A Question for Calvinists

Yesterday at church a man who is Reformed in his theology was talking about his salvation. He said that for many years he was in the church, but was living a double life. He mentioned being a womanizer for those years and that he was in adultery. He went on to say that when he was in his 30's when he was truly converted. Then he brought up this question: "Why didn't God save me earlier? Why did he let me treat my wife this way for so long?" His understanding was that he could not be saved for all those years because salvation is solely the work of God.

My question:

Is this true Calvinism?

If so, does this not appear to put the responsiblity for his sins all those years on God?

Steve

SteveNoel wrote:
If so, does this not appear to put the responsiblity for his sins all those years on God?

That's not Calvinism. That statement that is quoted above isn't Calvinism.

I personally am a 4.5 Calvinist. I believe in most of their beliefs except one. (I'll keep that to myself)

Think of it this way. When you go watch a movie. Did the director make any major mistakes in the film? (Don't think with critical judgement and think logically) So, logically speaking the answer would be NO. (Critically speaking would be 'humans are falliable', but in this case the Director is GOD)

God DESIGNED EVERYONE, from Hilter to Stalin, to Jesus to Adam, to Billy Graham to You and me. God designed EVERYONE and put us in our PERFECT time to exist.(Ever wonder why you weren't born during Jesus' time?)

My first question (which I will answer) would be, Who created you? Yourself, your parents, or God. Parents and God right? No. The answer is ONLY God. Why? Because He is at the ROOT of it. Without God, NONE would be here. Not anyone.

God was absolute perfect before He created anything in Gen. 1. But He chose (Why, i don't know) to make a beautiful story. Mankind falls and Christ saves it (at least part of it).

It was God's will for Adam to fall. You say no (at least an Arminian would). Well, Does man have more power than God? No. Then why would you dare say that man does? Because saying it was not God's will for 'Adam to fall' says that. Then if it wasn't God's will Adam WOULD NOT have fallen.

Honestly. If God is in ABSOLUTE control. Then, why would you say that 'God messed up'(Saying Adam's sin wasn't in God's will) cause, umm, if I'm not mistaken He is perfect and not like us.

WE are the clay. He is the potter. Can the clay move? Nope. Can the clay form itself? Nope. Can the clay do things it's way? Nope.

We're not robots. We are humans, absolutly controlled by God. And His authority is hard to see sometimes, but it still doesn't miss His sovernity.

I personally, am VERY VERY zealous for the gospel and Christ. Why? If "God is in control". Well, honestly, I was DESIGNED THAT WAY and 2, Loving God,others,Christians and the Great Commission among others were COMMANDED BY GOD.

Are we accountable for our sin? Yes. You can't point the finger back at God. Never. Never. Never. If you say you can, then you'll probly be in hell. (Cause you have no reverance for the True and Living God)

Predesitined doesn't mean 'foreknowledge' it means DESIGNED according to HIS ultimate purpose. (At least it does to me)

Now. After I've spoken this. I say this. That God being in ABSOLUTE control should be a burden lifter. Why? Cause who the Son sets free is free indeed. Because when you lose ur house and car and job, who is in control? Me! Ha! No, God, Sir! And He works things out.

Think what you must, but debating, and trying to figure out this [b]C vs. A[/b] thing is meaningless. Christ didn't call ANYONE to debate doctrine like this topic has been over the past few decades. How do I know? Because EVERYONE of those that debate this are sinning above their own knowledge? How? (You might ask) They forgetten the 1st 3 commandments of Christ. Love God, others AND Christians (yes, that is a commandment, written more than the first 2, in the NT)

So, my voice is spoken. Only because I'm tired of the Immaturity and the spirit of these discussions. On SI and in real life. They are UTTERLY MEANINGLESS.

You say 'we gain knowledge'. No my brother/sister, you gain hatred, you gain wounds, you gain sorrows and you LOSE a brother/sister in Christ.

And just to throw another 'curve ball' at ya. What was the first sin of mankind? It was eating the fruit of the ......... of good and evil.

The what? .........

K - N - O - W - L - E - D - G - E

Hmm, I can hear it now... the brothers saying 'My people perish because of lack of knowledge'.

