a well-rounded church, there needs to be more structure and teaching than the milk of the Word alone.
Personally, I think it works best when a church is structured as a hospital or barracks- training believers to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. On the other hand, I have seen some churches that effectively win sould to Christ by being outreach focused within their Sunday-morning services. Again, as long as there is a small group study, or something to continue to build and sanctify a believer, and not just milk alone.
So, should Christians change their worship of God to accomodate unbelievers? No.
This is a good point to bring up. Invariably the 'crowd' seems to dictate the direction of a meeting. I don't believe this is right, but I have seen it happen. Especially if there is a huge outreach in which parents who don't normally attend church with their kids are invited to come for some 'event'. Yet, I don't know what the solution is? Can we invite folks to church and then somehow ambush them (for lack of better terms)? It's a tough one.
Is there a place for non-believers in the church
If non-believers would come, can we use the service itself for evangelism? With other words, do we get the people in or do we go out ourselves?
What many are calling evangelism today isn't really biblical evangelism. Modern day evangelism focuses on man and is man-centered. This is unbiblical and actually has no saving efficacy. According to God's Word, the saints are sanctified by beholding the glory of the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:16-18) and sinners are saved by beholding the glory of the Lord (2 Corinthians 4:3-6). That being true then every church service ought to focus on seeing and revealing the glory of the Lord - thus making every service God-centered and not man-centered. If that happens, "unbelievers will fall on their faces and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you."
An attempt to make a service "seeker-sensitive" is only an attempt to make God more palatable. Therefore His glory is concealed and not revealed and a great injustice has been done both to the name and character of God and to the sinner whose only hope of salvation is to behold the glory of God in the face of Christ through the gospel.
Beholding His glory shows us how far short we have fallen of the glory of God and our eyes are "opened" to the truth of who He is (great and good) and who we are (wretched no good sinners). Then something marvelous happens - we agree with God (confess), we turn to God from sin (repent), we serve God (worship), and we are transformed into the same image by the Spirit.
Grace and peace
Olan
Brother,
I read in a book on church history that the early church did not allow known unbelievers into a meeting. Now as for the source, I wish I could find it again. Not sure if they did or not since lack of evidence.
Here is some scripture that may shed some light. Paul is speaking of church discipline in this passage.
"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person" (1 Cor. 5:12-13).
That person told to be put out of the assembly was at one time a believer but has left the faith, see verses 10-11. Nevertheless that person is now an infidel because of his wickedness. The point is that believers are to execute judgement on believers alone for their gross iniquity. But if the church is filled with a bunch of sinners that are their for fun (a problem in itself) we would have to consider them to be an infidel as our former brother was. They can then be expelled from our presence.
If a body is doing what they are supposed to do and living to glorify God what part would an infidel want with them anyway. Certainly not there to give God His glory and honor. We must reach out to them and once they are saved them bring then into the assembly.
One more thought... The Romans wrote of the early believers as being barbarian type worshipers, communion, and labeled them as cannibals. They would have under stood what the believers were doing if they could have just rolled up in the house and set down with them. But no, there seemed to be suspicion and secrecy about the early church meetings.
bro Doug
"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you" (1 Corinthians 14:24-25).
When I line that up to Acts 2:1-13, We see that when the gift of tongues/prophesying to the "devout Jews" they were outside the house and then came to that location. After that Peter then stands up and street preaches to the people outside, for there wouldn't have been enough room for the multitude to have come in to that house. It also says that the "multitude came together", and they said "to one another". Peter had to go address them, not the other way around (Acts 2:6,7).
bro Doug
After 9/11 there was a big spike in church attendance for about 6 months then it went back down to previous attendance. One of the reasons given by a prominent tv and radio preacher was basically this; They came looking for answers and a diffrence to their lives. However what they found in the church was nothing. The church was not really any diffrent than the world. There was nothing truly spiritual of God to keep them there.
I beleive thats true and some have posted here that we shouldn't change our worship etc. to accomadate the unsaved. I agree.
God bless, John
"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you" (1 Corinthians 14:24-25).
When I line that up to Acts 2:1-13, We see that when the gift of tongues/prophesying to the "devout Jews" they were outside the house and then came to that location. After that Peter then stands up and street preaches to the people outside, for there wouldn't have been enough room for the multitude to have come in to that house. It also says that the "multitude came together", and they said "to one another". Peter had to go address them, not the other way around (Acts 2:6,7).
Brother Doug, the context of 1 Corinthians 14:24-25 is that of an unbeliever entering into the worship service of the Corinthians which we are told in Acts 18:7 began meeting in the [b]house of a man named Justus
Grace and peace
Olan
I read in a book on church history that the early church did not allow known unbelievers into a meeting.
