Universalism

As in Adam all died, so in Christ, all are made alive-- is this not true? Is it not true that Jesus died for all of our sins? So you throw at me some passages from Paul. Okay, sure. But how do you know that isn't against Jesus? So then you throw at me some passages from Jesus, well how do you know it was from Jesus? Furthermore, are you sure that Bible in your hands is as inerrant as you think it is? If so, and if you say revelation, what can you base that on if you presuppose that the Bible is already inerrant? Visions and dreams are experienced by Shamans as much as Christians. Because Universalism covers a broad array of issues-- i.e., most Universalists do not take the Bible as inerrant, we must cover these if we are to cover Universalism-- that essentially, all are universally saved and cleansed with the blood of Jesus either now or after death because of the gravity of Jesus' death-- that it being so so so so huge, that it is compelled to basically save everyone, no matter their standing in the now, due to the blood of Jesus.

Try not to be too broad.. "it's just all about faith" or "the Bible says so"... "it makes sense to me"... dig down deep into why you believe God has appointed (depending on your eschatological viewpoint) people to be saved through Jesus by an act of free-will (or compulsion, if your hyper-calvinstic leaning) only and that others will not be able to enter into this either due to election or choice and will be sentenced or sentence themselves to a eternity of Hell-fire separation from God because they refused to repent and turn to God during their short-lived lives.-- Is this seemingly culturally used as a moral 'control agent,' or whatnot and Hell just has no true validity, as many Universalists propose? Understand this view is rampant among American and English Evangelicism even though it may not be apparent on face-value.

Discuss, keep it friendly. :)

Jordan

O.K. lets try and reason it a little. First off you quoted scripture to prove your universalist stance. How do "YOU" know that that scripture you quoted is really scripture? What if it's not? Then the belief you propesed cannot be proven either.
Address this and then we can maybe move on.
God bless, John

Universalism-- that essentially, all are universally saved and cleansed with the blood of Jesus either now or after death because of the gravity of Jesus' death-- that it being so so so so huge, that it is compelled to basically save everyone, [b]no matter their standing in the now, due to the blood of Jesus[/b].

If I may since this argument can turn sour in a heartbeat:

Rom. 5.1 Paul says this:
[b]"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"[/b] Romans 5:1 (KJV)

[b]Q.[/b] Why is peace possible? [b]A.[/b] Because of His shed Blood.

If it can be seen that Paul is NOT just speaking to the Romans and that He means it applied to the righteous everywhere regardless of the knowledge of Jesus Christ. With that approach to our understanding permitted we can state simply the justified are those who have faith in God and have lived with whatever light of Him made real to them. I trust this simple faith in God is sufficient for my Yak shepherd friend in Siberia who died never hearing of the kingdom of God from a missionary or passing evangelist. I believe it is.

Jesus came to redeem the righteous and turn sinners from their wicked ways. Will the wicked turn from their wicked ways without a fear of God? If there is no faith in a God sufficient to establish the hope of redemption and people live without such a hope or by some other false hope, how can they be saved? Who will be turned to God? Who can He then to turn to Jesus? Will Jesus find faith when He returns? May the redeemed say so; speak of Him from their lives by be being "broken bread and poured out wine".

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? [b]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others[/b]"[/b] Luke 18:7-9 (KJV)

To whom is His shed Blood appied? The righteous everywhere; those who *live with the hope of redemption with a Godly testimony.

*live = keyword meaning to live out one's life in awe of God. He alone will be the judge of the heart of that individual.

[b]"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".[/b]

Rev. 20:12-13 (KJV)

Universalism? For the righteous everywhere? Yes.

:-)

Jesus came to redeem the righteous

Where does scripture say 'Jesus came to redeem the righteous'?

To whom is His shed Blood appied? The righteous everywhere;

Have I understood you correctly?

dorcas wrote:

Jesus came to redeem the righteous

Ormly,

Where does scripture say 'Jesus came to redeem the righteous'?

