THE RAPTURE: ARE YOU READY?

I CAME ACROSS A SHORT BUT EYE OPENING VIDEO YOUR GONNA LIKE THIS CHECK IT OUT CLICK THE LINK (MUST SEE!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9r_Jo4N-aE

GOD BLESS

Wow. That was crazy! That definatly puts scripture to sight. WOW.

brethren
i saw the video this past weekend. ultimately there are a lot of things which need to occur before Christ returns. The Judgement must first come to the Church, then the world and then when it is done Christ returns. i don't think the rapture will be much to talk about, we as the Church have a lot of filth which needs to the cleansed first before we can even begin to think about going to heaven.

There are a few things wrong with that video:

1. There is no way all those people are saved in such an americanized steeple house. The ratio is totally wrong. If anything, the ones left behind would be saved in proportion to the ones who went.

2. There is no pre-trib rapture. This is false hope and leads to deception, or is at least the result of deception. Many will be tried and purified during the tribulation hour, and then Christ will return for a pure and holy Church that was purified with the fires of tribulation and persecution.

3. Yes, the tribulation can start at any time. The Day of the Lord will be a Day of vengeance and wrath. And then Christ will return in great power and glory to tread the winepress of God's fierce and Almighty wrath on all the ungodly, and He will gather His saints together from the four winds to abide with Him forever.

And as a quick note, the great falling away is already occuring. If you are not aware of this, then you are probably a part of it. And the Church is not filthy or sinful, what's filthy is the modern day babylonian system that calls itself the church but is nothing but a pagan system that's a cheap imposter trying to climb up the sheepfold some other way. The true Church is already pure, already holy, already clean and made white as snow, and is ready for the Bridegroom to return. But she's only a remnant and she will always be only a remnant.

R/A

Amen

Blessings Greg

RevivalArmy wrote:
There are a few things wrong with that video:

1. There is no way all those people are saved in such an americanized steeple house. The ratio is totally wrong. If anything, the ones left behind would be saved in proportion to the ones who went.

I agree with this but...

2. There is no pre-trib rapture. This is false hope and leads to deception, or is at least the result of deception.

Where is the biblical basis for this view point?
I have heard a lot of speakers who can show clearly that there is a pre trib rapture (not just one or two verses but many stories in the bible which show the church being with Him while the earth is brought under judgement), but I have yet to hear clear teaching that says that the church must go through the tribulation.

I'm not being argumentative, I myself think it's a bit of a cop out to think we go before the suffering, but I would like to see someone biblically prove it.

Also where does this lead to deception, if anything I am more adamant that the Gospel must be preached cos we could be gone at any moment and the door is shut.

To follow your thinking, I could just hang around until the anti-christ turns up then get on my knees and repent cos we only have 7 years to go

Please don't call me stupid etc, I'm have this view cos it's all I have been taught, I'm open to anyone who can expound the scriptures with wisdom.

Ste

Where does the body of Christ become only a remnant? Jesus said, the revelation of God given to man will be the foundation Rock He will build His Church, the Body of Christ, that is Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.

Do you believe that the Church of Christ is governed by the ones that won't believe? I don't believe so. God knows the fullness of the Gentiles and when it is finished. God also knows the number of Jewish believers that are given Grace to believe on the Messiah. This is the only remnant of believers of the Church I know of. Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. In the Church they are neither Jew or Gentile but The Body of Christ the Church, The Bride of Christ, which will be the Father's when Jesus takes His Bride to His Fathers House as with all weddings before the House of Israel of God and so shall we always be with the Lord.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ: Phillip

There is no pre-trib rapture. In Mt 24 Jesus clearly details basically the end just before His return to the kindgom. Notice He doesn't return until after the "tribulation of those days." What else do you really need? Just because a bunch of men with degrees say it's so, doesn't mean squat. I've witnessed long enought to understand that you can twist scriptures this way and that enough to support just about any wild fantasy you can dream up.

Jesus said it, that settles it, now believe.

The scriptures do point to a pre tribulation Rapture read below and study hard!! Bretheren...

