Faith comes before salvation

After a while of thinking on this, I've come to the conclussion that faith is not a gift to be given but a moral responsability and obligation that one has from the begining as an inherant attribut. Faith is an attribute equal to fidelity.

[b]Romans 10:17[/b] [color=990000]So, consequently, faith is by hearing, but hearing through the word of God.[/color]
What this means is that when someone opens the Scriptures, they are revieling truths that persuade one to act with obediance and trust in whom the Scritures are writen from.

[b]2Thes 2:10[/b] [color=990000]and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.[/color]
This verse describes them that did not recieve faith because they love not the truth.
[u]Truth is actualy a term for reality[/u].

in other words [b]Romans 10:17[/b] sais, faith is by aknowlaging the truth heard, and accepting and acting upon it as the word of God which is the basis of truth.

Faith is a moral obligation that all men have to start with, otherwise, how would God judge one with out giveing the faith to the person being judged?

in other words [b]Romans 10:17[/b] sais, faith is by aknowlaging the truth heard, and accepting and acting upon it as the word of God which is the basis of truth.

Faith is a moral obligation that all men have to start with, otherwise, how would God judge one with out giveing the faith to the person being judged?

I don’t know if this happens to everyone, but there are times when you hear God speak and you don’t know how to answer. I like it when this happens – it reminds me of the Ark of the Covenant being brought back to Jerusalem.

II Samuel chapter 6 verse six: But when they arrived at the threshing floor of Nacon, the oxen stumbled, and Uzzah put out his hand to steady the Ark of God. (7) Then the Lord’s anger blazed out against Uzzah for doing this, and God struck him dead beside the Ark of God.

II Samuel chapter 6 verse nine David was now afraid of the Lord and asked, “How can I ever bring the Ark of the Lord back into my care?” (10) So David decided not to move the Ark of the Lord into the City of David. He took it instead to the home of Obed-edom of Gath. (11) The Ark of the Lord remained there with the family of Obed-edom for three months, and the Lord blessed him and his entire household.

THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God

I find his WORD to be very much like this Ark if not entirely The "Ark"

[color=0033FF]Your words spoke to me in an area where i needed to respond/My Vow[/color]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The measure of faith. The word faith here is most evidently put for religion, or Christianity. Faith is the main thing in religion. It constitutes its first demand; and the Christian religion, therefore, is characterized by its faith, or its confidence in God. See Mr 16:16. Comp. Heb 11:1-40; Ro 4:1-25. We are not therefore to be elated in our view of ourselves; we are not to judge of our own characters by wealth, or talent, or learning; but by our attachment to God, and by the influence of faith on our minds. The meaning is, judge yourselves, or estimate yourselves, by your piety. The propriety of this rule is apparent,

(1.) because no other standard is a correct one, or one of value. Our talent, learning, rank, or wealth, is a very improper rule by which to estimate ourselves. All may be wholly unconnected with moral worth; and the worst as well as the best men may possess them.

(2.) God will judge us in the day of judgment by our attachment to Christ and His Faith, (Mt 25:1-46) and that is the true standard by which to estimate ourselves here. Like the 5 virgins that did not trim their lamps (faith of Christ)or have any oil,(Holy Spirit), we must trust in the Life and Faith of Jesus Christ as our only means to a Christ Faith Filled heart and Mind that is His in expression to the world.

(3.) Nothing else will secure and promote humility but this. All other things may produce or promote pride, but this will effectually secure humility. The fact that God has given all that we have; most of effect the the life we not live we live by the Faith of the Son of God by His Mind that is not in us, the fact that the poor and obscure may have as true an elevation of character as ourselves; the consciousness of our own imperfections and short-comings in the Christian faith; (Christ ones Faith) and the certainty that we are soon to be arraigned to try this great question, whether we have evidence that we are the friends of God, will all tend to promote humbleness of mind, and to bring down our usual inordinate self-estimation. If all Christians judged themselves in this way, it would remove at once no small part of the pride of station and of life from the world, and would produce deep attachment for those who are blessed with the Faith of Christ living in the gospel, even though they may be unadorned by any of the wealth or trappings which now promote pride and distinctions among men. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Let us live by the Faith that is come by Jesus Christ unto our Father, knowing that His Faith is the only acceptance by the Father unto our Life in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Faith is a moral obligation that all men have to start with, otherwise, how would God judge one with out giveing the faith to the person being judged?