Hmm, Good point right? Uhh...No! It's not "knowledge" in general that caused Israel to be destoryed. it was the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. The 1st commandment. Throughout that book, it says 'You have forgotten God, you've forsaken Him, etc' It's one of the dominating themes of that book.

Brothers/sisters, please, i urge you and everyone, to GROW past this. GROW GROW GROW.

I love you and I'm weeping for your Grow, which Lord willing will happen.

Then he brought up this question: "Why didn't God save me earlier? Why did he let me treat my wife this way for so long?" His understanding was that he could not be saved for all those years because salvation is solely the work of God.

"Why did [i]I[/i] treat my wife this way for so long?"

That is the real and only question that matters.

Because of choice and ignorance of what God says a wife is. Because we choose to. Because Satan knows what a wife is supposed to be and he is apposed to anything the shows the Love of God. Because we are of our father the devil.

Husbands love your wives. Impossible. Wives submit to and honor your husbands. Impossible. I know no husband that loves his wife the way Jesus loved the body of Christ the Church and gave himself for her. I know no wife that honors and submits to her husband as she is supposed to, to Christ.

There is only one hope for husband and wife, that is, in Christ are they able to even have any capacity to love or submit as Christ does.
If, that is IF, a husband and wife have Christ in them and they have learned to love God by the Christ that is in them, then they have a chance. If a husband see's Christ in himself and knows that he was crucified with Christ on the Cross and is dead to sin and knows he was resurrected with Christ and is now living by the faith of the Son of God that is in him, he may have the ability to see this same Christ in his wife and love her by Him and through Him and with Him. The same goes for the wife.

It is not God that makes us not love, it's our own choice to not love. God tempts no man or makes no man sin, that is what man is. Christ is the only chance any person has to be able to be what God proved His Son to be, that is His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased.

Learn the Christ that is in you and you may be able to see the Christ that is in your wife or husband or children and able to love them the way Christ love's you.

In Christ: Phillip

"(#1) Why didn't God save me earlier? (#2) Why did he let me treat my wife this way for so long?"

1. First off, that man should be absolutely thankful for even being saved in the first place... let alone after all that he's done. God doesn't owe us anything. That man didn't deserve to be saved just like the rest of us.

2. In his permissive will he allowed it to take place for his glory. That that man may be brought to repentance for the sickness of his heart.

You shouldn't blame God for the evil in your own heart. Calvinists are to take full responsibility for thier own wickedness, giving God the glory due to Him in gratitude.

mmm why did god let that happend? that is a question i often used to ask myself, and still do sometimes...but i now refrase it why is this nesesary god? what must i see/do/understand, and why you in your wicked carnal state treated your wife badly, well why was becuse you were evil! and besides from gods mercy and grace you would still be, and if the holy spirit dident restrain you you probaly would have treated her even worse.... God knows what is best, this is just my little mind thinking, god prabaly have a much greater plan for you, but when me for example , me and my wife have fighted and ive treated her very bad in the past, but now not so, but now i can be a living testimony from that evil to christ share goodness and grace and what he has done in my life,

Hi SteveNoel,

you asked

If so, does this not appear to put the responsiblity for his sins all those years on God

I can see where it can appear that way for sure! It is definitely a question I have grappled with myself.

Maybe there is another way we could ask this question though. For instance, what if we asked: does God owe us [b]anything[/b] [u]good[/u]? Or even further, couldn't we ask: doesn't God [b]only owe us[/b] to repay us for our sins?

These are pretty heavy questions to ask ourselves but what really does God owe to us?

Well, didn't Adam have the opportunity to [b]choose[/b] eternal life?

And didn't the choosen peoples Israel have the opportunity to [b]merit[/b] eternal life? Even that righteous man Moses transgressed against God!

Were not these worthy representatives of us both before and after our fall?

Well, maybe someone would object to having such representatives and I can understand the urge to do so, but I would ask them, must they not then also object to having a representative such as Christ, for sins and for justification?

Too, I think I see in scripture where the Lord Jesus answers this sort of objection in the Pharisees where He says

[b][color=660033] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, [u]we would not have been[/u] partakers with them in the blood of the prophets....[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033]....[u]Wherefore[/u] ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are [u]the children[/u] of them which killed the prophets.[/color][/b]

Is the same not true of us as well, if we sin and yet say

If I would have been in Adam's place I surely would have choosen to live

Well, these are just some thoughts as I have grappled with these things also. I hope they are helpfull.

