Spirit frilled or Spirit filled?

Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus,My brothers and sisters I hope this post comes not from my head or emotions but from my heart and spirit. I have lived with a perpetual disgust and holy hatred for the garbage that passes as Christianity, Spirit-Filled, Pentecostal Christianity nonetheless. However, over the past few days an intense urgency has been building within me. I graduated from the Brownsville Revival School of Ministry almost 8 months ago. While there, I lived in an atmosphere where repentance, the cross, and the preaching of radical (normal) holiness was pretty much all that I heard. For 2 years almost every morning, for at least one hour and many times more than that, I spent crying out to God with hundreds of other student who were desperate for a move of God. My classmates and church friends were those who burned with a passion for holiness and for souls. Prayer was the center of all we did. I say this only to say that after being in that atmosphere for almost 2 years, I almost forgot what "regular" 21st century church life was like. My father serves as a presbyter for our particular denomination and was telling me with disgust how most of the other presbyters in our section take their children to see movies such as the Matrix, and all of these other hell-inspired films which are being passed of as allegories of the gospel. I preached very harshly to our young people this past friday night at our youth prayer meeting the 4 points of the Welsh Revival. The one I centered in on was the removal of any doubtful thing from our lives. In other words the removal of everything from our lives that we are unsure of whether it is sinful or not. I am becoming so sick of the pasivity (is that a word?) I see towards sin and unrighteousness in the Church. We raise and clap our hands on Sunday morning, dance and run the aisles and then go home and listen the Lords name being taken in vain, we listen to curse words and say, "Well you know, I just block them out I don't even hear it." or the classic, "I'm not going to let one or two words ruin an otherwise good movie for me." Brothers and sisters, I tell you that for us to say we are indwelt with the Holy Ghost, and continue on with this filth is profane. I tell you the father is not pleased. If we truly want revival, if we truly want to see the Glory of God know this, the Ark will NEVER share a room with dagon. Our idols must go.Secondly, this goofy, Americanized gospel of prosperity, blessing, and ease must go. I watched a video from 2002 by Pastor John Kipatrick from Brownsville as he expounded upon the urgency of the times. He then lamented that everytime he turns on "christian" television he is still hearing prosperity and money preached. Brothers and sisters, the church is becoming so irreverent and is in turn becoming irrelevant. My heart is broken tonight over this. Friends, the gospel is not gold chairs and flashy suits. We are surely living in days similar to those of Jeremiah,"The prophets prophesy lies and the priests rule by their own authority and worse yet, my people love it this way."Brothers and sisters, I plead with you, let us find our way to the altar again. Let us grind to pieces the asherah poles and the idols that are adorning the house of God in our day. Tonight is super bowl sunday, and churches all over America are empty, while church member sit at home laughing at beer commercials. Friends we need revival.Burning,Jeff

churches are emtpy... churches are empty? I'm sorry, but there are churches in my area that are having not only youth, but also adult super-bowl parties. hundreds of students are coming to church to hang-out, play some basketball, and watch the super bowl. people who would never have come to church are coming out to these superbowl parties. i wouldn't worry about the beer commercials, they're always pretty bad.

we are in revival.

Brother, I appreciate your sincerity, but I have to say on a broad scale we are in a mess rather than in revival. There are pockets and there are churches that God is moving powerfully in, but we are sadly lacking in this hour. As for super bowl parties, I have to say I do not agree with mounting (in the words of Brother Wilkerson) a Babylonian Idiot Box into the sanctuary and entertaining ourselves with the idols of this generation. I'm not anti-sports per se, but when the half time show is Janet Jackson and the cheerleaders look more like strippers, and the commercials promote drunken stupidity, I would have to say it has no place in a place which is dedicated unto the purposes of God. As for crowds coming, Jesus said that where ever there is a carcass there the vultures will gather. I would say that is fitting.Blessings,Jeff

Im sorry, i should have explained more...during commercials - christian music videosduring half-time - youth pastor preaches and invites the students out to the youth ministry. overall, across the country we may be in a mess, but where i am at, we are in revival.

