Once a Son, Always a Son?

I still believe in "once saved, always saved" through Jesus´ blood that He shed on the cross for our sins. Also, if you read Romans 6:38-39, it says: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" KJV.
Once we repent from our sin and give our lives to Jesus, we are adopted by God as His children. Look at Romans 8:14: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God". And 8:15: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". Of course it is still possible for us to sin, look at Romans 7:14-20: "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me ( that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". And then verse 24 goes on "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Verse 25, which I think is the most important here, says " I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".

If even Paul had these problems, why should we not? And do you believe that he thought himself a child of Satan, because his flesh continued to sin? No, he knew he was a child of God through Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Bea

While I don't believe God saves and then unsaves, I tend to shy away from the 'once always' statements. Why? Because you don't find them in Scripture. Certainly if that were the way God intened His people to think, He would have said so. But rather, the Scripture says things like, hold fast, endure, keep the faith, etc, etc.

I have a dear brother who I work and preach under, who often stands up and speaks after I get finished, comforting our boys with 'once saved, always saved' teaching, and to tell you the truth, I don't fight him one bit. But I, personally, will stay true to what God speaks to me. It was Gurnall in his famous tome that said something like this:

"When you find someone who preaches near popery, without preaching popery, that's your man."

I don't want to debate about that statement, but rather confirm the spirit of what Gurnall was saying; that the pure gospel message should properly induce fear on the man who is living out of God's will, whether he is saved or not. The gospel should make people uncomfortable who are in rebellion to God, not by intellectual means, but by the Spirit, of course.

I once spoke with a man who asked me this question after handing him a 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' CD: "Do you believe in pouring gasoline on someone and then just lighting them on fire?" I knew this was going to get good. The man kept telling me, "I believe in once saved, always saved," but then he would tell me he did not believe in hell. I tried all the reasoning but he just wouldn't listen. All I could think about was Hebrews 6.

So while I don't believe the GENUINE convert will fall away, I don't preach 'once saved always saved' but rather, 'examine yourselves...prove your own selves' and 'make your calling and election sure.'

I think if you take the debate away, and look at the genuine man or woman of God, regardless of their view on eternal security, you will see a holy life. I concentrate on what the Scripture says to me today, instead of only focusing on what happened the day I met the Lord.

I attend a church that leans to one side of the debate, and work in a ministry that for the most part leans to the other (I will let you guess which). All denominations have those who are out of the will of God (like early Rev, 'I am somewhat against thee' etc). Of the lukewarm in each, I see in the Armenian schools of thought, a kind of nervousness and anxiety, and in the OSAS schools of thought, those that seem to be a little more of a drift toward 'sin that grace may abound.' (and truthfully, a drift toward being 'at ease in Zion' in both).

I think the problem is twofold: people don't really get into the Scriptures, people aren't serious about prayer (I am much more guilty of the second). Regardless of stance on this debate, almost everyone I have met who really devours the Word of God and stays hungry for it, seems to have a clean, sanctified spirit about them. Most often those who either seem anxious or 'backslidden' are almost guaranteed to not be desiring the sincere milk of the word. And of the ones who do much study but are still getting tossed about, I would bet they 'hear' the words but don't 'do' what they read.

Didn't want to sidetrack the issue, Laz, your subject just brings up a lot of feelings after getting a taste of so many different Christians.

Lazarus

What does God say? ( not what" people say")

Quote Laz

"if a person can "lose" their sonship to the devil, then they can "lose" their sonship to God as well."

Where in the bible teaches this?

First of all, you seemed to have assumed the devil is as powerful as God. When believers are adopted to God's sonship, do you actually think that the devil can touch them?

[b]John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and [i]no man is able[/i] to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, [i]shall be able to separate us from[/i] the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,[i] ye were sealed [/i]with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/b]

Quote Laz

"And when a person becomes a backslider, they are no longer children of God but become children of the devil."

Again, did you make this up? Where's the scriptural base?

Backsliding,was a term in the days when God used to proclaim against Israel/Judah by Jeremiah and Hosea, pinpointed mainly to their turning back into idolatries since GOD delivered them from Egypt. Since, strangely, this word has been always used to describe sinning Christians' in relationship to their soteriological position.

Lastly, define sins that are considered the backsliding type?? Adultery? Fornications? Idolatry? Greed? Back to Judaism? Back to Buddism? None of these? How about PRIDE?

Take any of your most respected evangelists, someone who preaches and "saves" millions, in his deep dark closet, he's loaded with unrepented sin in pride, sin in hate, do you see he's a sinner or a backslider?