Logic,

Interesting that you brought this up. I pondered over this as well for the longest time. I have also long since reckoned faith and Word as inseparable, edit, add.for the Christians. Faith without God's Word (in any form) is not faith but mere imagination. In other words,in a sense, faith by way of one's acknowledgment/belief of the Word(written and living), has come in as a gift package, just as what you quoted," faith cometh by hearing, hearing, by the Word of God ".

However, with this particular verse in mind,
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

God would probably judge one by Grace dispised, or the gift( of faith and Word) refused. Just as Esau dispised his birthright. No one can really claims before Him as to one not "given" that faith, because that faith has been given through the Word.

Am I confusing you? probably.. :)

Wasn't it faith with the woman that Jesus called a dog?(Mat 15:24-28)
Wasn't it faith with the centirian that bid Jesus not to come with him but to only say a word?(Mat 8:9-10)
All these had faith with out being saved.

apparently they [i]heard[/i]

edit. confused! what were you getting at?

Faith is a gift of God, all faith. Even the Faith of Jesus Christ, since He left all His personal attributes in a place where He had to depend on His Father to do all things and learned discipline by the things He suffered. His Faith came by the power of God the Father.

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

What is lacking in faith? It is Love. Faith without the Love of Christ and the Father and by the Holy Spirit is nothing. How could anybody know the love that rules Faith if Christ did not die on the Cross for the Love of His Father for His elect. No man new that mystery until it was accomplished on the Cross, that is why Paul says, "it is Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

That has been God's complaint all along, I give you a law and you make the Law your God. I give you my Son and you make the Law your salvation. What I have wanted all along is your Love because It is your God who love you first. Please by the Faith I have given you in My Son and His love, by giving Himself for you in love, Love me back as I have put that Love in you by giving you new birth in Christ Jesus so you can understand the things of My Kingdom. Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

This is the Power of the Faith of Jesus Christ that is now in believers by the new birth.

In the Love of Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Faith is a gift of God, all faith.

Strong Greek #4102
πίστις
pistis ,(pis'-tis)
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Can one be given any of this?

Faith is also a response to truth and response can not be a gift.
[b]Ephes 2:8[/b] [color=990000]by the kindness of God you are saved, through responding to Him, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;[/color]

"Can one be given any of this?"

All of it. Praise God.

1Cr 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Cr 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

With out Christ, Faith is nothing and our love is as dirty rags. The Faith of Christ with the Love of Christ in us we can do all things by presenting all men perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

All this in Christ Jesus, perfect in His Wisdom, Perfect in His Faith, Perfect in His Love, Justified and Made Perfect by His Righteousness, Perfect Redemption in Him, Perfect Sanctification made unto us by the Father.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I Praise God for the Faith He has given me to be conformed to the Mind of Christ, by renewing my mind by the Holy Spirit of God to the Mind of Christ which He has given me.

By the Faith of Jesus Christ: Phillip

Who's Faith are we Justified by? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

"by the Faith of Jesus Christ" "that we might be Justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ" Amen

We are dead on the Cross. Our faith died with Christ on the Cross. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.. Who's Faith???????

Christinyou wrote:
"Can one be given any of this?"

All of it. Praise God.

We must decide for our self, God does not decide for us or make us decide.

Faith is the decission, not being given the truth to choose from.

Nonetheless, you are correct in all of wht you said, but you have misunderstood my point.
I do appologize for not being more clear.

1Cr 4:4 [color=990000]For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.[/color]
Faith is not the knowlege, but the choice to stand on the knowlege.

With out Christ, Faith is nothing and our love is as dirty rags. The Faith of Christ with the Love of Christ in us we can do all things by presenting all men perfect in Christ Jesus.

My dear brothers,

****READ CAREFULLY****

Here are a few points to my Calvanist brothers that believe that the act of "faith" or "believing" is a work that God sees as a filthy rag.

I plead with you to read everything in it's context, and consider the character of God.

John 1:12-13 (KJV)

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Point -- Verse 13 is prequalified with...
AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM ......then they were born of God.

Man must first believe God's promise and step out in complete faith and God will do what he promised. AND THIS STEPPING OUT IN FAITH OR BELIEVING GOD'S PROMISE OF GRACE IS NOT A WORK TOWARDS GOD IT'S A SURRENDERING TO GOD.