To whom is His shed Blood appied? The righteous everywhere;

The way you've worded this, you are saying people are righteous BEFORE the Blood is applied to them.

Have I understood you correctly?

If you read me properly you would have. Unfortunately you didn't.

crsschk wrote:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die,

even so [u]in Christ[/u] shall all be made alive.

Now we get down to what Jesus did for those who not only lived with the hope of redemption but even more so for those prviledged to live in this time called the "Church age" having to do with the new birth experience and His indwelling life made a reality to those who hunger and thirst.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

Indeed! And when resurrected many will not live with Him forever because of their wickedness and rebelliousness or otherwise rejection of God and His light given them from the beginning.

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

A message to present day company of disciples [b]capable of hearing[/b] the revelation of Christ to understand it as Paul lived it.

More of that revealed truth to those who have ears to hear:

2Co 5:16 [b]Wherefore[/b]henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2Co 5:17 [b]Therefore[/b] if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath [b]reconciled us to himself[/b] by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

And of the righteous with the hope of God within them he says:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This should be us:

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yes! [i]cf.[/i] John 17:20-23 (NASB-U)
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

And to whatever degree anyone everywhere, not just Israel, expressed[s] by their life to consist of believing in a God who sees all and is a rewarder of righteous works, is the degree to which they will be found in Him. Their acts of righteousness is the thing that will be judged either unto eternal life or eternal death.[gold, silver, hay, stuble] In this is God alone the revealer of the heart; the judge and rewarder and will be no respecter of persons in that day. [i]cf.[/i]Rev. 22.12

In this can be seen that evangelism ISN"T to be so much about the condition of the soul, though it is, but the ushering in of the kingdom of God and the making of disciples to it that the righteous soul can embrace that which he has hoped for and rejoices for its arrival to his understanding ---street preaching notwithsatnding.

Of course let it be clear that all this is my understanding. I don't believe I violate anyone elses.

Great selection of scripture, crsschk!

:-D :-D

If you read me properly you would have. Unfortunately you didn't.

I have no idea what and how you believe your response has contributed to my understanding.

Sorry. Perhaps you didn't understand my questions?

I will reword them if required.

crsschk wrote:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This articulation has great meaning to me personally, had almost forgotten of it while drawing out all these references ... About a year and a half ago and have made mention of this elsewhere, but, had been doing some work around Los Angles, a very exhausting time, a world wind of activity. It was the first time meeting up with Greg (Who runs this site for everyone else) as well as another unseen brother who frequents here and is also a outdoor preacher to the homeless ...

But it was on the plane trip back, musing and thanking God for everything that had transpired, a great peace and a great ... depletion, a sense of being spiritually spent, a sweet joy and a great love .. just quiet, restful worship and prayer. Cannot say honestly that I 'hear' from the Lord in some of the more often expressed ways often, it is usually more of the 'impression' of things ... I digress. I asked the Lord; "Lord, what [i]is it[/i] that You are doing"? And by that meant not my personal circumstance but everywhere. And the return was as loud as it gets and the fastidiousness of response grabbed me; "I am reconciling the world unto Myself".

I was dumbfounded and just wept. Praise God.

Oh that we might see and understand beyond what we believe to be because of our traditional way that does not speak of intimacy, the heart, but legalism, the letter, that we call it "faith".

May God help us to see it, crsschk.

:-) :-(

ginnyrose wrote:
Ormly wrote:

I trust this simple faith in God is sufficient for my Yak shepherd friend in Siberia who died never hearing of the kingdom of God from a missionary or passing evangelist. I believe it is.

To declare a person like this redeemed is a form of judging. To determine a person's eternal destiny belongs to the realm of God, not ours nor anyone else's, including Ormly.

