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Ted Haggard...

I
iansmith Nov 3, 2006

I was skeptical at first, reading the article on [url=http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-11-03T042335Z_01_N02276787_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-EVANGELICAL-SCANDAL.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2]reuters[/url]. But it looks like there may be some [url=http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/4557411.html]truth[/url] to the accusations.

After a day of whirlwind controversy surrounding New Life Church and its leader Ted Haggard, who went on administrative leave earlier Thursday, the acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions.

Thursday morning, Mike Jones went on a Denver radio talk show and said Pastor Haggard paid him for sex over the past 3 years. Jones also claims Haggard did drugs with him. Pastor Parsley says Haggard admitted that some of the allegations are true, but not all of them. The church is not saying what Haggard admitted to.

Right now, the situation is under investigation by an independent panel of leaders from four outside churches. The leaders are from Colorado Springs, Larkspur, Westminster and Louisiana. The panel's role is to decide if Haggard will be exonerated, released from his duties or restored to his pastorship.

It's such a shame if there is any truth to these accusations... but what's more shameful is how many Christians, weak in their faith, who will be effected by this man's sin. How many skeptics will add this to their pile of reasons not to trust in a loving God.

I [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12598&forum=48]commented the other day[/url] that sexual sin exhists in our churches. Well I don't claim to be prophetic, but this should be a wake up call to us evangelicals to clean out our own closets before we go crusading against others. [no pun intended]

Let's remember those who will be most effected by this, the sheep in that church, those who have trusted their shepherd, and will be very confused right now... I hope that they will find comfort in their savior where man has failed them.

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006


The spirit of fornication is in the Church and has neutered our spiritual strength. It is very much like the ensample of sampson as a type of church. Oh how we need to lament over this situation overall in the church! I just wrote a article on weeping I encourage you and others to read it:

[b]The Church Has No Tears! by Greg Gordon[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13168&forum=16

R
rocklife Nov 3, 2006

yes, those sheep were my first thoughts too. it is going to be hard, that is such a betrayal of trust.

this also reminds me of Jesus warning us so much in the New Testament about the church leaders. we need to be careful, He says many of them are hypocrits (like actors). We need to be in the bible and following Jesus for ourselves, not relying on the leaders so much, I believe the leaders are overrated. Jesus is the christian's true leader, and He warns about so many things.

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

I dont really know much about Ted Haggard. I saw him interviewed once... seems like a sincere guy. But like King David, it appears that he has allowed himself to fall into sin.

Let it serve notice on all of us... not one of us is above fray when it comes to the struggle between the flesh and the spirit. We have to daily seek God, and seek purity, and seek righteousness. To go even one day without doing this can open the door for sin to enter in.

We should all pray for Mr. Haggard that he will first of all be restored in his relationship with God. And then also with his wife. We need to pray for that church that they would not abandon him, but rather they would support him and help his family heal.

My personal opinion (since this will inevitably will come up on here) is that he has disqualified himself from pastoring. I believe that's scriptural, and not open for debate.

In our local fellowships, let us all understand that scripture demands purity and righteousness among the leaders of the church. Not perfection, for none of us are perfect... but personal holiness is a must. Scripture demands it.

Consider the following passages:

[b]1Ti 3:2-13[/b] [i]A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.[/i]

and....

[b]Tit 1:7-9[/b] [i]For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.[/i]

In these days of divorced and remarried church leaders, elders and pastors who have children who are out of control, and women "pastors"... it is an eye opener to read what scripture requires of the church leader. As an elder of a house church network I read those passages with fear and trembling. Do I measure up? The other men around me in similar positions measure up? Can any of us measure up?

By God's grace in our lives... the good news is that we can!

We need to realize that God demands [b]much[/b] from the leaders of His church... and is not a matter to be taken lightly. I actually heard a local preacher on the radio the other day state that the verse that says "The husband of one wife" was not referring to divorce and remarriage! Excuse me...?