There is an old story about three blind men who had never learned what an elephant was. Each was given a different part of the elephant to feel. One the trunk, another an ear, and the last its tail. Each then described the animal as something totally foreign as to what was the true appearance of God’s creature. The problem was none of the blind men had all the data required for a person to make an informed statement. Each was sincere in their belief, but were still holding to wrong opinions nonetheless. Their description would have been much more accurate if they would have felt the entire creature from head to tail in an orderly fashion.

The sequencing God puts to events can be a fascinating study for students of Bible prophecy. For instance, in Revelation 1:19 Jesus Christ tells the Apostle John to write down "the things which you have seen" (referring to the appearance of Christ recorded in Revelation 1:13-18), "the things which are (in the Greek ha eisin is a plural verb individualizing items which corresponds with John’s record of the messages to the seven churches in Revelation 1:20-3:22). Then lastly, "the things which will take place after this" (that is the things which are to take place after the churches are dealt with). It is intriguing to note that the Greek words for "after this" is meta tauta. These are the exact same words recorded in Revelation 4:1 immediately after the messages to the churches end and immediately before the Apostle John is called up to heaven.

"After this" the view continues on in heaven, where in Revelation 5:9-10 the Church is seen by John redeemed in heaven. Revelation 6 opens with the start of the Tribulation Period. Another wonderful example of the hope found in God’s sequencing can be found in Paul’s two letters to the Thessalonians. In 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, verse 9 speaks of things that had been (the Thessalonians had been idol worshippers). Verse 10 then records what was taking place at that time and what was to take place afterwards (that is the Thessalonians were waiting for the appearance of Jesus Christ first, then deliverance from the wrath which was "to come"). A simple 1,2,3 sequence.

In Chapters 4 & 5 of his first letter to the Thessalonians and again in Chapter 2 of his second letter the Apostle Paul made clear exposition of two distinct and different sequential activities of the Lord. In Chapter 4:13-18 of 1 Thessalonians Paul spoke of the Rapture when the Lord would raise up the dead in Christ and would gather all living believers to Him as He appears to them in the clouds of heaven. He tells Christians to "comfort one another with these words." In Chapter 2:1 of Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians, Paul again addresses this same event when he declares, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him."

Returning to Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in 5:1-11, he chronologically reveals the next of the Lord’s activities when in verse 2 he writes of "the day of the Lord." The day of the Lord in the Scriptures starts at the beginning of the Tribulation period and continues into the period of Christ’s reign upon the earth as can be verified by biblical passages such as can be found in Revelation 5, 6:1, 11:15-17 & Joel 3:14-18.

This day of Christ is likewise chronologically spoken of after the Rapture in verse 2 of Chapter 2 of Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians. Paul then emphasizes to the Thessalonians in verses 2-8 of Chapter 5 in his first letter that this day will come "upon them" (that is the unbelieving world, not believers) suddenly "and they shall not escape," and that this day would not overtake the Christians. In verse 9 Paul reiterates how the believers will have been delivered from this day of wrath when he again recounts the Rapture. Paul once more emphasizes in verse 11 that believers are to "comfort each other" regarding this glorious deliverance from the wrath which is to come (Revelation 6:16-17).

Verse 2 of Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians is the verse which is the crux of this study. Here we find that the Thessalonians are not comforted, but instead were sorely troubled. They have received false teachings that the Tribulation Period had come. Of extra disconcertment, the origin of this false information was being portrayed as having come from Paul and others in leadership positions. Why the Thessalonians were troubled must be understood in order to correctly grasp that which is revealed to us in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

One of the passages in the New Testament debated by adherents of the Post, Mid and Pre-Tribulation Rapture positions is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. The questions and opinions held to by the diverse points of view concerning 2 Thessalonians comes down basically to three subjects: the timing and the meaning of the events recorded by the Apostle Paul in verses 1 & 2 and who is the restrainer of the man of sin in verses 6 & 7.

Quoting verses 1 & 2 we read, "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." It is crucial for the correct understanding of this passage to grasp that Paul was assuring the Thessalonians in verse 2 that they were not entering into the day of the Lord’s judgment. Fraudulent messages and distressing circumstances surrounding the church at Thessalonica had made them fearful that they were entering into the time of God’s wrath. It is conclusive that Paul is speaking of the time of the Rapture in verse 1 as described in John 14:1-3 & 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.

