Future sins forgiven already?

Although OSAS has been covered in this forum, I have not seen one aspect of this teaching covered. That is having your sins, past, present, and yet committed, forgiven upon one act of faith. I can find no scriptural reference to future sins being already forgiven by a previous appropriation of faith. And this seems to be in direct conflict with a parable that Jesus told in Matthew 18.

21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

This debtor in the parable clearly represents a believer for he threw himself upon the mercy of the king and his debt was cleared. Yet when the king learned of his unforgiveness, he became wrathful and handed him over to the torturers "until he should repay all that was owed him." How can our heavenly Father "do the same to [us]" if our sins are already forgiven upon one act of faith in the past? I don't find the Bible ever presenting the fact that a believer must sin and that those sins are already forgiven but only IF we sin, we have an advocate and IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrightousness.

What do you think?

I noticed this is your first post, so welcome to the site. You will find a wealth of resources on this site that will cause you to grow and mature in the things of God.

Once saved always saved (OSAS)is popular, but not scriptural.

Not only in the scripture you quoted but in Hebrews 10 v38-39 it says, 'Now the just shall live by faith, but if anyone draw back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

You can't draw back unless you first went forward. By that I mean coming to Christ for salvation, not just going forward in a meeting.

We can lose our salvation.

If not, people would just sin from now until kingdom come (literally), and then, with all that sordidness resting upon them, expect to enter heaven.

Still, that is just my understanding of scripture.

God bless.

I am not an "OSAS" guy, though I don't believe God redeems, and then un-redeems. This aside, I believe that the genuinly born-again child of God is justified from all his sins during the moment of salvation, in that he will not be sent to the lake of fire for them. So he is not condemned for sins, but the things that he did not deal with prior to his death will be dealt with at the Judgment Seat of Christ, where God will burn away all his wood, hay, and stubble, there.

So yes, justified sinners are cleansed from all sins: past, present, and future, but God forbid that we should sin that grace should abound. And that man that abuses this, going on in sin becuase he believes in "once saved, always saved", I don't believe he is fallen from grace, I think he just tasted the heavenly gift, but didn't drink from the fountain.

Luke 7:

[40] And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
[41] There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
[42] And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
[43] Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

I get from this that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. So I may have had more than another prior to salvation, but we are equally justified upon conversion. Both saved by grace through faith. Now if I have more sin than another after conversion, we will not stand equally at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I will not recieve reward as much as the other, and I will not be ruling over heavenly cities like my brother might be.

I am imperfect, this is my stand with what I know of the Scripture, and I am willing to hear anyone whether they agree of disagree in any degree. I just threw that in as I have had many newcomers think I am trying to tell them they are wrong and I am right. I am not. I would love to be proven wrong on any level. You are welcome here, and we want to know what you think regardless of how many of us agree or disagree on doctrine. We all agree on the most important things. No one tramples the blood under foot, praise God!

Welcome to the forum, dear brother!

letsgetbusy i must say you should really search the scriptures. future sins aren't forgiven because they don't exist. A sin isn't forgiven that doesn't exist. Can i be charged of sins i haven't yet committed? Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually. He did once unto sin. All sin generally. So either your forgiven for "sin" or you aren't. The wood hay and stubble that are burnt up are the works we do that produce no fruit. Works that aren't done in the right heart. Silver and gold are found underground where there is hard work and no glory. Wood hay and stubble are easy to gather and everybody can see your collection. It may look like a lot compared to one little precious stone, but it has no value. Also the bible is very clear on the fact that God does as you put it "unredeem" people. i might ask as well... what is the difference in god not "unredeeming" people and osas. They are the same thing to me

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome * , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

1co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means *, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Brother Matt,

I welcome your disagreement. Let me defend my thoughts.

First, the Scriptures, searched thoroughly, state that Christ paid for all sin, period. Not sins up to that point only, but all sin:

Psalm 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is there any sin that Jesus did not paid for? If so, what is it?

"Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually."

Which of your sins did Jesus not die for?