Rom 4:4 (KJV) (Stress by DesiJr for clarity)

4Now to him that WORKETH is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

--Point-- Verse 4 shows us the result of our works out of our flesh does not give us the grace we need for salvation.

--Point-- Verse 5 shows us clearly that BELIEVING is NOT A WORK, it defines it as faith that is counted as righteousness.

CHECK THIS OUT...GOD PRECEDES THE ENTIRE BOOK THAT TELLS YOU HOW TO BE MADE RIGHT IN GODS EYES WITH THIS STATEMENT IN VERSES 3 AND FOUR!!!

Lev 1:3 (KJV)(stress by DesiJr for clarity)
3If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

--POINT-- This word voluntary is only used once in the hebrew tongue. It means pleasure or pleasing ones heart or out of love.
If you believe God's Word and receive it and out of love do what he asks of you....OBEDIENCE.... it is then that God will accept you and your faith is counted as righteousness.(verse 4 above)

*** Last two verses ***

Deut 30:6,10 (KJV)
6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

---POINT--- Calvanist love to use verse 6 to prove their point that man can't surrender to God on his own free will....but KEEP READING!

Verse 10 tells you that the promises of God converting your heart must is all true...and WILL COME TO PASS ..... IF ..... turn to the Lord will all your heart. Then he will do the miracle of the rebirth and he will make you righteous and holy because your faith in the one that is righteous and holy.

Read everything that Jesus did and God did for His people. In order for God to do something specific in an individual's life they must first believe the Word and then through their faith they will step into the perfect will of God for their lives. BELIEVING GOD AND TRUSTING HIM IS NOT A WORK, AND IM SORRY BUT ITS NOT A FILTHY RAG.

I pray to you Father that you reveal yourself to us and tear down every imagination that we and the devil himself have built up to separate us from you. Thank you that your word says that nothing....NOTHING can separate the love that You have for us. We rely on your grace. In Jesus' name.
Amen

Desi Jr.

Deuteronomy 31:11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

Quote by Desi:

" BELIEVING GOD AND TRUSTING HIM IS NOT A WORK, AND IM SORRY BUT ITS NOT A FILTHY RAG. "

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:29-30 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.

Sounds like works to me and also as dirty rags to the Lord. "Until they were ended"
They were ended as a people to the Lord in A.D. 70 when the temple was destroyed and Christ became the only way anyone can be saved. God ended their wife status when the Temple Curtain was wrent.

The Faith of Jesus Christ is the only way anyone can be saved and that by Grace also. Not by any works lest any man should boast.

This Faith and Grace is in Christ. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Christ is our Good Works because we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. Our old works are as dirty rags and any person that does not receive the Grace and Faith in Christ Jesus will always be as dirty rags to God.

This Faith is the same Faith that leads to salvation dependent upon Him and Him alone.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith: 4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis

from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

By Him through God's Grace and The Faith: 4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis

from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

In reliance of the faith of Jesus Christ for salvation, we are assured from inside by: "to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield."
The root word of Faith, "Pistis" which is: 3982. peitho
Search for G3982 in KJVSL
peiqw peitho pi'-tho

a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

The same Faith of Jesus Christ in Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

And also 2:20

I am not a Calvinist, but I am a Christ one.

In Christ by the Grace of God and the Faith of Christ: Phillip

My brother,

Qutestion:
Who's faith is counted for righteousness according the the scripture verse quoted below?

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Answer:
Mankind's faith

You say brother Philip:

..."Sounds like works to me and also as dirty rags to the Lord. "Until they were ended"
They were ended as a people to the Lord in A.D. 70 when the temple was destroyed and Christ became the only way anyone can be saved. God ended their wife status when the Temple Curtain was wrent."

If this above statement is true then are you calling God a liar?

Were not many, many individuals counted as righteous by their faith in God's promises?:

Examples:
Abel, Noah, Ninevah (after Jonah preached, yet were destroyed later because they lost faith), Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses...and so on and so forth...God is the same yesterday today and forever....it always been about US TRUSTING GOD AND LIVING IN THAT TRUST that has made us right with God.

This is THE relationship...He creates...we believe...so, we are right with God.

So, brother Philip do you say that believing God at His Word (having faith in God) is a work?

Desi, Jr.