Let God be God... and every man a liar.

So pray for Haggard. Pray for that church. Pray for yourself, because but for the grace of God go us. Pray that churches would return to strict qualifications of scripture, instead of watering down everything and going with what feels right. What feels right usually isnt right! The heart is desperately wicked.

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

By the way... we all need to wait and see how all this develops before we jump to too many conclusions. My response was based on what I saw their church's leaders say themselves on the news this morning... that he has admitted that "some" of the accusations are true. But we dont know what they are.

I'm also leary of breaking news like this 5 days before the election. There is much more going on behind the scenes, I promise you that much. Everything about this is very sinister. Everything from whatever it is Haggard did, to the timing of the news, to who is involved in breaking this.

We all just need to pray about this whole situation.

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

He was rated one of the top 25 leading evangelicals in america. If this is true it is on the level of Jimmy Swaggart and will be a massive mare on the body of Christ in america and worldwide. What a shame and mockery, if this was not true at all he could stand up and firmly deny such a outrageous accustion!

But how sad his reaction of stepping down from the Church for a time and actually leaving the board of a large evangelical non-profit. The signs are not good at all.

But Oh how a revival of religion will expose these counterfiets and hirelings. May the spot light of revival come into america. As J. Edwin Orr stated that revival is like [b]Judgement Day![/b] may it be so! There is nothing that is hidden that will not be exposed.

If you have any sins that are hidden saint expose them willingly today before God and forsake them. The time is drawing nigh.

B
boomatt Nov 3, 2006

It seems that he saying it is a liberal hit job, which is what I suspect, just a few days till election with a marriage amendment on the ballot, with him being one of the top supporters....oh yeah, I can believe this is a hit job. But if not, I pray that he repents and takes the necessary steps toward reconciliation with the father.

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

I agree with everything sermonindex is saying. Be sure your sins will find you out.

He has admitted that some of the accusations are true. I know if it was me... and I was totally innocent... I'd be fighting back with everything I had. So this does seem to be a bad sign.

I still say we need to pray for him and his family, as well as those in his church. I dont think we need to condemn him, but rather lift him up to the Father.

In the meantime, we all need to examine ourselves. Locally here this week they arrested a camp counselor from a Christian camp for luring a 14 yr old girl to a local mall via the internet. He is 53, the 14 yr old girl was a detective in his 30's with the Sherrif's Department.

There is not just sin in the camp, folks... there is gross sin in the camp. We can not allow this continue without expecting God to clean house sooner or later.

Krispy

B
boomatt Nov 3, 2006

The accuser failed a lie detector test, check this link out:

[url=http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_5115625%2C00.html]Haggard's Accuser Fails Polygraph[/url]

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

Maybe so... but Haggard is already admitted to some of the accusations. It wouldnt surprise me if the accuser embellished a lot. I dont consider a gay prostitute meth dealer to be a real reliable source.

We shall see.

Krispy

B
BenBrockway Nov 3, 2006

Hello, my dear and faithful Christians. I just wanted to share something from my heart concerning my former pastor (I now go to his son's church - still under the umbrella of New Life, though). While there is a depth of sadness towards the allegations as a whole, there is one thing I know and that he, just like the rest of us are not perfect. While these allegations aren't things we want in our churches, satan will always try and find a way to tempt us all. During this time it has cause me to reflect upon my own life as a former pastor's kid myself. I know that I have had my own share of frailties.

May this be a time of reflection upon our own lives. Let's pray for him and his family, and may the outcome ultimately lead to God's glory.

B
boomatt Nov 3, 2006

Amen Ben

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

For years now, the NAE, Haggard, and numerous other "evangelicals" have wedded themselves to the republican party that found out YEARS ago, that the way to "victory" was thru character assassination.