I have something to say about super bowel parties and the churches that have them. I came from one such church.Let me first say that tonight I am PRAISING GOD because do you know where my husband is? He is not watching football or at church watching football- he is sledding with my kids. This is the first year that he has - on his own- let go of this idol in his life. Thank you Jesus! Ravenhill is mostly responsible for this. :-D His quotes about "sport and entertainment being a substitute for god's joy finally made their way home into Dan's heart.Even my 14 yr. old daughter KNOWS that God is sad, so very sad tonight because it is a night of huge idolatery. Sports, beer, commercials that sell bodies, looks, beer, the pleasures of this world. And look what this is saying to the kids who watch the parents put such emphasis on it.I just want to prove my point with this: tonight I was at the grocery store and the bagger was saying that he shouldn't have to work on "Super Bowl" sunday. Then he proceeded to tell the cashier-'hey, it's my religion, it's what i live for."Church has nothing to do with it. If anything these days they are just making it more acceptable to blend into the world. Just because someone is IN A CHURCH DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. They may as well become just a lost as many of the people that are in the churches.All over America tonight, many churches are having superbowl parties to get people to think they're "cool' too. "That it's cool to be a Christian. You don't have to sell everything off and join a monastery." Yes, you do. You must sell off your "stuff", your idols, your rights and you must join in the simplicity and humility of Christ.I am getting more disgusted with the Churches everyday. Yesterday it was a pastor having an affair with a man, today super bowl parties to entice people to church. Can you not see how apostasized (sp?) the churches are? It is obvious to me that the church is just becoming more of the world every day and it is not going to change.I say this all of the time. I have much more compassion and patience with the unsaved. I don't grieve over their sins as much because they have a reason- they don't know any better- they havn't met the Savior yet, they have no power over sin. It;s the "christians" that i have no patience with. I grieve and I know God grieves much more over their sins because they know better- they know the truth and they still continue to walk in their own ways.

God is moving. I appreciate your passion, because, yes, it is hard to find, and i can tell that your eyes are open to what satan is trying to do. i see it. whenever i go to my high-school, even the "christians" aren't living a life glorifying God. But there are those few with a buring passion. God is consuming them with his fire, He is moving. always forward, never backward.

It;s the "christians" that i have no patience with. I grieve and I know God grieves much more over their sins because they know better- they know the truth and they still continue to walk in their own ways.It depends. Who exactly are you refering to, because in the youth ministry, patience is vital. students who are now coming to church are coming from wrecked homes. I hear it so often. so many preachers were not living for Christ before they changed their lives. if it wasn't for the patience of christians, these preachers may have left the church.

Blessings,I would have to agree with you on pretty much every point "moreofhim", except I do believe it is possible for it to change. I am myself a youth pastor and I have a group of kids who are very passionate for Jesus. They could care less about sports or entertainment (the majority). I understand this one truth, superbowl parties and all these "frills" we attach (hence the name of the post) are not that effective. We may be doing it in the name of outreach, but friends lets not kid ourselves, I believe that christians turning over their church buildings to become a sanctified sports bar grieves the Holy Ghost. Now remember I am not an 80 year old disgruntled Christian who doesn't understand youth culture. I am a youth pastor, so reaching out to youth and understanding them and the culture is part of my calling. We are trying to be relevant to the world on the worlds terms and in turn we are becoming irrelevant. The world says with their lips, "We want sports!" But the empty look on their faces betray them. Their spirits are crying out, "We want Jesus!" Brother Ravenhill on a radio interview told a story of one of Julius Caesars sons making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. He desired to go to the temple and find God. So upon arrival he pushed his way through the outer court, court of women, court of gentiles, through the Holy Place, and into the Holy of Holies, only to find that the Ark of God (His Glory and Presence) was not there. He then exclaimed with sorrow, "God is not here, God is not here." Isn't this so true of what our Youth Groups do to the world today? Look they are not coming in hungry for drama, light shows, loud music and light shows. They are coming in screaming out for someone to ease the pain they are in. They want an encounter with the Living God. And so they can somehow push their way through our worldly attitudes, our social club mentality, our video games, our music, our choreographed dancers, our glorified comedians (common youth pastor), only to leave exclaiming with GREAT SORROW, "GOD IS NOT HERE!" Then they leave and find someone else to ease their pain. CHURCH We must sever these devilish frills that lure only to disapoint! We need God's tangible and manifested presence in our churches. This and THIS ALONE is the answer for the youth of America. The answer is not to fill the foyer with video games and smoke and lights. The answer is fill the heavens with prayer so that God would once again fill His temple with Glory! Friends, I say again let us again find an altar, allow God to break us that we may see a genuine move of the Spirit! Listen, I lived in the midst of the Brownsville Revival for two years and it was and is incredible, but we have hardly made a dent in America. What then is the answer? More tears, more prayer, more nights laying in the gap, and ultimately more of Him!Blessings my brothers and sisters,Jeff

Thanks Jeff,Well said and thanks for giving us a perspective from experience.We need God's tangible and manifested presence in our churches. This and THIS ALONE is the answer for the youth of America.I could only add, young and old alike.Pray