Verse 2 begins the debate. Pre-Tribulation supporters say that while verse 1 speaks of the Rapture (which we believe transpires before the Tribulation Period) verse 2 refers to the day of the Lord which is the time of His judging the earth until the close of the Tribulation and on into Christ’s earthly reign. Opponents say Paul is still speaking about the same event in verse 1 and verse 2

The dynamic question which gives clarity of thought concerning this passage of Scriptures concerns the clear reference to the Rapture in verse 1. This is, why would Paul bother to reassure the Thessalonians that they had not missed the Rapture? If Paul had previously taught them a Post or Mid Tribulation Rapture then they would not have any reason to "be shaken in mind" that they had missed it and had entered the Tribulation Period. They should have remained expectant of their blessed hope, but they were not.

Paul had been the Thessalonians teacher according to verse 5. If Paul wanted to correct an erroneous Pre-Tribulation outlook then the sequence of verses 1 & 2 should have been transposed in his letter to them. The day of the Lord would have been presented first by Paul, then secondly "our gathering together at the Rapture.

If it was something which they did not believe they might have missed, why is the Rapture presented as the primary and foremost concern in verse 1? If verse 2 is still speaking of the Rapture, as some suppose, then Paul would not have succeeded in relieving any of the Thessalonians' distress, but instead would have in fact troubled them even greater by replacing their hope of the Rapture with the horrible fact that they or their children would one day face even greater and more terrifying tribulation then what they were then witnessing at that time. There would be no easing their troubled spirits by saying in effect, "you ain’t seen nothing yet."

Moving on to verse 3, we must point out that the words "that day will not come" are not in the original Greek, but are added in to help understand the passage flow. Quoting verses 3 we read, "Let no one deceive you by any means; [for that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition." This verse was given to relieve the anxiety of the Thessalonians by assuring them that they had not entered into the Tribulation Period of verse 2 and therefore had not missed the promised Rapture spoken of in verse 1. Paul did not intend to convey to them that the worst was yet to come upon them.

Continuing on in verse 3 the reader must always keep in mind that Paul’s clear objective has been to reassure the Thessalonians that: 1) they had not missed the Rapture and 2) they had not entered the Tribulation. Paul expounds on these two main points in verse 3 by sharing two major events which will distinguish the true start of the Tribulation.

First, there is to be a great apostasy (or departure) from the truth of Jesus Christ by a non-committed segment found predominantly within the ranks of Christianity. Revelation 3:1-5, 3:14-16, Jude 4,12-13, 2 Peter 2:15-22 & Matt. 7:21-23 are some of the passages which speak of this faithless company. This false church will unite in global power after Christ removes the True Church and will bring to blossom the Harlot of Revelation 17.

Secondly, is the reference in verse 3 that the Day of the Lord could not come until the man of sin (that is the Anti-Christ) is revealed. Jumping ahead to verses 6 & 7 for a moment, it is vital to recognize and keep in mind for later that these verses speak of a "restrainer" which must be taken out of the way before the Anti-Christ can ever be revealed. The Anti-Christ will be revealed at the very start of the Tribulation Period when Christ opens the first seal of the last day’s judgments according to Revelation 6:1-2. Therefore, by the Word of God, the Church must be removed before the start of the Tribulation in order to harmonize with the sequence established by seeing the Church in heaven in Revelation 5:9-10 prior to the opening of the first seal of the Tribulation in Revelation 6.

Chapter 1:4-6 of 2 Thessalonians makes it abundantly clear that the Thessalonians were suffering terrible persecutions and tribulation. We must ask ourselves again what kind of consolation is Paul supposed to be giving? According to Post and Mid Tribulation interpretations, Paul is telling them not to hope for the Lord’s coming for any deliverance. Instead, he is telling them that the suffering they were enduring was nothing compared to what was coming when the son of perdition would be revealed. The fact remains that the Thessalonian believers were not troubled because they believed the Lord was coming for them and their resurrected loved ones. They were troubled because they thought it had not happened as expected and that instead they had entered into the Tribulation Period.