I didnt hear anybody say a word, when that awful rascist attack ad was leveled at Congressman Harold Ford Jr of Tennesse not two weeks ago, where Ken Mehlman and a feller named Fisher cooked up an attack ad, that had a white girl cooing about how she met "Harold" (who is black) at the playboy party, and then finishes off the ad by again cooing, "call me Harold".

and all this to a man, who is a professed follower of Jesus, Harold Ford stood up at the end of the last debate, and publicly professed his faith, and asked the audience not only for their votes, but for their prayers.

Now since Ford is black and Democrat, and running neck in neck with Bob Corker the republican attack machine got scared, and ran this filth, and you speak of "liberal hit jobs"?

I am proud to a Democrat, the party that gave the nation a President like FDR, who took a rural south, that was reeling under the Depression, and poured billions of dollars into a region that was HARDEST hit by this economic calamity, programs that worked, that put good men and women to work, rural electrification, the TVA, i could go on and on.

and now you in Virginia, will you be voting for a Senator, that refers to another human being as a "macaca"?.....lets not even talk about Allen.

Lets talk about pastors, who take the provisions of God and wed them to a political party, to rub up against power, and to play the game....and now, they are ALL getting exposed.

God is so good, and if you don't think that this gay male escort has a money/paper/phone record and email trail, think again. That "pastor" stood in front of a camera with a weird phony smile and denied everything, and the next day his assisitant senior pastor, with the same goofy grin, and said that the "pastor" had admitted to "some indiscretions" with this man.......and everybodies saying pray for Haggard?

what about the 14,000 members of that church, some of whom might be stumbled FOR LIFE, some of whom labour under their own sin, and look to a church leader as a "model", said church leader being one of the most vociferous critics of "gay marriage", and HE'S the one having sexual relations with another man?

poltically motivated?

you bet it is, God is so good, that He is exposing the rank hypocrisy that has been festering in the ranks of the "white evangelical church" for years now, screaming about "gay marriage", let the homosexual's have their "civil unions", let God deal with each to his own, and move on, and lets start talking about the children, CHILDREN in this nation that don't have medical insurance, or the children in this nation who go to school without breakfast, lets talk about a permament working class poor we are creating all the while giving BILLIONS of dollars to the already megarich, while we run up deficits that cripple our children's future......is that liberal to you?

I plead guilty.

How many paychecks can you miss without going hungry? You got a nice nest egg built up? What if your pension fund was looted, or your medical insurance taken away?....would you still be talking about "liberal hit job's"?

the republican play book has always been about character assassination, what happened to Haggard was that his hypocrisy was exposed to the light for all to see, maybe these pastors better start to realize that if you play with fire, and that fire being politics, you play with fire, you get burned......and Haggard better start trembling coz Jesus Himself talked about the millstone around the neck for those that cause these lil ones to stumble.

Matt, please...please please, don't take my post to you as a personal assualt, I beg you in Jesus' Name, I'm just grieved to my core about the WHOLE PICTURE, it has nothing to do with you personally. i don't take glee at Ted Haggard's travails, God forbid, I am just sick of this whole unholy marriage between the republican party, and what has become to be called "evangelicals"..would to God that believers start to realize, give to caesar what is caesar's and to God what is God's.....that's why we must seperate our Church, the Body of Christ, from politics.

If one is Christian, a follower of Jesus, and wants to go into politics, thats fine, but expect to be burned, because you will be consorting and playing with power, worldly power, and we know who the god of this world is, and it aint Yahweh, it aint Jesus, its the tempter.

Thanks for letting me vent Matt, please know that you have my love in Christ, bartle

B
BenBrockway Nov 3, 2006


bartle wrote:
For years now, the NAE, Haggard, and numerous other "evangelicals" have wedded themselves to the republican party that found out YEARS ago, that the way to "victory" was thru character assassination.