I agree with what you say Jeff. Last night I was watching the Super Bowl with my family, as is our custom. I was allowing myself to watch things I wouldn't normally watch were it any other event on any other day, but I foolishly made an exception to this, because afterall, it was the Super Bowl. So, about at half-time, I watched the "artists" perform their shows, and then came Justin Timberlake and Janet Jackson. JUstin proceded to air-hump Jackson, or as one cable news network said, "flirtatious dancing." Then comes the end of the song where Timberlake, as far as I'm concerned, deliberately exposed Janet Jackson's right breast at the end of the "dance." At that point, God broke through me and started dealing with me. I instantly thought... I could be watching all this at the homes of members from my church tonight. Then I thought, I could also be watching it at any number of churches that are having super bowl parties. Then I thought of how many churches in the area canceled Sunday night services, or moved them back, several hours, so they could all watch the toilet-bowl...er Super Bowl. Then I thought how at my church yesterday morning, we sang "Turn your eyes upon Jesus.... and the things of this world will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace." I wonder for how many fellowships pulled the plug at that point? I wonder how many churches last night decided to have a 4 hour prayer meeting where they gazed upon Jesus instead of some little ball bouncing back and forth from one side of the screen to the other and the erotic dancing that was paraded across stage at half-time. How carnal are we? Is it no wonder that God is absent from our fellowships? Is it no wonder that we have to come up with every technique in the world to attract people to our large pine boxes? Is it no wonder that people are going after false manifestation after manifestation? Is it no wonder that the family unit is absolutely destroyed? If God is truly with us, then in the words of Gideon, "where are all the miracles?"How much different will it be one day. Today we allow everything in the world to cause us to take our eyes off Jesus. But one day, and the day is coming, when the dead will rise and stand before Christ in judgment, and in that day, "heaven and earth will flee from His presence." What a glorious day. A day where there will be nothing to keep us from setting our eyes upon the holy and majestic face of the Lamb, for all the things of this world will vanish before His presence. For some this will be a time of rejoicing, for others, a time of dread. It will be a rejoiceful time for those who chose to cast their gaze upon Christ now, but it will be a time of absolute dread for those who have not.

Ravenhill quoted Keith Green, "All roads lead to the judgment seat of Christ.May the fire burn on!In Christ rookie

PTC,I too was appalled at the same things, was shocked and grieved over it.Sports in and of themselves as far as the 'game' aspects, competiton, athleticism, team work and so forth are not the problem. We have far to many examples in the scriptures alluding to them and not in anyway denouncing them.I am also aware of the 'fanaticism' associated with all of it as a former fanatic as well as a former gambler. In a sense for a long time they were my 'gods'. But when I was apprehended from above, they lost their appeal and became what was intended "to enjoy all things" in their right perspective. I can take 'em or leave 'em.If I never saw another Sharks game as long as I live, it wouldn't mean a thing...a couple of years ago you would have caught me speeding to get home in time for the puck to drop.Unfortunately, this 'essense' of sport has become tainted, ruined better yet, by the influence of all the attachments and broadening erosion of the society at large. The envelope keeps getting pushed, little by little..we all know what is going on here. I did not come to make a defense of t.v. in any way, in fact I am ready to throw my house into a state of upheavel by pulling the plug on this insipid idiot box, the vast majority of it is a cop out on reality, a dumbing down of the God given brains of the masses, a drug to seduce the world to sleep and a feeding ground for immorality.It is absurd to think that we would be intergrating it into our churches, but it is so in too many cases. The other post's I am in complete agreement.Like(d) the sports, just not that much...

Im sorry, i just can't believe what is being said here. Is it no wonder that God is absent from our fellowships?Who said God isn't moving in our churches? I CANNOT believe this!!! just because there are drama teams, lighting effects, pool tables, and worship bands doesn't mean that God is not there. In these youth ministries, lives have been changed and students have been healed. THESE ARE NOT just the kids that come with their families on Sunday morning, some of these are kids coming from wrecked homes, if homes at all. It's not just a few kids that one would call a "youth group"... these are youth ministries, reaching students instead of staying in our boxes.

in the youth ministry that i am a part of specifically, we don't just have one night as a youth night. We have a youth service, where you would find the pool tables, the lighting effects...then, during the week, we have adult leaders and student leaders leading small groups of students in their homes or at the church. This builds fellowship. Then we also have dicipleship courses that are tought by the youth pastor. only one youth night, yes, it is hard to build fellowship. That is why we have these small groups and the dicipleship courses.