Love in Christ,

Chris

One of the major misconceptions about Calvinists is that we are all fatalists. This is just not the case.

My will is my will and it is free from any and all external influences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God. My will
however is a slave to my desires and understanding. When I was regenerated through the work of God, he changed my desires and my understanding. I gained new desires to seek, serve and love God. Also, my understanding of who God is changed as well.

So, as a Christian, my will is still free from any and all external influcences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God. My will however now sees God for who he is truly.

Praise be to God, great things he has done, so loved he the world that he gave us his son, who yeilded his life in atonement for sin and opened the lifegate that all may go in. Praise the Lord!

I'm sorry but the traditional view of Calvanism doesn't support the concept of "freewill". Sadly some people may add too much or take too much off of the five points of calvanism. Holding to them doesn't make you a fatalist. Taking them to an extreme against the bible's teachings makes you a hyper-calvanist. Point is God is soveregn whether we acknowledge that or not.

No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God.

My will however now sees God for who he is truly.

This was a question for calvinists not arminians.

I'm sorry but the traditional view of Calvanism doesn't support the concept of "freewill".

GraceAlone, I respectfully disagree with this statement and offer the following website as my proof.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Sadly some people may add too much or take too much off of the five points of calvanism. Holding to them doesn't make you a fatalist. Taking them to an extreme against the bible's teachings makes you a hyper-calvanist. Point is God is soveregn whether we acknowledge that or not.

I agree completely.

GraceAlone, you believe that God changes our Will.
My understanding is that our Will is free from external influnces, but is a slave to our desires and understanding. Jeremiah 17:9 speaks of the unregenerate person, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" The answer is...God. Ezekiel 36:25-27 speaks of God gives us 'a heart of flesh and removes our heart of stone'.

We both agree that God is soverign, but my understanding of traditional Calvinism is that man has always had a 'Free Will'. This Free Will was tainted in the Fall of Adam and is not able to reach out to God because it is in bondage to our desires. When God regenerates us, our desires change and our understanding of who God is changes. Therefore our Free Will now is able to respond to him.

This was a question for calvinists not arminians.

I am not sure if this was directed toward myself, but if it is then I must say that I strongly believe in the Doctrine of Grace.

interesting brethren...

it seems to me that God is sovereign in all, our free will is not outside His will as a result all things work together for His glory. to me this is open and shut, my will is subject to God's will and while it may seem that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive on this side, the truth is they are not. they both serve God in Him glorifying Himself. there is no contradiction in God's mind on this matter so there should be none in our either.

consider this, the word tells us that Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life and nobody get's to the Father except by Him. the word also tells us in the gospel of John chapt 6 ( i think) vs 65 that no man comes to Christ except the Father draws Him...it seems to me everything rests on the will of the Father more so than our own will...then we look at Romans 9 and it talks of how God picked Jacob over Esau BEFORE the 2 were born and hand opportunity to do anything. some may say "well God knew Esau would sell his birthright for some bean stew" no, the truth is Esau sold His birthright because God rejected him in the first place. God doesn't react to what we do, we more according to how He has decided things to be. Romans 9 tells us that we were called from before the setting of the foundation of the earth...again some may argue that "God knew we would pick Him" but we picked Him because He chose us from before the setting of the foundations of the earth, furthermore NOBODY can come to Christ (and proceed to the Father) unless the Father calls Him...seems to me God has this on lock. then also we know that the Spirit of God is at work in those of us who are His, His Spirit, not our own while the spirit of the enemy works in the sons of disobedience. none of us had a choice in being born slaves to sin and none of us would have known any better unless God quickened us to it. again some may say "well people may use this as an excuse to sit on their butts saying well God will take care of it all" you can sit on your butt if you want to, i'm gonna try and see what God would have me do and do that.

i guess we are free to do whatever God has decided we ought to do...at least that's how i see it...

IRONMAN wrote:
to me this is open and shut, my will is subject to God's will and while it may seem that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive on this side, the truth is they are not. they both serve God in Him glorifying Himself. there is no contradiction in God's mind on this matter so there should be none in our either.