I didnt hear anybody say a word, when that awful rascist attack ad was leveled at Congressman Harold Ford Jr of Tennesse not two weeks ago, where Ken Mehlman and a feller named Fisher cooked up an attack ad, that had a white girl cooing about how she met "Harold" (who is black) at the playboy party, and then finishes off the ad by again cooing, "call me Harold".

and all this to a man, who is a professed follower of Jesus, Harold Ford stood up at the end of the last debate, and publicly professed his faith, and asked the audience not only for their votes, but for their prayers.

Now since Ford is black and Democrat, and running neck in neck with Bob Corker the republican attack machine got scared, and ran this filth, and you speak of "liberal hit jobs"?

I am proud to a Democrat, the party that gave the nation a President like FDR, who took a rural south, that was reeling under the Depression, and poured billions of dollars into a region that was HARDEST hit by this economic calamity, programs that worked, that put good men and women to work, rural electrification, the TVA, i could go on and on.

and now you in Virginia, will you be voting for a Senator, that refers to another human being as a "macaca"?.....lets not even talk about Allen.

Lets talk about pastors, who take the provisions of God and wed them to a political party, to rub up against power, and to play the game....and now, they are ALL getting exposed.

God is so good, and if you don't think that this gay male escort has a money/paper/phone record and email trail, think again. That "pastor" stood in front of a camera with a weird phony smile and denied everything, and the next day his assisitant senior pastor, with the same goofy grin, and said that the "pastor" had admitted to "some indiscretions" with this man.......and everybodies saying pray for Haggard?

what about the 14,000 members of that church, some of whom might be stumbled FOR LIFE, some of whom labour under their own sin, and look to a church leader as a "model", said church leader being one of the most vociferous critics of "gay marriage", and HE'S the one having sexual relations with another man?

poltically motivated?

you bet it is, God is so good, that He is exposing the rank hypocrisy that has been festering in the ranks of the "white evangelical church" for years now, screaming about "gay marriage", let the homosexual's have their "civil unions", let God deal with each to his own, and move on, and lets start talking about the children, CHILDREN in this nation that don't have medical insurance, or the children in this nation who go to school without breakfast, lets talk about a permament working class poor we are creating all the while giving BILLIONS of dollars to the already megarich, while we run up deficits that cripple our children's future......is that liberal to you?

I plead guilty.

How many paychecks can you miss without going hungry? You got a nice nest egg built up? What if your pension fund was looted, or your medical insurance taken away?....would you still be talking about "liberal hit job's"?

the republican play book has always been about character assassination, what happened to Haggard was that his hypocrisy was exposed to the light for all to see, maybe these pastors better start to realize that if you play with fire, and that fire being politics, you play with fire, you get burned......and Haggard better start trembling coz Jesus Himself talked about the millstone around the neck for those that cause these lil ones to stumble.

Matt, please...please please, don't take my post to you as a personal assualt, I beg you in Jesus' Name, I'm just grieved to my core about the WHOLE PICTURE, it has nothing to do with you personally. i don't take glee at Ted Haggard's travails, God forbid, I am just sick of this whole unholy marriage between the republican party, and what has become to be called "evangelicals"..would to God that believers start to realize, give to caesar what is caesar's and to God what is God's.....that's why we must seperate our Church, the Body of Christ, from politics.

If one is Christian, a follower of Jesus, and wants to go into politics, thats fine, but expect to be burned, because you will be consorting and playing with power, worldly power, and we know who the god of this world is, and it aint Yahweh, it aint Jesus, its the tempter.

Thanks for letting me vent Matt, please know that you have my love in Christ, bartle


I guess the only thing I have to say to this is that, by your statement it requires me and the other 13999 members to place Pastor Ted on a pedestal. If Christians are going to stumble over this, then they need to repent for worshiping Pastor Ted, rather then God. Remember that WE ARE ALL MEMEBERS OF ONE BODY AND THAT CHRIST IS THE HEAD. If people are going to stumble over this, they are saved for the wrong reason.

sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

I dont consider a gay prostitute meth dealer to be a real reliable source.

its getting so that I dont consider a "white evangelical leader" that is lockstep with the republican party, a real reliable source either.

wait till the paper/email/phone record/ and bank statements come out from this sordid "relationship".