Lastly, we come to verses 6, 7 & 8 of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2. Verse 6 is a fascinating and revealing cryptic message for our time. The Thessalonians understood what and whom Paul was speaking of as the "restrainer" of the Anti-Christ in verse 7, but we are left to apply ourselves to deductive reasoning. Paul writes, "And you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work: only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

Theories as to the identity of this restraining "what" and "who" include: world government, the Archangel Michael, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Church. The language of the text conclusively supports that the identity of this mysterious entity described both in neutered impersonal and also personal terms, is in fact the Holy Spirit indwelt Church. Only the Spirit-filled Church fits this unique description of both an impersonal principle or power capable of manifesting itself under a personal form as a male individual in its unique identification as "the Body of Christ." (Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17 & 12:27). Ephesians 1:13-14 gives irrefutable proof that even if the Holy Spirit were to ever be removed as the Restrainer, the Church would still have to be removed also. All other choices presented other than the Holy Spirit within the Church fail to fulfill the personal/impersonal description of the Restrainer. Jesus, Michael and the Holy Spirit are not "whats" and world government is not a "He."

Again, Paul’s reassurance that the Church must be removed before the Anti-Christ can make his appearance, as described in Revelation 6:1-2 & Daniel 9:27 is solidified and harmonizes with Paul’s original intention. Clear and sound exposition demands one to recognize that Paul was consistent in his purpose and sequence to alleviate what was troubling the Church when he wrote to them in Chapter 2 of II Thessalonians. He first assured them in verses 1 & 2 that they had not misunderstood the promise of the Rapture and refutes the false idea that they were entering the Tribulation Period. In verse 3 he reassures them that the Tribulation Period will not take place until after the great apostasy within and without the Church comes to fruition and the Anti-Christ is revealed. In verses 6-8, Paul sums up his offer of comfort by again emphasizing that an entity is holding back the Anti-Christ from making his appearance (an entity which they are aware of) and that entity must be taken out of the way first before the great day of the Lord can start.

We believe that we are living at the threshold of the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation Period and that an example of love between those who hold to different views as to the Rapture’s timing, at this point, would demonstrate a sober wisdom in the Lord. We are confident that the sequential teaching we have shared verifies the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the teaching of Scripture and will be proven correct in the very near future.

Are you ready to meet the Lord in the Rapture or if He should call you home this day? Believe in the atoning blood sacrifice of the Living Lord Jesus Christ this moment for the forgiveness of your sins and thou shalt be saved.

:|

That's great logic and all. But, you deny Mt 24? Were is the mysterious pre-trib rapture in this scripture? Why can't people just accept Mt 24?

I wonder how many would call Hurricane Katrina God's wrath. Or how about the Tsunami that hit Sri Lanka,India?
Now if the pre-trib rapture thought is that God will not allow His children to suffer His wrath, then what do we say about the Christians that died in these instances? Why weren't they raptured away from God's wrath?
Some will try to say that it was Satan's wrath, but when did he become omnipotent?
There is no mention of a "secret Coming" of Christ. He Himself said it will be as lightning across the sky. Brother Josef is correct in stating that it breeds deception, and confusion.
Imagine for a second if the pre-trib view is wrong. What happens when millions are "left behind"? The first thing they would do is question the validity of the Bible, their pastor, their faith. Sounds pretty much like what Satan wants to do to every child of God. So you can see that it is a dangerous belief to get dogmatic about if there is scant evidence for it.
One last point. Why did God pour His wrath upon His most beloved Child? Christ was not raptured away from the wrath of God.
I would be interested to hear the answers to these questions.

NLONG you wrote;
"That's great logic and all. But, you deny Mt 24? Were is the mysterious pre-trib rapture in this scripture? Why can't people just accept Mt 24?"

Not to get stuck into (and i won't) another long diatribe about pre, mid or post trib rapture, just answering your question ...

