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CATHOLIC OR PROTESTANT?

L
luckyd Oct 22, 2006

catholics say that its not true that just putting your faith in jesus is enough because jesus clearly did not believe that....they show how jesus always said thing such as the scripture where when i was hungry you did not feed me etc and then he says they will be punished forever...they show lots of scripture that does show that jesus talked about doing good or you will be thrown into hell...and if he always talked about this, where does protestant churches get the idea that you only need to believe and be born again...im protestant but ive been going through difficult times and catholics are making sense but they are using scripture...so my question is where is the proof that you only need to believe and be born again when jesus talked about doing good all over the bible and obeying his commands and stuff

M
magnify Oct 22, 2006


Romans 4:3 "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

James 2:21-24 "Was not abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?...You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only."

James rightly understood how faith and works go together. True faith always bears the fruit of good works.
James 2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food and one of you says to them, 'depart in peace be warm and filled', but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. But someone will say, 'you have faith, and I have works', show me your faith without your works and I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS."

James is addressing an audience who, like protestants, are resting on thier laurels of 'simple belief'. He references those who, like Catholics, claim they are saved because of works. James explained previously in Chapter 1 about being a "doer of the word and not a hearer only, decieving yourself". and furthermore brings in the O.T. examples of Abraham and rahab the harlot to prove that thier faith had works. Faith in ACTION is real faith. Abraham beleived God's promise and thus was willing to sacrifice Isaac, for that FAITH he was accounted righteouss; but if the faith stopped short of the action it was not real faith just mental acquiesence.
James 2:19 "you beleive there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble. But do you want to know, oh foolish man, that faith without works is dead."

Mere belief that Jesus did what he said he did or that it is even available for you is not saving faith.
True beleif is a trust. Trusting Jesus as your Savior is enough. Absolutely. The action of that trust is the surrender of your will...your life... walking now in the "good works which he has prepared beforehand that you should walk in them." - eph.2:10

Romans 3:20 "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." 3:27"where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart form the deeds of the law."
It is not works = righteousness. The old covenant is to prove to man that we cannot be righteouss, that in us dwelleth NO good thing!

The law establishes the heart to understand that we are in need of a Savior, that we need to be justified by faith.

It is faith = righteousness, and that is a faith that works.

The filling of the Holy Spirit will grant you to walk in good works. Man can strive without even being saved for good works, but those works were not a byproduct of faith in Jesus. Where is boasting? Excluded, becuase the good works that follow faith are through HIS grace and enabling, NOT my striving.
Christ's blood covers my sin. Not works.
No flesh shall glory in His presence, but will glory in the Lord. Those works are fruit.
In Galatians you see faith vs. works. and Paul concludes it by listing the fruits of the Spirit! Natural works produced by faith. He fills us to good works as we are emptied of self, and self effort.

a word of caution regarding legalism in works is given in Colossians 2:20-23"therefore if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourself to regulations; 'do not touch, do not taste, do not handle', which all concern things which perish with using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom of self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgance of the flesh.'

Jesus gave the commandment to LOVE, God and man, thus fullfilling the old covenant law of works. This commandment given in the new covenant is only accomplished as we recieve the new heart He promised. He forgives us by faith, he justifies us by faith, and he empowers us to live out that faith - all glory to God.
Faith should result in good works. But those good works are fruit of the Spirit of God now alive and living in the beleivers heart.
Works done from anyother motivation are for nothing. Striving, living under the law.

this is all kind of jumbled, but i pray the scriptures clarify God's heart to us.

D
Dougmore Oct 22, 2006

Hi luckyd,

CATHOLIC OR PROTESTANT?

You forgot the one caught in the middle...

Anabaptists.

Protestants claim that Anabaptists are works based salvation. That is not true and is due to an apparent lack of understanding.

Anabaptists believe that Christians must submit to New Covenant law as to be obedient. Makes since considering what the King said,

"[color=CC0000]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love...[/color]"

[color=CC0000]"Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you."[/color] (John 15:10,14)

It is of the greatest necessity that believers submit to Gods Laws.

Christ, speaking of/to what I believe is this modern "church" said, [color=CC0000]"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."[/color] John 15:2

That is a basic Anabaptist stance. Therefore I am labeled a "Legalist" for obeying my God. Ha!!!

As for the Catholics and the Anabaptists, We reject all their additions that are clearly extra-biblical and are commandments of men. Do a little research and see how the Catholics responded!

As for advice, I say pray for the protestant church, that they would return to their first love. My personal testimony is that I was forced out of the liberal (those that deny Godly obedience to His laws) churches and am now in a God centered fellowship. To God be all the Glory!

The only thing I can tell you is check out some of Denny kenastons or Emanuel Esh's sermons.

In Christ, bro Doug

L
letsgetbusy Oct 23, 2006

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

We are saved only by the grace of God.

---

Hebrews 4:2

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

We must have faith in order for God's grace to save us.

---

James 2:26

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Once someone is saved by grace, their life will show evidence of this salavation; works.

---

If you ever get confused on what is necessary for salvation, just go back to Ephesians; since Paul is talking about salvation. When you read the words of Christ, read what is before and after to find what subject He is talking about.

Catholics and Protestants can be wrong, so can any other organization (non-denominational, home group, etc). Being part of any organization doesn't put you in God's will. Just read His Word and believe that. He will tell you who to hang around with.

J
JaySaved Oct 23, 2006

catholics say that its not true that just putting your faith in jesus is enough because jesus clearly did not believe that....they show how jesus always said thing such as the scripture where when i was hungry you did not feed me etc and then he says they will be punished forever...they show lots of scripture that does show that jesus talked about doing good or you will be thrown into hell...and if he always talked about this, where does protestant churches get the idea that you only need to believe and be born again...im protestant but ive been going through difficult times and catholics are making sense but they are using scripture...so my question is where is the proof that you only need to believe and be born again when jesus talked about doing good all over the bible and obeying his commands and stuff

luckyd,

I believe I know where you are coming from. You see plainly in scripture that Jesus speaks of doing good to others and for others. You said:

they show lots of scripture that does show that jesus talked about doing good or you will be thrown into hell...and if he always talked about this, where does protestant churches get the idea that you only need to believe and be born again...

The Protestant interpretation of Faith and Works is clearly articulated in Ephesians 2:8-10. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

We see here that salvation is by God's Grace through our Faith. We see that our salvation is not by works and the reason this is so is so that no one will be able to boast about earning their salvation. We also see that those who are saved by Grace are created to do good works. The works that are done DO NOT save, but are evidence of the salvation.

The problem is when someone tries to say that the WORKS save. This is clearly refuted in scripture.

Now, to get back to the deeper issue you presented. Am I correct in assuming that you are appalled at the number of people who answer the 'invitation', repeat a simple prayer, and are pronounced SAVED? And you are confused at the miniscule retention rate among them?

D
Dougmore Oct 26, 2006

We are saved only by the grace of God.

Lest we forget,

"And being made perfect He became the Author of eternal salvatin, [color=0000FF]unto all them that obey Him[/color]" Hebrews 5:9

H
Here4Him Oct 26, 2006

Ephesians chapter 2 is a key chapter.

We are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God (verse 8).

But the faith that God gives us if it is genuine always works. We are not saved by working, but saved by 'faith' to do works for God (verse 10).

Christianity doesn't start with a big DO but a big DONE!

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