Steve, you and me , have a lot in common. You know that, we PM'ed privately. We both like to hunt, we enjoy marksmanship, gunplay, bows and arrows, we both like sports, you football, me baseball. We pride ourselves on our lil ones. We both volunteered for the military, you marine, me Navy and we both our love our fellow servicemen and women, and feel part of that great tradition, and we're both "lil guys"...I don't mean that in height...we aint Donald Trumps,thats what I'm saying, praise God....and we both love Jesus, coz He turned us around.

Steve, I just been reading a book written by a couple of fellows named Steve Jarding and Dave "Mudcat" Saunders (who also happens to be one of the best trophy buck hunters in the nation...lol) and its called "Foxes in the Henhouse---How the Republicans stole the South and the Heartland". Please, read this book, this isnt some eastern liberal elites writting it. If you read this book, you are gonna get mad.

Now if you don't want to spend the money, I will reach into my own limited purse and buy it for you, if you give me your word, that you'll at least give it a read. (you can PM me)

Now if you don't want to read it, or are too busy, I understand, but its an eyeopener.

we been conned, and its all starting to come to light.

much love in Christ, squid

M
MSeaman Nov 3, 2006

Evangelical Leader Admits to Buying Meth, Receiving Massage From Gay Escort

Friday , November 03, 2006
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — Embattled national evangelical leader the Rev. Ted Haggard admitted Friday that he bought methamphetamines and received a massage from a gay prostitute, but denies he ever used the drug or had sex with the man.

"I bought it for myself but never used it," Haggard told reporters gathered outside his home. "I was tempted but I never used it."

Haggard, 50, a married father of five, who resigned his post as head of the thirty million member National Association of Evangelicals, said he never had sex with Mike Jones, a 49-year-old gay escort who claims to have had a drug-laced three year tryst with Haggard.

Haggard, who was leaving his home with his wife and three of his five children, said he bought the methamphetamine because he was curious. He claimed he threw it away.

Haggard earlier claimed charges against him were untrue, and were political retribution for his campaign in support of a state constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

Haggard, pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church, announced his resignation on Thursday.

"I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity," Haggard said in a statement. "I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."

Haggard also gave up his post at the church.

A pastor at Haggard's church, Ross Parsley, sent an e-mail to congregants saying Haggard "confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true."

"It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true. He has willingly and humbly submitted to the authority of the board of overseers, and will remain on administrative leave during the course of the investigation," the e-mail stated. A copy was obtained by KMGH-TV in Denver.

Late Wednesday, Haggard told KUSA-TV: "I've never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."

Among the allegations made by Jones was that Haggard paid him for sex and snorted methamphetamine with him before their sexual encounters to heighten the experience.

Jones said he decided to go public with his story because of Haggard's opposition to the proposed state ban on gay marriage.

"I just want people to step back and take a look and say, 'Look, we're all sinners, we all have faults, but if two people want to get married, just let them, and let them have a happy life,'" said Jones, who added that he is gay and is not working for any political group.

"It made me angry that here's someone preaching about gay marriage and going behind the scenes having gay sex," he said.

Colorado voters will decide on the gay-marriage ban amendment when they vote next Tuesday.

Jones claimed Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month over three years. He said he advertised himself as an escort on the Internet and was contacted by a man who called himself Art.

Jones said he later saw the man on television identified as Haggard and that the two last had sex in August.

He said he has voice mail messages from Haggard, as well as an envelope he said Haggard used to mail him cash. He declined to make the voice mails available to the AP, but KUSA-TV reported what it said were excerpts late Thursday that referred to methamphetamine.

"Hi Mike, this is Art," one call began, according to the station. "Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply."