But the reason why pre-tribbers dont take Matt 24 under concideration towards the Church is because it's viewed as Christ answering His disciples questions in the capacity and context of their Jewishness (whom He came for first) rather than in the context of the Church (who would be grafted in later after the Jews rejection of Him as Messiah), and that because both Church and the moniker of Christian did not, nor could not have happened until after His death, resurrection, and the coming of Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost as our replacement Comforter and founder of the Church ... Thereby
pre-tribbers don't see Christ answer to what would be the signs of His second coming in Matt. 24, as pertaining to the Church who did not happen until Acts 2 ...

i personally believe in pre-trib, but have no problem with how other saints believe, because it has no bearing on whether we're saved or not ... i also have come to subscribe to the notion of being a "pan-tribber", as in it will all pan out as our Lord will eventually reveal to any blessed enuf to experience rapture without having to taste death WHENEVER He comes ... So all the more reason to just keep on living every second as He just may come the next ...

i really liked the little clip, very sobering ... But i also have to admit that when i saw the thread title i thought of these alternatives ...

- THE RAPTURE - ARE YOU READY TO BE REFINED TO HAVING SPOT NOR WRINKLE?

Seems to me that's the pre-requisite, and i could be wrong but i think we His Church are a bit to much bloated with worldly excess to fit our wedding gown just yet ...

The other title ...

- THE RAPTURE - ARE YOU READY TO FINISH HIS WORK BEFORE YOU GO?

i certainly have no scripture to back this up, but in my own spirit i sense that most of us have a realy escapist attitude with our selfish (my own feeling) longings to being taken out of here, and there's still some work left yet undone ... i used to long for rapture the same way once, but wouldn't it be so much better, and more like our Lord, if our attitude was about our becoming serious, to the point of alarm the fact that Hell is swallowing up souls everyday , to an awakening of our need to really take on The Great Commission ...

It's for this reason that my longing for REVIVAL has far replaced my once so self-centered longing for RAPTURE ... With REVIVAL not only will we be refined to being a Church without spot or wrinkle, but such subsequent holiness and purity within us will give Holy Spirit unrestricted capacity in us for The Dove to fill us to the lifting up of The Lamb, that He can then draw in all the vessels of mercy yet remaining ...

Then WE ALL can be ready to get on outta here!

Jesus wasn't talking to mere Jews in Mt 24, but His disciples, His followers, His church.

NLONG wrote:
There is no pre-trib rapture. In Mt 24 Jesus clearly details basically the end just before His return to the kindgom. Notice He doesn't return until after the "tribulation of those days." What else do you really need? Just because a bunch of men with degrees say it's so, doesn't mean squat. I've witnessed long enought to understand that you can twist scriptures this way and that enough to support just about any wild fantasy you can dream up.

Jesus said it, that settles it, now believe.

Fine Jesus returns AFTER the trib, I agree, but we meet Him in the air, thats before the trib. Jesus doesn't come back twice, He calls us to Him, (before the trib) then He judges the earth (trib) and those who remain faithful are the sheep (not the Bride, they're gone) in the sheep and goat parable, Then He returns to earth (with us - 10,000s of His saints Jude v14)

Chuck Missler is very good on this, he's worth a listen if you want to know more scriptures that show us going before the trib.

Do you have any more scriptures that points to a Post Trib Rapture?

Allhavesinned, please read this article by David Servant called "The Rapture and the End Times": http://shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_29.htm

He wrote a little more defense on the subject than I have time to right now and does a good job. Please read it if you are really interested.

In regards to the Body of Christ being only a remnant as opposed to the great masses that claim to be part of it today, look at the following scriptures:

[b]Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat [/b]

[b]Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. [/b]

[b]1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [/b]

Also in looking at the parables of the wheat and tares and the good and bad fish, (Mat 13) we can clearly see that there are many imposters.

Also, we can look at the fruit of true conversion. See 1 John for that. A true child of God does not commit willful sin and remain unrepentant, he loves his brethren, and he has the witness of the Spirit within himself. VERY FEW demonstrate these fruits of true conversion (see 1 John 3:3-9 and Hebrew 10:26-31 as well for proof that a Christian does not continue in any form of willful sin).

