The image of the beast

[b]Rev 13:14[/b] [color=990000]And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the signs which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword, and lived.[/color]
A better translation of this would be: “giving speeches to those dwelling on the earthto appoint or ordain a figure or representative to the beast....

[b]Rev 13:15[/b] [color=990000]And was given to it to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak, (And was given to it that it) might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.[/color]
This is saying that the beast gives authority to the ordained figure or representative to make what he says to be the law of the beast. Furthermore the Beast makes law that whoever does not give respectful submission or yield to the judgment, opinion, will, to the ordained figure would be put to death.

Quote: "This is saying that the beast gives authority to the ordained figure or representative to make what he says to be the law of the beast. Furthermore the Beast makes law that whoever does not give respectful submission or yield to the judgment, opinion, will, to the ordained figure would be put to death."

Setting himself up as god with the whole earth under his law, like the old testament Israel of God under His Law. This has nothing to do with the Body of Christ who are already Seated with Christ in the Father's House having brought His Bride to His Father's House.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
This has nothing to do with the Body of Christ who are already Seated with Christ in the Father's House having brought His Bride to His Father's House.

Brother,

How is that you find the church still on earth at this time? Those who believe after the rapture are not of the "church" but individual ententes. Not counting the 144,000 sealed Jews.

I am open to a different interpretation but this is the only one I know.

Doug...please forgive my entering into this conversation but I was wondering if you could tell me how to download MP3 files from this site to the Ipod...I have tried everything I know w/o success and I can't find any directions on the web site. When I right click on a file it reads "visit" and doesn't download anything. Ideas? Suggestions? tks. jg

By the way, I believe in pre-wrath rapture.

Chapter 14 is the next Capter
[b]Rev 14:1[/b] [color=990000]And I looked and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and amidst Him were the hundred and forty four thousands, with the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.[/color] (Ref. 7:5-8)
[b]]Note:[/b] If we should take “the Lamb as symbolic, we should also take that Mount Zion is too.
Sometimes Scripture calls all of Jerusalem or even the church "Zion" or "Mt. Zion".

This coinsides with the other 144000 in Chapter 7:

The 144000 is an analogy, it is not a list of the tribes of Israel. Notice that, Even though Reuben is the firstborn instead of Judah, it begins with the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and was the firstborn from the dead He is put first. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [b]Col 1:15,18[/b]. [color=990000]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:[/color]

Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens’ [b]1Chron 5:1[/b] Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother.

Priests never inherited any land; [b]Jos 14:3[/b]. For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them. The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [b]1Peter 2:9[/b] [color=990000]But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:[/color]

This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that God has put his approval on them. [b]2Corinth 1:22[/b] [color=990000]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.[/color] [b]Eph 1:13[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 4:30 and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/color]

This is how the Tribes are placed in [b]Revelation 7:5-8[/b]
I will put the tribes’ actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

The first name is Judah. #4.

The second name is Reuben. #1.

The third one is called Gad. #8.

The fourth name is Asher. #9.

The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

The sixth name is Manasseh.

The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

The eighth name is Levi. #3.

The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

Remember, there is no actually no tribe of Joseph, but there is here. He gave his inheritance to his sons. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

This is the true Israel of God Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, God will then move His attention to Israel once again and Israel will be completed and saved. [b]Romans 2:29[/b] [color=990000]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/color] [b]Rom 11:15-32[/b] [color=990000]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? [b]:16[/b] For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. [b]:17[/b] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [b]:18[/b] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. [b]:19[/b] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. [b]:20[/b] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear [b]:21[/b] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [b]:22[/b] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [b]:23[/b] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. [b]:24[/b] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? [b]:25[/b] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [b]until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. :26[/b] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [b]:27[/b] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [b]:28[/b] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [b]:29[/b] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [b]:30][/b] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [b]:31[/b] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [b]:32[/b] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/color]