A second message, left a few hours later, began: "Hi Mike, this is Art, I am here in Denver and sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get the stuff, then that would be great. And I'll get it sometime next week or the week after or whenever."

Carolyn Haggard, spokeswoman for the New Life Church and the pastor's niece, said a four-member church panel will investigate the allegations. The board has the authority to discipline Haggard, including removing him from ministry work.

The allegations stunned church members.

"It's political, right before the elections," said Brian Boals, a New Life member for 17 years.

Church member E.J. Cox, 25, called the claims "ridiculous."

"People are always saying stuff about Pastor Ted," she said. "You just sort of blow it off. He's just like anyone else in the public eye."

Haggard, 50, was appointed president of the evangelicals association in March 2003. He has participated in conservative Christian leaders' conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied members of Congress last year on U.S. Supreme Court appointees after Sandra Day O'Connor announced her retirement.

After Massachusetts legalized gay marriage in 2004, Haggard and others began organizing state-by-state opposition. Last year, Haggard and officials from the nearby Christian ministry Focus on the Family announced plans to push Colorado's gay marriage ban for the 2006 ballot.

At the time, Haggard said that he believed marriage is a union between a man and woman rooted in centuries of tradition, and that research shows it's the best family unit for children.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 FOX News Network, LLC. All rights reserved.


sermonindex Nov 3, 2006

Sir, it don't require you to do anything except to realize that this "marriage" between the NAE, the "mostly white evangelical church with the republican party is a sham, it's hypocrisy, and God is now bringing this to light.

Ben, my pastor,my mentor and I would say one of my best friends, his name is pastor Ted, and God forbid, should he ever have been involved in such sin, I would still love him, and be there for him, and listen to him...beacause my love and my friendship with him is unconditional. I would be so sad, if my pastor Ted had to stand up and resign his pastorate....sad aint even the word, I'd be heartbroken, and I can only imagine your grief, and beg forgiveness if my post seemed callous or vituperative. If you are his friend, meaning you know his home phone, slept at his house, had lunch with him, I can't even imagine what must be going thru your heart, its awful, to see a good man, a good pastor fall, thats a tragedy.

But there are probably some who do not have your faith, and steadfastness in the Lord, and they will be more than grieved...they will be stumbled, and you know that.

To be a pastor is a heavy heavy burden, why mix it up by taking a pastorate and marrying it to a political party?

My prayers go out to you, for real, bartle

C
Chariot Nov 3, 2006

If Christians are going to stumble over this, then they need to repent for worshiping Pastor Ted, rather then God.

I don't think it necessarily follows that becauses someone stumbles over this regrettable situation, that they've placed him on a 'pedestal." I'm thinking here of the young neophytes who were under his daily influence, those under his discipleship.

Bartle, have you read [url=http://www.amazon.com/Tempting-Faith-Inside-Political-Seduction/dp/0743287126/sr=1-1/qid=1162585492/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9576603-5878512?ie=UTF8&s=books]Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction[/url]? It was a hot topic in the news for awhile, but it seems to have been cast into oblivion.

Rob

B
boomatt Nov 3, 2006

BARTLE,

and now you in Virginia, will you be voting for a Senator, that refers to another human being as a "macaca"?.....lets not even talk about Allen.

WOW! First off, I am not republican or democrat. I will NOT vote this year, I am exercising my right to not vote. I should have cleared myself when I said liberal hitjob. I wasnt referring to liberals in general, I was more referring to liberals, or left wing extremists ie communists, gay rights activists...that was really who I was talking about...not liberals in general, so I apologize my friend.

B
boomatt Nov 3, 2006

Bartle,


Allen isn't the only person who is running a crummy campaign, Webb, and his goonies have been following Allen trying to catch him in perdicaments, so they can show the world how Allen is a racist, which is pitaful...I would be annoyed too, although I would not call anyone a meccaca, even though he probably didn't even know what that meant.

oh well, I will not talk politics further with you Bartle, even though you love it. ( ;-) )

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