That sounds beautiful. My question to dwell on this point would be, "Are the actors in a movie subject to the Director?" Answer = Completely. Because if the actor messes up the movie, they are 'cut' out of the play. (Slain in the Spirit, real term, not the pentacostal tradition, i.e. dead)

God doesn't react to what we do, we more according to how He has decided things to be.

True.

none of us had a choice in being born slaves to sin and none of us would have known any better unless God quickened us to it.

True.

again some may say "well people may use this as an excuse to sit on their butts saying well God will take care of it all" you can sit on your butt if you want to, i'm gonna try and see what God would have me do and do that.

Yes, let's give God all our heart in all we do.

Dorcas,

The Biblical response is that they 'would not because they can't."

One thing that amazes me is that Jesus spoke in parables. Why wasn't he clearer in his teaching?

The answer is found in Matthew 13:

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

The question is, Why were these people's hearts calloused?

sis Dorcas

Do we not, here, see God being bound by man's will?

this is true and you've brought up an important point. at the end of the day, God is still sovereign and how He has it all under control is beyond me, He just does. we can't escape the fact that if you read Romans 9 and some other of Pauls letter's he speaks of how the saints were chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the earth...

(Just for the record, I think it is perverse and hard to support the idea that God makes people turn Him away.

in Romans 9 Paul says

[b]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

this is the bottom line, if God has in fact chosen ahead of time whom He will draw to Himself and whom HE will reject, what can you or i do about it? if God hardened the heart of pharaoh, what's to keep Him from doing that to anyone else? and then is Esau was hated of God before he did anything, who could stop God from doing so with anyone else?

but in general 'the people' know the word of God when they hear it, and respond to Him, and those who reject the word of God, He gives up to a reprobate mind

if one rejects God it is because God hasn't drawn him/her to Himself. JOhn 6 65 tells us:

[b]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

then in vs 66 we see that most of those around Him left as a result of them not being drawn by the Father

[b]6:66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.[/b]

being given over to reprobate mind is a judgement however, unless God Himself moves to draw you from it, nothing will happen. the issue here is that there is nothing man can do apart from God. the word tells us that without Christ we are and can do nothing but we can do all things through Him.

like i said to me it's open and shut, God is sovereign in all, He's called me to be a vessel of mercy, i'm not concerned with the mechanics of it, just concerned about what i need to do. i think maybe though our perception of what free will is in relation to God's will is warped hence the either/or. it's both, the 2 work hand in hand for one purpose, glorifying the Maker of all things. and brothers and sisters this IS the bottom line, Paul says so in Ephesians that the purpose of the Church is to show God's manifold wisdom to the powers of the air.

The short version is that it is by God's grace that all men are saved through faith--and this faith is not of ourselves but is itself a gift from God. Salvation is not by works so that no man may boast that he has saved himself.

The long version can be found here:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm

what is a "Calvinist"?

Most people reject the doctrine of God's sovergnity because they are appalled at the idea that God is sovergn. Still, just think about the consequences of this rationalization. What if God was all-powerful and you called Him "perverse" for being all-powerful? This is a touchy subject that I believe is very crucial to viewing God.

Romans 9:22
"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,"

Gods sovergnly in control. The idea that we deserve grace is the heart of the issue... We don't deserve grace by any means. If God, by his good decree kept me from ever coming to faith I would have deserved it. Still, God choose me before the foundations of the earth and decreed that He would reveal Himself to little old undeserving me.

Well... Why would God command something that we couldn't possibly do without His grace? Here's the answer: You are capable with His grace! Lazarus couldn't arise from the dead without God's help!

By the way if God wanted everybody in heaven He is all-powerful and cound've done that. If sinners could choose then why would God let them choose death if He doesn't want them to go to hell?

God chose in His secret decree for His glory to be shown in salvation and damnation: both done in accordance with justice and righteousness.

This should move us to preaching the clear and true gospel for the elect to hear and come. If it was up to me to change everbody's heart then all would be going to hell. Only God can save by grace. This should keep us from trying to manipulate the gospel to bring forth professions. I want to bring forth true converts.

Listen to John MacArthur's series on the doctrine of election [url=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=10/3/2006]Here![/url] Or read John's sermons on election on [url=http://biblebb.com/mac-a-g.htm]this page.[/url]

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Acts 13:48
"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

www.cornerstoneorlando.org
www.gty.org