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
Let’s do some math.
12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

bro Doug

How is that you find the church still on earth at this time? Those who believe after the rapture are not of the "church" but individual ententes. Not counting the 144,000 sealed Jews.

because judgement begins in the house of the Lord before it goes out to the world. also read the letters to the 7 Churches. 5 of the 7 have things to repent of or else Christ will come in judgement of them. also we are admonished by Christ to endure till the end. Personally if judgement begins with us as the word says, we will not be raptured untill after that judgement comes. obviously the world deserves the judgment that is due it, but we are also richly deserving of God's wrath because we should know better. Part of the reason of why the world is as it is has to do with us not being as we ought thereby giving the world no reason to repent because we ourselves have lost our savour as the salt of the earth...

i must ask though, why are we looking to be raptured out of here? i pray we are not trying to escape our responsibilities here before they are done because we will be sorely disappointed. the danger is that most saints seem to think they can chill and be raptured. the arguement i've heard is Jesus is not going to have a beaten and bloodied bride up there...well He's not going to accept a raggedy one such as we are now either so we WILL go through the Refiner's fire. if it is tribulation then so be it, one way or another we have to get cleaned.

i don't think the rapture will be as big an event as most think because during those days of judgement there will be many saints here or else Christ would not have told us not to take the mark or spoken of those who would be martyred in those days as being the ones to rule with Him 1000 yrs.

Noah was raptured through the flood, not whisked away from it and it seems to me that God has set that as a precedent so we should expect to be raptured through. even when God judged Israel in the old days, many righteous men suffered alongside their unrighteous brothers, like Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Daniel and so on. if God is the same yesterday today and forever, then it is obvious we have to suffer to be cleansed first.

from Revelation 7
b]13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b]

Whether God achieves this through the Tribulation or not is of no consequence. we have to come through tribulation to have our robes washed clean in the blood of the lamb.

brethren, if we are raptured then it is all good, we have nothing to worry about, but if we are not raptured, how will you feel and what will you do? i feel we ought to stop and seriously consider that for ourselves.

I respectfully encourage all to listen to the mp3's provided on this site by Edgar Parkyns on Revelation. They are very eye opening sermons on Revelation and the end times as well as church history.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=133

Hi Logic,

I now see why our interpretations concerning end times event is so different. It is not the event, rather our views of these events. I interpret whenever possible all scripture literally.

Note: If we should take “the Lamb as symbolic, we should also take that Mount Zion is too.

I do not take this Lamb or Mount Zion as being symbolic. God did not speak to believers in some mysterious way. No, they were simple men, Galilean fishermen at that, who were not theologians. Hence the simplicity of the parables.

You may know all ready that I hold to neither pre, post, mid, or pan trib theories. I follow the tree commands Messiah did give in the Olivet discourse.

Watchful- Matt. 24:38

Ready- Matt. 24:44

Obedient- Matt 24:46

These are the only definite's I can find as spoken commands given by our King. When the caught up occurs is not that important to me as it is to some.

May I ask if you have ever consulted the early church leaders, Pre A.D. 33, so as to see how they interpreted the end times? I know that they held to eminent return. This can be found in the "Didache". See www.scrollpublishing.com

Got to go for now.

In Christ, bro Doug

Dougmore wrote:

I do not take this Lamb or Mount Zion as being symbolic.

Here is when you should interpret this scripture not literally, but symbolicly. Otherwise, you have a litteral lamb on a mountain for who knows what purpose. Further more, you have 144000 men having a litteral lamb's dad's name written on their foreheads.

Logic,

Allow me to better explain myself. I know that the "Lamb" is Christ for, "behold the 'Lamb' of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29

Get my drift?

That part of the passage has been already expounded on else where in the scriptures.

Note: As are the "literal" tribes of Israel. Hence, my literal interpretation.

Who are the tribes then? They are the tribes! Not to complex nor so far out in this interpretation. I'm not a big fan of that Left Behind guy but I did enjoy Ray Stedmends commentary on Revelation. He would be in agreement with this interpretation/application.