three9,you have to remember that many of us here have been christians for awhile. when you are growing and maturing in the Lord you should learn to let more of the "world" go- it's a narrow path we walk and it only gets narrower as you go. we (other posters including myself) should remember that not all poster are long-time (should be mature) christians.I will admit that new christians and people who need the Lord need to be approached sometimes a little differently, especially kids. They need love and support and healing- which any one who is in Christ could do- it doesn't have to be a church's job.I know that the church I was at for three years- even though 99% of everyone was lukewarm- the Lord still led me from a lukewarm christian to an on -fire growing Christian. It had nothing to do with the that church per se, but I believe the divine appointments He had for me there. It's like something in me "woke up" and I saw through all of the lukewarmness and lies and I tried to tell people there that soemthing was terribly wrong- they did not want to hear about it. There was a purpose in it for the time being though. It was a stepping stone.As far as the fellowshiping goes- it is nice to have fellowship- necessary many times- but the churches today get you 'hooked" on a continual "go, go, go" scedule. You feel as like if you aren't with the Church people- then you aren't with God. It begins to be almost an addiction. The most important fellowship we can ever have is with the Father Himself. it doesn't matter where we are, who we're with. I stayed in my home for a few months fellowshipping (accept to do the necessary errands), talking and listening to the Lord and I had never felt such intimacy with the Lord. I grew more in my walk than ever. Fellowshipping with church people is no substitute for getting alone with God. Many times it's just more "busy" work and learning Church traditions that were never meant to exist in the first place.I am sorry you feel we are so quick to judge. I would definitely approach this whole subject differently with an unsaved person or relative. I think that mostly we are aiming our comments at mature christians who should know better because as we grow we should automatically be letting 'things' like this go.In Him, Chanin

Who said God isn't moving in our churches?I've seldom seen Him move in the fellowships I've been involved with. Sometimes, but not much. I CANNOT believe this!!! just because there are drama teams, lighting effects, pool tables, and worship bands doesn't mean that God is not there. In these youth ministries, lives have been changed and students have been healed.I have nothing against any of these things in themselves. However, too often these things become the focal points. At best, they should perhaps be the icing on the cake. Christians, especially Christian kids, should do fun activities together. I enjoy doing fun things with other Christians, as that is part of sharing our lives together.However, if kids or others are simply coming to the church because of this glitter, then they are coming totally for the wrong reasons. I believe these things to have become major distractions at my church, not only for the children, but also for the leadership as well. If the focus is not on Christ, and leading people into worshipping Him with all their lives, and building up the saints, and winning the lost, then there is a serious problem. We must lead people into encountering Christ, through the fruit of the Spirit, and the gifts of the Spirit.

Chanin,You said:"Fellowshipping with church people is no substitute for getting alone with God. Many times it's just more "busy" work and learning Church traditions that were never meant to exist in the first place".Yep, been there, done that , got the T-Shirt. Ain't goin' back though. ;-) Also, you said :"I am sorry you feel we are so quick to judge".Okay, we forgive you, but knock it off will you? We ain't got time for all of that. :-D Clutch :-P