Study l John:

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, [b]we lie[/b], and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from [b]all sin. [/b]

8If we say that we have no sin, [b]we deceive ourselves,[/b] and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ( PRAISE GOD FOR THIS SO MUCH !!)

10If we say that we have not sinned,[b] we make him a liar[/b], and his word is not in us.

When we (Christians) sin, or turn back to sins, are liars, we deceive ourselves and GOD, not backsliders. Sonship will not be tainted.

However, professing 'christians' who persist in the same sins, who commit them without repentance or remorse, I call those false brethren, who lied about their conversion, whom were never born again to begin with, again, not backsliders.

Laz, please study hard and know your doctrine before you go preach it to anyone else, this is very serious. It's far better not to preach than to preach falsehood or errors !!

sincerely

Letsgetbusy,

you know, the word "Trinity" is not mentioned in scripture either, and we still believe in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, right? Or the word "rapture". I don´t think we should go by this, but like you said, what the Word of God says about it!

In Christ
Bea

i think backslider is a bad word to use, i dont think there are such thing as a born again backslider, we can fall into sin and do sin, but if we fall away completly, to me that is evidence they never were saved to begin whit, so how can anyone backslide if they werent saved, as mamaluk said...there are many false brethren out there, many who says im a christian...but we can know them by there fruits...

and as everyone is saying what does god say? that is the only importent thing...

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

they where not all of us...hmm does that meen they were only backsliden? or does it meen they never where of us to begin whit...

christian

and i have to add...since ive talked of this subject not to long ago...i belive the word teches from those verses mamaluk provided here that if a person is truly born of god...the same god who created the universe...if that god has made a new creation in me or anyone else...exept i choose to divorce god and rip him out of my heart willingly knowing the consecuenses of eternal damnation... exept i do that...no one can touch me becuse god shall finich what he started, for his eternal glory, the devil aint got nothing on the children of god, he may lie to us and make us take a wrong turn here and there...but god dosent abandon his children...

ohh glory to the living god, i find such comfort in this, he will never leave me or any of his children

glory be to god
amen

Sidenote: I heard in Jewish tradtion. That when a son was born into the family, he could leave the family and be no more with that family. BUT once a son was adopted in, he was to NEVER EVER leave the family because he was bought with a price. 8-)

you are right in many ways lazarus, an older saint told me when i mentioned things like this, he said in acts 14:22 that it is thru much suffering that we enter into the kingdom of god, and that the paralell of the sower shows many are going to fall away, and as for when many went away, in matthew there were 5000 eating food from christ right? how many was then the many that went away? probably very many people...

but this old man told me, son there is a time to be harch and rebuke people, but most of the time we have to encurage them in love, every time all the time, ii was all exited and like LOOK LOOK THEY ARE ALL GOING TO HELL! and maybe that is so, but he told me its hard to go about people like that if they dont know you love them, and to say that to someone else who is not quite there or have fallen away and is living in sin, sometimes they may need conviction, sometimes encuragement and that is why we need maturity, i know i will always almost do the wrong thing, when encuragement is needed i will rebuke, and the other way around, im now trying to be more still and whit a LOVING tone in a LOVING way show people to scripture, and encurage them to read there bible and pray, and come to meetings, i can do that and maybe they will by gods grace come around and turn around, and after some years maturing i can know by my experience when i should be harcher and rebuke people and be hard on them, but still, we can NEVER change someone else.... no not one single person, not truly anyway...only god can, so dont forget his involment in this, and may god walk whit you in your ministry lazarus, more people need to do what you do.

gods peace and guidence to you
christian

letsgetbusy wrote:

But rather, the Scripture says things like, hold fast, endure, keep the faith, etc, etc.

I believe, when scripture is speaking about these things, it is referring to our rewards, not to salvation.

2. John 8: "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward".

And in 1. Cor. 3 Paul tells us about the foundation we should build on, and the work we do.

1. Cor. 3:14 "If any man´s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man´s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved: yet so as by fire".

Just a thought.

be blessed
Bea

A bit of my other post:
Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" IT IS CHRIST WHO BEGAN.

Phil 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." All who have ever fallen away(permanently) were never saved in the first place.

******If you are TRULY saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

_______________________________________________
1 John Cpts 2 & 3

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"4 Whoever commits(pratices) sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
________________________________________________

God hates sin and somebody who loves sin consequently hates God and is lost. If you are saved you will strive to be holy.

1 Peter 1:16
"because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”"

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Its not that by your works you are saved but if you are saved you have works! Otherwise you have a dead faith!