I.Where does faith come from?
a.Jesus-Heb 12:3
b.word of God-romans 10-7
c.Holy spirit- gal.5.22
d.Mans Heart.-Romans 10.9

II. how does faith work?
a. thru LOVE- Gal.5.6
Love is the Key element to make faith true and effective..... So before faith can work in a man's heart to beleive in the Lord, Man's heart must be filled with Love for the Lord. Without this Love, man's natural faith in God would be purly selfish no matter how right it would seem in our own eyes.
so a man's heart needs to made over in Love so that God would place his faith in his newly made son's heart to believe to salvation.
rf. 1st corith.13.1-2;deut 30.6; Ezk. 36. 24-26; ACTS 13.48
III. Man after the fall
a. heart always evil-Gen 6.5
b. blindness in heart- eph 4.18
c. enemy of God.- rom. 5.10
d. impenitent (Non-repented) heart rom 2.5
IV. conclusion
Man can not have faith toward God unless God changes his heart so man can love God. If God never chaged mans heart first man could not have faith toward GOD. Man's heart is to blind, evil and unrepentent. to love GOD
love andy

In reply to logics original post i will give some food for thought, although i haven't searched much out...

I agree with logic and want to expound a couple things.

But first i must say i applaud your theology and enjoy this study. You are a man after my own heart!
The living Word

ok...

2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon * their heart.
2co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

A man can hear the bible or scriptures preached but never "see or hear what the spirit is saying"

Only the spirit can reveal the son to a person. Therefore Yes, understanding must be given by god. How does God then judge who will understand and who won't. It's by whether or not your heart is turned to him. If it is, he will take the veil off of your heart and you will see the Spirit and Truth of the Word of God and not just the natural(flesh and blood for the pharisees or ink and paper for unbelievers today.)

After God reveals the Truth(christ) you have the option of obeying what you hear or not. What you hear is words, but God can make those words life.

Now there is a difference between the faith in Romans that justifies and the faith in James that can be dead or perfect. The works in Romans is talking about the law while James is in no way talking about the law but about obedience and action with your belief. Because perfect faith is more than just believing. Pistis is the greek word for faith and it is a verb. This means faith is an action. James contrasts belief and belief in action. If you don't obey your belief, your faith is dead. If you do obey, your works(works here not meaning the law but obedience to the truth) mingle together to make perfect faith which can save, move mountains, and heal. It can do anything.

WHAT IS THE MAIN INGREDIENT FOR SALVATION. I say its not perfect faith, but love for God. Because Faith comes from God. And God will give you faith if you love him.

Faith worketh by love.

Ultimately i say this. God doesn't decide good or evil only by faith but by love. Because love produces faith. "love believeth all things." God is truth. And when you love God, you love truth and believe truth.

i must contradict one thing logic.. Saving Faith is not an obligation of man or else it would be a work and you could earn salvation. You see. Saving Faith comes from God, which he gives you when you love him.

"according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

I encourage everybody that reads this to meditate much on it as this post has brought me to an exciting revelation. Bless God and thank you so much again logic for your love for God.

So according to andres' comments 1st God gives you a new heart, then you have faith to believe and be saved?

how can a man submit to God and believe to salvation when that man : hates God, is blinded, and not sorry for willfully sinning against a Holy God.
Unless....
God takes that man and breaks his heart, makes that mans heart over and put his Spirit to give that man life to Believe with Loving perfect faith. that my Christian brothers is GRACE!!! God chosing a sinful dirty creature like us, who deaserve the lowest and hottest section of hell, and justifing us to become a son in His everlasting kingdome.. This is Grace thru and thru , And It's from God alone, Please let us not put our dirty little hands on God Pure everlasting Grace by saying it was "OUR" faith that saved us.
love
andy

"let us not put our dirty little hands on God Pure everlasting Grace by saying it was "OUR" faith that saved us."

Is this a biblical statement?

Isaiah 7:9..stand firm in your faith
Mat 9:22...your faith has healed you
Mat 9:29 according to your faith will it be done
Luke 7:50...YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU
Luke 17:19.....your faith has made you well
1cor 15:14...if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Peter 1:9...RECEIVING THE END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.

I love God and You Guys,
Desi

" our faith " is our work, in thinking that we can produce something to satisfy God's requiremnents..
remember where does a christian's faith comes from..
.. "every Good thing comes from above"... your scripture quotes are valid, but again, what is the motivating force behind a christians' faith?
and where does that force come from?