Blessings all,I want to make myself a little bit more clear. I see that some of you may be misunderstanding my passion in this area. Is there anything wrong with sports? Not in and of themselves. Lights? No. Drama? No, if that were true I'd be in trouble. Worship Teams (contemporary ones even)? Absolutely not, my wife and I do the worship at our church also. Now let me change things up a bit. Is there anything wrong with buying a field? NO!Anything wrong with buying a yoke of oxen? NO!Anything wrong with taking a wife for ones self? NO!Yet though there are nothing wrong with these three things we find in the parable of the Great Supper, that these were the very things which kept three men from attending the Masters banquet. They weren't sin necessarily, but at that particular moment they were absurd.Even though there is nothing wrong with marriage, (for he who findeth a wife findeth a good thing), yet in Joel 2, set in the context of national disaster and depravity the LORD says to call a soelmn assembly and in verse 16 He instruct the bride and the bridgroom to come out of their chambers. What is wrong with a bride and a groom being together? Nothing at all, but see the times had grown more urgent, and what was good and acceptable 5 minutes ago is now absurd. Again Paul says to the Corinthians, that because OF THE TIMES, he that is married should live as though he is not. (he is not to be tied down with the affairs of this life.) See there are many things that are not sinful, yet in light of the times we're living in they have become absurdities. I read just the other day in Revival Praying by brother Ravenhill an example he gives on this matter. He gives the example of a father playing with his little girl on their front lawn. Nothing sinful here right? In fact this is a pleasant thought in a day of fatherless homes. However, this man happens to be a fireman, in fact he drives the truck. He has just received a message that there is an out of control blaze in town and they need him there ASAP. Now if he, ignores the alarm thinking someone else can take care of it today, I'm playing with my little girl, he becomes a neglegent criminal. What was right five minutes ago, suddenly becomes a crime. Now lets go back to the matter at hand. THere is nothing technically wrong with smoke and lights and video games (although thats a stretch). However, considering the urgency of our times, having a gathering of youth (or adults) together and do nothing but play games, read a few verses of scripture, socialize and go home is absolutely IMMORAL in these times. The day of slumber is over my friends. 20 years ago these things may have been at least passable, but in these times friends it is time for a voice to cry out in the wilderness. It is time to take our youth deeper in the things of God. (not into the swimming pool) We must raise up an army of Young Prophets and Revivalists. We must raise up intercessors and soul winners. We must raise up martyrs for Jesus. I condemn no man for doing things another way, all I'm saying is that I do not see the long term effectiveness of it. For instance we have 2 very large seeker-sensitive style youth ministries in our area. Their services are filled with all of the above, games, secular music, lights etc... They both run high in attendance as well. Yet some time ago I went personally to one of these to check them out and a young man (and attender I might add) was standing at the front door selling drugs. Now I know people who were saved and touched there as well. However, the long term effectiveness is lacking sadly when matched up with what I read about in the Bible and Church History. Do you remember the story of Hannah in 1 Samuel? Do you remember that Elkanah had 2 wives not just Hannah? There was also Peninnah, and the scriptures tell us that she was fruitful. According to scriptures she had both daughters and sons. Hannah however, was barren. One looked much more fruitful and effective than the other. But do you know something interesting? We really never hear from Penninahs children. I'm sure they were significant in their own right, but for the most part they had no significant impact on history. However, Hannah, the barren one, fell on her face before the Lord and cried out for a manchild. She not only in the course of time received this, she also received a Prophet, Priest, and Ruler whoes name was Samuel. Penninah appeared more fruitful, yet her children were historically insignificant. Hannah, however, took much longer to produce but because it was done through the power of the Spirit and not through the flesh, her son finds a place in Hebrews 11 with the heroes of our faith. Friends there are (I believe) 2 segments in the church today, those who are contented with being Penninahs, and producing quickly yet only producing average children, and then there are the Hannahs. These recognize their own barrenness. These know the power of the Spirit is the only answer. These know tears, intercession, holiness, prayer are the only answer. These I believe will be the ones whom God will use to birth His Sameul (Revival) in the earth. Friends let us strive to be Hannahs and not just Penninahs. Penninahs means "Jewel" or "Precious". This segment of the body is still precious to God. Hannah, however, means "Favored". May we strive to be the favored of God. May we say with Paul, "I count all things as dung that I may win Christ." (speaking of His favor)Blessings and Fire on all of you,Jeff

sorry... i was gettin a little crazy there. I'll be honest. (1/10 of my story)a few years back (i was in Jr. High), there was a guy who was talking to four guys in our youth ministry about how his life was before he was saved. he was hooked on a couple of things, and he was a slave to movies, video-games, secular music, rpg's... That night he shared (Romans 6:14) with us, and explained what he did on the night he turned his life around. He went through his house and tore up his books, destroyed his games and R-rated videos (and he was an avid collector), and instead of giving them away, he threw everything out so that no one else would suffer by them. that week, i went through all of my stuff. I scratched all of my PC games and threw them out. (i never had any secular music though) Then a little while later, there was a card game that had been consuming all of my time. I got rid of the cards. I used to play in local soccer programs and at my school, and I used to be part of my school's ROTC program, but when these things got in the way of my serving at church they had to get out of the way. I used to be a football fan, but then i realized that football was just an advertising outlet. I can go on, and on, and on...God started to move in my life. I got a hold of a book by E.M. Bounds called Power through Prayer, and a devotional by Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest. (I was then entering High School)It was after all of this that the change began to happen. Now it's two years later and the most amazing things have happened. i understand that we must give up our idols, because i have. but others don't understand. i love it when i go to church and all we do is worship all night, but others don't understand yet. that is why we don't just pray and worship all night. i still have to go to school and live amongst students who don't understand. all i can do is pray and reach out to these students through the youth outreaches, because they really don't want God. and they remind me every day. some actually do things just to please themselves, with the motive of trying to hurt God, they try to show Him that they don't want Him. then there are those who think they know Him, but they have no clue. They keep on sinning, because they think Jesus doesn't actually want us to live like Him. (That is what religion does, it brainwashes children. But God gives us freedom.) (blah, blah, blah, i can keep on going.)It's tough, and my heart is constantly broken. I see people conforming all the time. But Christ reigns.