The best commentary on the NT is the OT. I think you will also find the tribes as being "Hebrews" there as well.

I'm not fond of replacing prophecies concerning Israel with the Church. Two totally separate ententes. We mustn't mix this key to prophetic interpretation up. That's how you get "Pre-wrath" interpretations! Just messing with you...

I did enjoy your latter post... :lol:

In Christ, bro Doug

Hi Ironman,

Noah was raptured through the flood, not whisked away from it

Don't know if you are aware of the pre-tribers use of this verse or not. Nevertheless they would say that Noah was kept above the judgement while in the ark.

I was raised a pre-triber so it is really the only interpretation I know. Until recently did I decide to look into the matter myself and turned from the dogmatic's of any rapture view.

What did you think about my view concerning the rapture?

"You may know all ready that I hold to neither pre, post, mid, or pan trib theories. I follow the tree commands Messiah did give in the Olivet discourse.

Watchful- Matt. 24:38

Ready- Matt. 24:44

Obedient- Matt 24:46

These are the only definite's I can find as spoken commands given by our King. When the caught up occurs is not that important to me as it is to some."

I feel an ever greater importance on a holy life, in or out of the tribulation. And therefore am finding less importance in end times events and more on holiness.

In Christ Jesus, bro Doug

Logic wrote:
Dougmore wrote:

I do not take this Lamb or Mount Zion as being symbolic.

Surly, there wil not be a literal lamb standing on Mount Zion? Baaaaa.
Lamb is symbolic for Jesus as Mount Zion is symbolic for Israel or Jerusalem.

Here is when you should interpret this scripture not literally, but symbolicly. Otherwise, you have a litteral lamb on a mountain for who knows what purpose. Further more, you have 144000 men having a litteral lamb's dad's name written on their foreheads.

what would the problem be having a lamb on a mountain? or a lambs dad's name on the forhead of 144000 men? it seems to me God can do as He pleases even if it doesn't make sense in our minds but let us remember that John saw these things. it seems to me most things God does don't make much sense in our minds but do they have to?

i guess i just see it as mostly literal because i have no other reason to look at it any other way. nonetheless God will make plain whatever needs to be made plain.

bro Doug
i guess i'm a pan tribber because it will all pan out and as you said our Lord called to live HOly lives pleasing and acceptable to HIm so whether we endure the tribulation or not His grace is sufficient for us to do so.

IRONMAN wrote:

what would the problem be having a lamb on a mountain? or a lambs dad's name on the forhead of 144000 men? it seems to me God can do as He pleases even if it doesn't make sense in our minds but let us remember that John saw these things. it seems to me most things God does don't make much sense in our minds but do they have to?

i guess i just see it as mostly literal because i have no other reason to look at it any other way. nonetheless God will make plain whatever needs to be made plain.

You have every reason to look at it another way. If you have a dream from God and it doesn't make sense. How would that be comunicating anything to you? God will give [b]meaning[/b] to the dream, just as He hsa in his Word.

God always makes sense!

It isn't to be exactly as what the vision shows, think of all the dreems and visions throught out the Bible.
Josephs' dream, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to him.
What does the [u]symbols[/u] [b]mean[/b]?
They arent literal sun, moon, stars. They are his father, mother, & brothers.

What does the Lamb that stands on Mt. zion [b]mean[/b]?
It is Jesus standing on His covenant. Not a literal lamb grazing on a mountain.

bro Logic

Wrong, things God does must make much sense in our minds, otherwise there is no relationship.

not necessarily. if you're married (i think you are for some reason) does everything your wife does make sense to you? is the converse also true? maybe this is just at my house! :-P but my wife and i still have a relationship! bless God for that.

i think of when for example moses had to hold his arms up for the Israelites to win that one battle. when he did, they won, when his hands fell they lost. God told him to do that and didn't explain why, moses just did it. even joshua was told to march around Jericho a total of 13 times, i don't think it made any sense to him but he did it. God doesn't owe us anything, He is God and what He says goes, unless we think we have a better idea.