There are two broad models of 'meetings' in the New Testament. There is the 'public forum' meeting that we find in Acts 19. [color=0000ff]“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 19:8-10 KJVS)[/color] The school of Tyrannus was most likely a semi-public building in which Tyrannus conducted a 'school of philosophy'. Paul conducted what seems a little like an English 'night school'. The nature of this was almost certainly of a style that was familiar to the people of Ephesus. peripatetic philosophers taught 'on their feet' (perpateO means to walk around) The philosopher would be attended by his disciples and tuition would be through dialogue with a 'master' constantly questioning the understanding of his 'disciples'. We can see elements of this in Paul in Romans. Questions engage the thinking process. I very much doubt that this meeting would have included hymns or testimonies. Paul was adopting the 'culture' of Ephesus as the pattern for his teaching sessions.
The second model is the 1 Corinthians 12-14 model which has a very different purpose. These meetings were clearly not 'closed' to unbelievers but the purpose of the meeting was not evangelism but the worship of God and the edifying of the saints.
Olan wrote:
2)The unbeliever is not given membership into the body of Christ (the called out ones) and is not recognized as such without repentance and conversion. He or she has none of the privileges of the saints of God. He or she is not to sing in the choir, lead in praying, teach classes, participate in the Lord's supper, etc..
Seems to me this is the heart of the issue being discussed.
In our era there are churches who make membership optional or they have no membership rolls; all that is required is that you 'be saved' in order to participate in church administration and decision making.
To not allow an unbeliever to sit in a church service seems to me to be unChrist-like. This idea raises another question:
1. What about your children who have not made a decision for the LORD: will you bar their attendance?
Granted, this is not a verse/chapter answer to your question but it is the reality of where the rubber meets the road. So what I am saying: the church administration, teaching programs, any and all kinds of leadership positions/offices should only be held by members who have proven they are walking with the LORD in humility and obedience; who have committed themselves to help each other and serve God faithfully.
My underastanding on this issue...
ginnyrose
EDIT: In our church when there is a serious issue(s) being discussed, only members are allowed to be present. Depending on the issue, we are admonished to not share the info with non-members. It is important the decision making process be not influenced by non-members who would not have the best interests of the church in heart. ginnyrose
ginnyrose's
...only members are allowed to be present...
philogos wrote:
How do you identify 'members'? Not a hostile question!
When we take in people as members they are asked a few questions and they agree they will support this brotherhood among other things. They are not covenanted to stay there for life. If they chose to leave they will make that desire known and will be removed from our membership along with its privileges and responcibilities. If a member persists in unrepented sin (after applying Matthew 18:145-17), he/she will be excommuniczted from our church.
Make sense?
ginnyrose
EDIT: made an error in the verse numbers: it is Matthew 18:15-17.
Make sense?
Just a personal comment to throw into the mix: I am not a "member" of "my" church - just a paid staff, as Minister of Music of a Presbyterian Church. That seems to be how God has led at this time. If they don't want me any more they are free to fire me. God is my real boss.
In a meeting yesterday with my minister I told her that I was not part of the wood work, and I go where God sends me. She was very content with that outlook. In fact, to my utter delight I saw a copy of "Experiencing God" on her desk. She had just ordered a big box of them and is passing them around (!!!!!) That is totally novel in this church! I told her that that book was an important motivator in me coming to the church.
(Okay, that may not add to the discussion, but I've been itching to throw that praise item in somewhere. I'm so happy that some in my present congregation do indeed want to break out of the old dead ways, and are searching for God's ways)
I really only started out to say this: I view the church as the mission field - regardless of denomination. From my experience I've learned to draw very few assumptions from one's membership status.
Diane
philogos wrote:
Does that mean than someone might attend the meetings regularly and yet still not be a 'member'?
Yes. By 'meetings' we are talking about worship services.
Perhaps it might be helpful to expand a bit on the benefits of 'church membership'.
I have shared earlier about the responcibilities of a member. Now I would like to discuss how restricted membership assists the brotherhood. In Ephesians 5:3-: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named,among you, as becometh saints; . It helps to maintain the purity of the church by giving it authority to discipline persistent sinning by its members. And it works.
ginnyrose
Sadly I don't have the time to reply on all posts and such...
I have noticed that 1 Cor 14 has been quoted.
Why if the church is supposed to not change their worship to accomodate believers Paul says this in 1 Cor 14:23?
It's obvious that non-believers are welcome to visit the church. If indeed the goal of a church is to worship then non-believer cannot have any part in it as non-believers cannot worship God.
What is the church? Isn't it just a group of believers getting together? Perhaps 'outreach services' should not be called church? If you are to get non-believers to church they would probably go on sunday. Either way you can try to 'lure' people in or bombard them with the Truth.
You could argue if the sunday services are 'church' meetings or other private meetings which exist only out people following the Lord is actually church. (the first can be organized by the latter group in a church)
At the moment I don't have an idea what would be the best 'system'... All I know that people who state they are believers should have an attitude of taking up the cross, knowing that they cannot follow Jesus if they don't. (and loving God above all and your neighbour as yourself) Is organization wrong? Only if it hinders God I would say...
I think churches are confusing. :-)
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