1 John 3:6
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."
This seems pretty clear.
How can an Arminian after reading this verse walk away not believing that you cannot lose TRUE salvation?
I'd like to see the response to THIS verse.
An Arminian would put emphasis on the idea of "abiding." If you are continually abiding in Christ, then you will not continually sin. But if you are continually sinning, then you show yourself to not be continually abiding in Christ.
I'm not sure what an Arminian is, or what they believe, but I will look at scripture.
Hebrews 10v38-39 says, 'Now the just shall live by faith, but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Paul says in 2 Timothy 4v10 that 'Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world ...
Demas must have been saved at some point in order to have been a travelling companion of the apostle Paul. He would not have used any old person to proclaim the gospel with.
Salvation can be lost, and found again.
God bless.
The same greek word "abide" found in this verse is also translated in english in these different words:
AV - abide 61, remain 16, dwell 15, continue 11, tarry 9, endure 3,
misc 5; 120
obviously the main meaning meant in this passage is to: [b]to remain, abide
to abide is to dwell, rest, continue. We are called to abide [b]in Him
Christ called His Church to "abide" in these things and thereby being different and called out from the world.
"Whoever" has quite a broad range in it.
I don't see any assurance of not losing salvation but rather a clear admonition from God of those that "Know God" and are "in" Him. So I would say simply if you are found "abiding in Him" then you are saved.
Do YOU sin?
What is YOUR response to this verse? That is probably what God is more concerned about with you, at the moment.
Let Him deal with those pesky arminians ( ;-) ) himself.
JFEdgar wrote:Let Him deal with those pesky arminians ( ;-) ) himself.
I guess we were just predestined to be this way...
Not being an Arminian I don't feel qualified to answer this question. Arminius was far too Calvinist for my tastes. ;-)
I've never heard the verse cited as a proof of eternal security. Obviously we cannot be a Christian if we choose to hold onto sin but that wouldn't prove eternal security.
Here's a link to some very insightful comments on 1 John written by a preacher named R.L. Lavender ( [url=http://www.crisispub.com/atonement/john.htm#exp1jn18]1 John
Here's what several of the early church fathers said about "a sinning Christian."
Hermas, A.D. 148 (?), says: "He said to me, ‘You have heard correctly, for that is so. For he who has received remission of sin ought never to sin again, but to live in purity. . . .’" The Shepherd of Hermas, MAND IV. iii.2.
Justin Martyr, A.D. 155 (?), Dialogue with Trypho, says: "To acknowledge this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and henceforth to live without sin." Charles Ewing Brown, The Apostolic Church, Anderson, Indiana: The Warner Press, 1947, p. 71
Irenaeus, About A.D. 185, says: " . . . and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man, and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III. CHAP. XVIII.6.
Many people misunderstand the book of 1 John. I'm not claiming to understand any of it, I could misunderstand and have misunderstood much.
However when someone asks me whether I sin or not, its usually because the people asking me want a confirmation for themselves to sin.
If I say, "Yes," they will have no problem and nothing changes with them. If I say "No," they think I'm a heretic or I'm crazy.
The correct answer to the question that they ask me is "No."
Do I sin?
No
Will I sin as a Chrsitian?
No
What about 1 John 1:8, 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us'?
I didn't say I have no sin, I said I don't sin and I will not sin.
Scripture says plainly, 'We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him' - 1 John 5:18
Now it does not insist upon habitual sin, if it did, John would have wrote that and you think yourself to be a better writer than God. Reading that verse, as it is, does not contradict the rest of what John wrote.
John wrote some pretty extreme things in this letter. Again, don't pull out your greek or commentary's but read this next thing he says as it is. John says, '...Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him' - 1 John 3:6 So what does that mean? Its like John is saying this: Little children, have you seen the same Christ I've seen? Can you see the Christ? If you see Him you cannot gaze upon Him and at the same time your hands perform sin.
Now I have sinned after becoming a Christian, does this mean I'm no longer a Christian? No.
1 John 2:1 says '...these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.'
I'm not speaking of sinless perfection but I won't say becoming sinless is impossible in this life. When talking of these things I say what Leonard Ravenhill said, 'Its not impossible to sin, its possible not to sin.'
However, dotting all the i's and crossing all the T's as Paul Washer said, that isn't what being a Christian means. Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. That is the summary of what I've written here.
I'll say one last thing and then I got to go but you can abstain from sin and still go to hell. Unless Christ is your Treasure, unless God is all that you want, all that you have, unless you walk in that reality, your abstaining from sins means nothing. You abstain from sin so that you can seperate yourself to God and the reason why you want to seperate yourself to God in the first place is because you love God and before you love God, He has loved you. Love is the very root of all that a Christian should be and everything, from abstaining from sins, to eating, to talking, to all things should flow from love, from God to His glory.
And again, christianity isn't a sinning and repenting buisness. Eternal life is to know Him! When you know the real Christ, you cannot sin as John said! Its impossible! See the Christ and then go on a sin, no my friend, you have seen a counterfiet Christ. Fix your eyes upon the Jesus Christ of the Bible and everything else takes care of itself.
Paul Mcgrade
{quote} PreachParsley
I guess we were just predestined to be this way...
{quote} Philogos
Not being an Arminian I don't feel qualified to answer this question. Arminius was far too Calvinist for my tastes.
.............................
I couldn’t help but laugh over those comments.
The only answer that I can offer to those who can't work out whether we are saved because God had already chosen us, or have a salvation that is conditional upon our choice to repent, and put our trust in Christ, is...Yes!!;-)
A true saint cannot loose salvation because "He who has begun a good work will finish it" (1 Phillipians 1:6).