You have every reason to look at it another way. If you have a dream from God and it doesn't make sense. How would that be comunicating anything to you? God will give meaning to the dream, just as He hsa in his Word.

what about when one speaks in an unknown tongue and edifies himself? when God has me pray in tongues, i don't understand a lick of what Holy Spirit is saying through me but my inner man is built up nonetheless. Some things it seems to me are beyond the grasp of our minds like predestination and free will...

point taken about Joseph. i wonder though if maybe we are looking for all things to be in the Physical realm while to some extent ignoring the reality of the spiritual...

What does the Lamb that stands on Mt. zion mean?

the Lamb standing on Mt Zion of course! :-P i'm not sure Zion is a term used for the Covenant we're under, perhaps you could clarify that for me?i know of Zion being used interchangebly with Jerusalem on earth and the heavenly one also which will come down from heaven...is that literal or figgurative to you? just curious.

God always makes sense!

where is that in the word?aren't God's ways above our own? who has known the ways of God or been His counselor? whoa...through you i've learned quite a bit and have been give much to chew on...thanks bro

God always makes sense!

where is that in the word?aren't God's ways above our own? who has known the ways of God or been His counselor?

Truly spoken brother. Let us not fall into the sin of pride by declaring full and complete understanding, as did the Pharisees concerning Messiah. We are so feeble in our understanding.

bro Doug

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Logic
not necessarily. if you're married (i think you are for some reason) does everything your wife does make sense to you? is the converse also true?

what about when one speaks in an unknown tongue and edifies himself?

point taken about Joseph. i wonder though if maybe we are looking for all things to be in the Physical realm while to some extent ignoring the reality of the spiritual...

You are makeing perfect sense spiritualy when sppeking in toungues.

What does the Lamb that stands on Mt. zion mean?

the Lamb standing on Mt Zion of course!

God always makes sense!

where is that in the word?

bro Logic

I am merried.
But she is not God.

exactly, if you can't make sense of what she says/does sometimes and she is human, how then can you totally understand the ways of a God who is far above us? i'm reminded of Job when he tried to question God...then God asked him where he was when the earth was set on it's foundations...he had to sit down. my point is that God's ways don't always make sense in our minds not that He does nonsenical things, they may appear so to us because we all see through a glass darkly.

You are still makeing sense to God.
He wouldn't just have you blab to Him.

right but you don't understand what you are saying with your mind that is. this is the point i'm trying to get across, it's not always apparent what God is trying to do hence sometimes what He says or does doesn't make sense to us at first, some things we will only grasp on the other side, i venture to say most things will make sense on the other side.

nope, as I said, It is Jesus standing on His covenant.Mt. zion is Jeruselem which represents Israel. Israel is from whom His covenant is.

i suppose so, i haven't really delved into it to figure it out. however i always begin with the assumption that it is literal since JOhn is talking about things he saw. i've found that the revelation is more literal than i thought or than it seems. either way, God will make it plain to us because we are seeking Him out on this.

1Corinth 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

goodd word bro, my point though was that i agree in that God always makes sense, just not always to us all the time. that was the context i asked for scriptural backing to what you said. nowhere in the word does it say we as men understand all the things God does or why.in the fullness of time, all things will be made plain because some things still remain hidden from us. like the word says eye hath not seen nor ear heard the things God has in store for those that love Him...

God bless you bro

IRONMAN wrote:
i've found that the revelation is more literal than i thought or than it seems.

however i always begin with the assumption that it is literal since John is talking about things he saw.

As in Daniel, he [b]saw[/b] these beasts, but they werent literal beasts; the beasts are empires or kings.
[b]Daniel 7:17[/b] [color=990000]These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.[/color]

My point is to know when to take things as symbols and to take as literal. Moreover, pray to reciev the understanding, and it [b]will[/b] make sense.

Dougmore wrote:
Let us not fall into the sin of pride by declaring full and complete understanding