James 2:20
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Once saved always saved" This phrase is devastating to people who twist things to thier own destruction. The question really is...

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

2 Peter 1:10
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble"

WERE YOU SAVED? DID YOU REALLY CHANGE? ARE YOU LIVING IN SIN? DO YOU PRACTICE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?????

Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted! (Provided by God)
________________________________________________
John 10:29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 1:13-14

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." -Martin Luther

www.cornerstoneorlando.org
www.heartcrymissionary.com

It is very possible for a true Christian to:

I just want to add one more very powerful scripture to that list of Scriptures Jesse gave...

Jude 12 talks about men "who are spots on your love feasts"...who are "twice dead."

Now the only way someone can be 'twice dead'...is that they were dead once, made alive through Christ, and now they're dead again.

I understand where the OSAS people are coming from...its just a matter of perspective:

The Arminian views things from a human standpoint. We do not know if one of our own (who we believe is saved) will depart from our Lord and "receive the grace of God in vain" (Heb 12:15). And if that person denies their Lord and walks away from Him, and then is hit by a truck: he is going to hell. And although He was once "saved"...he now is not. He walked away from God.

Yet, the Calvinist views things from an eternal standpoint. He is looking from the outside of 'time', in. Since that man who was hit by the truck never actually [i]received[/i] his salvation and was not 'saved'...in eternity's eyes, he technically never was saved because when the actual time of 'saving' came...he wasn't.

Forgive my fumbling with words, this truly is a hard topic to explain. Where the OSAS people have gone off track though, is that someone comes down the front of church, says a superstitious , formula prayer that is supposed to grant salvation, and then they go off and live like the world and bear no fruit, yet claim salvation through the grace of God.

God bless you all. Endure to the end, so that you may receive the gift of salvation.

Adam

[color=0000ff]Prov. 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

Prov. 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length.[/color]

Just a couple of verses that have challenged me from time to time.

Lazarus1719 wrote:

*turn from his righteous ways, commit iniquity, and die (Ezekiel 18:24, 26)
*fall away (Mt 11:6; Mk 14:27,29)
*wander away (Mt 18:12,13)
*turn away from the faith (Mt 24:10)
*stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk 8:13)
*cut in two and assigned a portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46)
*lose your saltiness and be thrown out (Lk 14:34,35)
*turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn 6:66)
*be a branch that is cast out as withered, and thrown in the fire and burned (Jn 15:6)
*go astray (Jn 16:1)
*cease to continue in His goodness, and be cut off (Rom 11:22)
*be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)
*Leave egypt, be baptized, eat and drink of Christ, and yet have God get angry and scatter your body in the wilderness (entire chapter of 1 Cor 10)
*believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2)
*fall away from grace (Gal 5:4)
*cease to continue in the faith, move away from the hope of the Gospel, and not be presented holy, blameless, and above reproach in His sight (Col. 1:23)
*be part of the falling away (2 Thes 2:3)
*wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim 1:5,6)
*have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19)
*be puffed up with pride and suffer the same condemnation as the devil (1 Tim 3:6)
*have condemnation because they cast off their first faith (1 Tim 5:12)
*turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15)
*depart from the faith (1 Tim 4:1)
*wander away from the faith (1 Tim 6:10,21)
*wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim 2:18)
*turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:4)
*drift away (Heb 2:1)
*acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb 3:12)
*come short of entering His rest (Heb 4:1)
*fall according to disobedience (Hewb 4:11)
*fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Heb 6:6)
*sin wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, and there be no sacrifice for sins left, and we come under a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the advesaries of God (Heb 10:26-27)
*fall short of the grace of God, and many become defiled from it (Heb 12:15)
*turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb 12:25)
*be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb 13:9)
be judged (Jam 5:9)
*wander from the truth, and need his soul saved from death (Jam 5:19)
*stuumble [from your calling and election] (2 Pet 1:10)
*leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet 2:15)
*again be entangled in [the pollutions of the world], and the end result is so bad that it would be better for you to never have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it (2 Peter 2:20-21)
*be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet 3:17)
*have their lampstand removed from its place (Rev 2:5)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:10,11)
*have their name blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev 3:15,16)
*have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev 22:19)
*have their part from the Book of Life, the holy city, and the things written in the book taken away (Rev 22:18)

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

doesnt this speak of the possibility to waste your life in the flesh and yet be saved?
I'm just wondering.
What do you think about that?

daniel

Hi daniel,

this is exactly what I wrote in my post. I´m thinking the same!

God bless
Bea