It might be of interest to you to know that God knows who will accept him and He can and does reveal Himself to persons who are beyond the reach of the Gospel. We do not know how often it happens - people familar with the Muslim world will tell you it is still happening - but there are some documented cases. Consider: Sammy Morris - the black boy from Africa in the early 1900s; Jayapradha Bendela, FL - a six year old girl from India (still living, is now in her 50s AND she is planning to come see us in a month!!); Bilquis Sheikh, the Muslim lady from Pakistan. Bilquis descrbed this event/process in her book "I Dared to Call Him Father".

Since God knows who will respond to him, He will supernaturally reveal himself to the unreachable at the proper time. God is bigger and greater then man and is not limited by man's limitations. This however, does not cancel Jesus' last command: "Go ye...teach all nations.." Matthew 28:19

ginnyrose

Its so nice to know someone agrees with you but even nicer if they recognise it. Oh well, can't have it all, I suppose, half is better than nothing.

:-(

Hi all, I don't say "too much" on here so therefore if I'm putting this in the wrong area, I'm sorry. I'm going to venture out.

I investigated Universalism a few years ago and have kinda poked at it since Carlton Pierson went to that side but I'm still not sold that this is "the way." I mean, what if you are wrong and someone you should have sounded the alarm to and told them to repent - you didn't and therefore, they lost their soul? Their blood is on your hands.

I've been on many religious "bandwagons" in my time but I think we need to be careful about this one. I received an email this week and because of it, I just unsubscribed because of a statement someone made in it.

A man called Tim W. wrote this in one of the universalist emails I recieved. If this is how they truly believe, I can't subscribe to this belief....

My life has changed, and I've experienced so much freedom in my soul and in my
mind. Understanding God's infinite Love continues to baffle and liberate me
more every day.

Because I'm a pianist, and a Southern Gospel Music lover - I take the ferry over
to a nearby City about once a month or so to help a Gay Affirming church there
with their music. I've had several conversations, and visits with the Pastor
who is a friend of mine - and, have come to observe some things that just make
me shake my head.

1. While wanting to embrace freedom from the law (especially where sexual
orientation is concerned), they still hang on to the need for repentance and
salvation. Every Sunday night, a call is made to say the "Sinner's Prayer".
They can't seem to realize that even this very requirement is the act of mixing
law with grace.

Tim W's statement ended.

This is what got me, "they still hang on to the need for repentance and salvation." If this is the crux of what they believe, then they are headed down the wrong path, imho.

Joel 2.12
“ Now, therefore,” says the LORD, “ Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Acts 26:19-20
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Lisa

Does anyone know whether Univesalists believe in hell?

ginnyrose,
I've been busy lately (currently on vacation, you could say) so I'm sorry for not responding to anyone's questions sooner...

I am asking these questions as someone who is just asking them... I don't take an active stand on Universalism, if that is what you were wondering, but I am interested in discussing it nonetheless.

dorcas,
From my understanding, Universalists for the majority do not believe in Hell. But there are a lot that believe Hell is a temporary place for people that have lived unreconciled to God-- and then God works on their soul in Hell. But God sending people to an eternity in Hell? That's simple atheism, the Universalist would say.

thingsabove,
(incase you fail to recognize, I am writing as a Universalist for the sake of the discussion, not really as myself)
I don't take what I quoted as really Scripture, because the Bible was written by erroneous men, one cannot take it as the very Word of God, literally. And thus one must use reason (logos) in identifying their theology. It is not black and white. Not much can be proved from the Bible thus, but much can be proved from reason (science, for example). To the Universalist, the Bible is to be taken more as a bunch of fairy-tales put together, nothing more. So one can use it to illustrate a point, but one does not take it as de facto God's word. So it doesn't change the Universalist's stance because the stance of the Universalist is based on reason, science, or the mind, and not on what the Bible says. To them reason says that God, the God they believe in to be all-merciful, is not going to punish the wicked to eternal hell-fire no matter their sin.

Chariot,
And then how are you aware that that revelation is God's and not your own making? Are you ever able to come to a point where you *know* that God has revealed Himself to you? Most people would say that's unedifying to ponder, and futile to discuss. But I would like to say that it is not.