On top of this, we must not only have a negative unrighteousness (in the sense that we are free from all forms of known sin), but we must also have a positive righteousness. Along these lines, Jesus said that those who do not forsake all cannot be His disciple, that if we love anybody even in our own family more than Him then we're not worthy of Him, and that Hell very probably awaits those who do not help the poor or less fortunate (see Sheep and Goat judgment in Mat 25).

How many Christians do you know who meet these requirements?

(Side note: these things do not save anybody, Christ alone and faith in His name saves - these things are simply the FRUITS or RESULTS of true conversion, which proves that only a very small remnant have been truly converted and continue to walk in the holiness without which no one will see the Lord)

RevivalArmy, I will read that article, I am interested and open, I just had a thought though;
does it really matter, I mean if we just do what God wants us to then if he calls us home, raptures us or puts us through the tribulation, what is that to us, we are to trust and obey Him, the details are His alone to worry about.

Keep looking up, our redemption is nigh, (well it's nigher than it was last year ;-))

Perhaps the bottom line of it all is that "no man has the promise of tomorrow" So you or I could die today. Would we be ready to give an account?
Eschatology, as well as Theology mean nothing if they do not impact the way you live. So someone may have every answer to every question, and be able to give scripture to back every point, but not have a changed heart that breathes life into his beliefs. I know because at one time I was there!
Again, remember "we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ" so will we be like the servant that said "my master delays his coming" then he began to beat on his fellow servants perhaps with his unloving theology ;-) Yet what does our Lord say of that man? apoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
While I personally do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, and question its validity as well as origin it is most important to daily be ready to meet the Lord.

Roaringlamb, your questions...

God never said we wouldn't suffer, so we won't be raptured to stop suffering. The rapture is to take His Bride away while He pours out His wrath on the ones who didn't believe on His Son.

There is no 'secert coming' of Jesus but we will be called up to be with Him, that does not say He comes here to meet us (we meet Him in the air, the world won't see Him then)

I don't understand what you are saying about those left behind, if there is no pre trib then theres non to go so non are left behind. However if there is a pre trib rapture then those who are left would get a kick in the pants cos they missed it because they we're not properly saved.
(I guess those are the ones who become believers or 'saints' in the tribulation, but it will be hard on them)

One last point. Why did God pour His wrath upon His most beloved Child? Christ was not raptured away from the wrath of God.

if you need an answer to that one then I guess you will be going through the rapture, [b]that[/b] is the Gospel of Christ, He took our punishment.

Revival Army, I read that article, I still am not convinced, he confuses a few things like presuming the rapture starts the 7 years trib, and that the saints in the tribulation are Christians, I can see his point but I think he's misunderstood where we pre tribbers are coming from.

Are there any sermons I could listen to about Post Trib? if they're not on this site could you PM me a link.

Ta

Ste

brethren
it seems to me whether one is pre/mid/post/pre-wrath trib (not sure what that is exactly, but i've heard of it)is not of any great conseuqence...at least unless you get left behind somehow. Anyhow the bottom line is, judgement begins at the house of God so before any rapturing happens, there has to be a cleansing by the Refiner. For sure the world will get the judgment it deserves but let us not forget that the world is in such a s terrible state in large part due to our own shortcomings as ambassadors. We are the standard-bearers and as such we will get God's wrath/judgement/correction (insert your view here) first.

personally i don't think the rapture is going to be a big deal coz many people will miss that boat because many are looking forward to that and slacking off...i could be wrong however, Lord correct me if i am. i think of Noah, he wasn't raptured out of the flood, he was raptured through, if we can use rapture in that regard. in fact i know of no saint who was ever in tribulation who escaped by any other means than death. now as for the return of Christ, it seems to me the catching up of the saints will be on His way down, and since ALL the saints are caught up with Him i assume that to mean that includes the ones who come through the trib.

ultimately though, let us seek our Lord and what He desires of us and do that. If any of us find ourselves raptured or in the middle of the tribulation one thing remains the same:

[u][i][b]God's grace is sufficient for me, for you and ALL of us.[/b][/i][/u]

God bless you brethren