One may serve Christ for 60 years, fall away and go to hell because he was never saved in the first place. You can run on the gas of your wicked heart for quite a long time. Add logs to the blaze of your pride or the blaze of your ego or the blaze of your hypocrisy.
Though a true believer will never fall away, many false brethren will and it will appear to be that a true believer can fall away but that is not the case. God has never started a work in the ones who fall away. Evidence of that is their falling away.
Some of you think God is so incapable of trespassing on your "free-will territory." If God wanted to save you He would save you. He'll be the only One who saves if you are to be saved. Scripture says,
"I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
God is not a unjust tyrant. He does this so that you'll be poor in spirit and not think yourself to have one thing but Him. This is why you must plead for Him to save you, this is why the gate is narrow, this is why there are few who find life because you must go low as to be poor in spirit. To be humble and lowly and to cry out to God to save you because you have no other means to be saved from His wrath.
Paul Mcgrade
Can we loose our first birthing, mom and dad? Yes, we all die.
Can we loose our second birthing? Spiritual birth by God with Christ in you? No, Christ will never die again.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Phl 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.
Phl 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Since in the Spirit our new life in Christ Jesus is not of ourselves, but of God, How could we possibly loose so great a salvation, not possible with God.
In the flesh, I can loose my salvation because it was not mine in the first place.
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
Can we loose our first birthing, mom and dad? Yes, we all die.Can we loose our second birthing? Spiritual birth by God with Christ in you? No, Christ will never die again.
Phillip,
How do you account for the fact that majority of the references to the Lamb's Book of Life, bare warnings that involve having your names blotted out?
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Why will He confess our name before the Father? Because we confess His name. To all those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, revealed to each one like Peter, Thou are the Son of the Living God, our revelation and Rock of our foundation of the Bride of Christ, the Church His Body.
The Lamb died for all the world and the sin thereof, so that puts all in the Lambs book of Life, but if we don't believe then the names are blotted out of the Book of Life. This is the Lambs foundation of His Church. Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This is the Rock of His foundation for His Church the Body of Christ, straight from Peter, whom the Father has revealed to Peter not flesh and blood. Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
The Book of Life is for all those that will come, but all would not and their names are blotted out of the Book.
You cannot loose your salvation by being blotted out of the Book, It is God who has sealed the Book not man. We cannot get in the Book unless God puts us their and those are His that He gives to the Lamb as His Bride. Jesus Christ will bring His Bride to His Father's House. He only lost one, that was Judas to fulfill scripture. He will not loose any more that the Father gives Him.
"Can we loose our second birthing? Spiritual birth by God with Christ in you? No, Christ will never die again."
He will never leave us and we that are born again are sealed and the sealer will never break the seal in Christ.
In Christ:
Christinyou wrote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
.....
You cannot loose your salvation by being blotted out of the Book, It is God who has sealed the Book not man. We cannot get in the Book unless God puts us their and those are His that He gives to the Lamb as His Bride. Jesus Christ will bring His Bride to His Father's House. He only lost one, that was Judas to fulfill scripture. He will not loose any more that the Father gives Him.
While I hear what you are saying, considering that it is Christ that is threatening to blot out the names of those who do not overcome (which could probably be read, 'endure until the end'), then doesn't it stand to reason that one can 'lose' his salvaltion, as a result of not overcoming, by Christ Himself blotting out our name?
Perhaps even this could be tied to the idea of being "more than an conquerer" (conquerer/overcomer: same root Greek word 'nikao') in Romans, noting that it is "in all these things" that we are "more than conquerers". Note that the "all these things" are various forms of suffering, so then perhaps this "overcoming" is a reference to "taking up ones cross", which is the condition of being Christ's disciple.
Perhaps it is those who refuse to "taste death" until Christ returns, who will be blotted out. In defence of Phillip's asertion, it could be said that the one who hasn't taken up his cross, was never Christ's disciple, in reality, and therefore had no salvation to lose, but is it possible to put down the cross, after picking it up? Perhaps this could be an alusion to putting one's hand to the plow and looking back?
Either way, I for one don't want to risk being blotted out, and don't believe that Christ would dish out such a warning (which is addressed to the church, not the world) without there being cause for the church to heed it?
But that's just me.
Hmmm....
1 John 3:6
"Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."
Why I started this post was for an answer to this verse which clearly states that if you're living in sin you are lost and have never been saved. Logically concluding to the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints.
Are there any refutations to THIS very verse?
Is there an answer to this verse or are all Christians to be subject to this verse and the doctrine which arises from it?
"A true saint cannot loose salvation"
Hebrews 6:4-6 says:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Romans 11:20-22 (King James Version) says:
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
A christian (who stands by faith) can be cut off.
May I suggest Keith Daniel's sermon on [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=7169]The First Epistle of John - part 1[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=7170]Part 2
One thing that I would consider, and this is similar logic to what Jesus presented to Nichodemus:
Do you sin? If that is the case then does that mean that you aren't saved? If that is th case then doesn't that mean that you are in darkness? If that is so, then doesn't that mean that you have not seen the Kingdom of God? If that is so, then doesn't that mean that you are not qualified to comment on this verse, unquickened by the Holy Spirit? If that is the case, then doesn't that mean that you can disregard the consequences of your interperataion? Ooops...then if that is the case, then the whole thing applie again...go back to the start...Do you sin...?
blinx wrote:"A true saint cannot loose salvation"
Hebrews 6:4-6 says:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Romans 11:20-22 (King James Version) says:
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
A christian (who stands by faith) can be cut off.
Interestingly, the sermons that I have posted speak right to the heart of both sides of the debate. The lessen to be learned is, "Why does it have to be one or the other."
This discussion is locked.