Jordan

jordanamo wrote:
ginnyrose,
I've been busy lately (currently on vacation, you could say) so I'm sorry for not responding to anyone's questions sooner...

I am asking these questions as someone who is just asking them... I don't take an active stand on Universalism, if that is what you were wondering, but I am interested in discussing it nonetheless.

dorcas,
From my understanding, Universalists for the majority do not believe in Hell. But there are a lot that believe Hell is a temporary place for people that have lived unreconciled to God-- and then God works on their soul in Hell. But God sending people to an eternity in Hell? That's simple atheism, the Universalist would say.

thingsabove,
(incase you fail to recognize, I am writing as a Universalist for the sake of the discussion, not really as myself)
I don't take what I quoted as really Scripture, because the Bible was written by erroneous men, one cannot take it as the very Word of God, literally. And thus one must use reason (logos) in identifying their theology. It is not black and white. Not much can be proved from the Bible thus, but much can be proved from reason (science, for example). To the Universalist, the Bible is to be taken more as a bunch of fairy-tales put together, nothing more. So one can use it to illustrate a point, but one does not take it as de facto God's word. So it doesn't change the Universalist's stance because the stance of the Universalist is based on reason, science, or the mind, and not on what the Bible says. To them reason says that God, the God they believe in to be all-merciful, is not going to punish the wicked to eternal hell-fire no matter their sin.

Chariot,
And then how are you aware that that revelation is God's and not your own making? Are you ever able to come to a point where you *know* that God has revealed Himself to you? Most people would say that's unedifying to ponder, and futile to discuss. But I would like to say that it is not.
Jordan

Since man's reasoning is as shifting sand, your standing with it seems quite foolish; futile at best. Surely, with your certainty about things, especially the Bible and its testimony of those who have dealt with God, you can come up with a better deal for yourself. Gird up your loins and be a man. Begin by thinking.

Gah, I thought I might be taken wrongly... let me reiterate, I do not believe in Universalism. I only said that sort of to be an 'devil's advocate' for the sake of the discussion, sorry for not being more clear!

Not being the devil's advocate now, :-) the Universalist follows his reason, his mind, which by default is already corrupted by the fall, and thus the reason he uses will never amount to anything. His reason might even make sense, and may have certain "facts" to back it up. However, we must have God's reason (logos) imputed & imparted unto us-- i.e., born again. The failure of the Universalist is thus hubris-- pride, ultimately. He fails to recognize that his reason amounts to nothing, that he is in need of the Savior's cleansing. This is why so few of the intellectuals (or, "rich"), comparatively, are saved, and so many of the poor and meek come to know Jesus.

IT is an age-old debate though. One cannot really refute what a Universalist says, because his basis is on the corrupted man's reason. The only way I suppose you could refute him would be to show him God's reason laid throughout in the Bible, pray that God puts His reason upon his heart, and then let him choose for himself which God he will serve. The God of the Bible: mysterious, sovereign, just, virtuous, holy, mysterious, righteous, true, and again, mysterious. His ways are not our ways. But the god of the Universalist is one of the flesh, the god that makes sense to the human, dead, mind.

This "god" has crept into most of the church. It is the "god" that they presume to worship come sunday-morning. Universalism is more universal than the Church of Universalism or the Unitarian Universalists, it is found in most churches, right at the pulpit. "he" may be found in the scriptures, twisted & diluted, and "they" will enjoy and drink of "his" cup, "they" will go through "his" 'communion', go through "his" 'praise' and this "god" will do as much as the gods of old, nothing but miraculous gimmicks-- but this god is will never be as mysterious, awe-ful, holy, and righteous as Yahweh.

"he" doesn't make sense to us Christians. "he" is not worthy to be served. It is like someone from a different family saying that their father is your father. We, though, know and hear our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be His name. His kingdom shall come, His will shall be done. In earth, as it is in Heaven. Amen. :-)

Jordan