Jumping ahead - blaphemy of the Holy Ghost is not the rejection of Christ's salvation by the believer, but the rejection of God's redeeming work to the unredeemed. Whatever you believe about this verse, it was not being addressed to to believers, but those who rejected Christ completely. I agree with your wood, hay, vs precious stone analogy.

I don't see any evidence of salvation in the 2nd Peter passage. Just knowing how to get saved, having a seed planted in your heart and considering it, doesn't save. The seed that is allowed to grow does. The fruit doesn't save, it is evidence of the salvation. The fruit is evidence of what you can't see; the well-watered, grounded root.

"what is the difference in god not "unredeeming" people and osas. They are the same thing to me"

What I meant by this is I don't preach the OSAS message, the way it is generally preached today. There is never anywhere in the Scriptures where God says, 'do this to be saved, but you can stop there if you want and still be saved, even though I want you to be crucified with Me.'

The same God that draws us to be saved, draws us to pick up our cross. And where I seperate from the modern way of OSAS thinking is that I believe there are MILLIONS of people who think they can come take a quick swig of living water, and run out the door before being issued a cross, and they are okay. When the reality of it is they had a good seed that was choked out when they considered what Christ asks for.

Many of those people, they came forward at a meeting with tears, turned some bad habits over, but then reverted a couple months down the road; you maybe would say were saved and then fell away. My stance is that they were never saved.

I have no problem with your stance, by the way, I think that realizing that individual is not saved now is something we both agree on. I say he never was, you say he was and isn't now. I would not go round and round with someone about that. You say wait and see if he falls away, and I say wait and see if the seed really took root. Now let's go plant and water, brother.

Paul's 1 Cor 9 was just simply stating that it would be a joke for him to be like the man from four chapters earlier, and being a drunk or an adulterer, and try to "preach to others." I know the Greek word here is also translated 'reprobate.' But Paul also said he would be condemned for his brethren that they might be converted. But in reality, his condemnation wouldn't do anything, he was just making an extreme statement. Similarly here, he is just saying his preaching with a sinful life would be like placing dung next to the stream and inviting others to drink.

As far as the 1 Cor 10 goes, I don't think the wilderness is talking solely about salvation. After all, Jesus went into the wilderness after being baptized with the Holy Ghost to be tempted. Israel was sent into the wilderness after being baptized in the Red Sea, to be tempted. Jesus came out of the wilderness full of the Holy Ghost. So I see this more as a testing of the genuine convert, more than an apostacy issue. Even if I believed you could be un-redeemed, I would not point to this passage. The wilderness is always used to try God's people, not unsave them. If you know of a biblical reference to prove me wrong, please point me there.

I look forward to reading your response and continuing the discussion later, dear brother. I have to go.

Brother Hal,

Thank you for your insight and your welcoming me. Rather than tarry off into other "proof texts" I would like to bring it back to the parable in Matthew 18. I understand that you believe that all sins, whether past, present, or future, are forgiven upon coversion but I do not see how that could be understood in light of what this parable says. I've read several commentaries on the passage and have come up with some basic interpretations, contrary to my own, of the end result. Here are three:

1. The debtor wasn't actually a believer because no believer would behave in such a manner after having been shown such an act of mercy.

The problem with this interpretation is that the debtor was freely and fully forgiven when he threw himself upon the mercy of the king. What forgiveness does an unbeliever have from God? None. Otherwise, it would not be necessary to repent and BELIEVE. And while the debtor should have shown mercy (v. 33), he did not and thus he incurred the wrath of his master.

2. The tormenting represents chatisement from God.

We know the Lord chastises His children but this interpretation is inconsistent for several reasons. One, the eternalness of the torment. The debt was unpayable (v. 25) so we should expect the debt once retracted would be unpayable and thus eternal. Also, the second punishment was much more severe. Before, he was only threatened with being sold into slavery (v. 25) but now he faces torture! Torment until the debt is repaid which I've show from the passage is considered impossible. Are we to assume that our chastisement from God is a much more severe treatment than that before we were regenerated? However, the Bible states a worst fate for those who defect from the faith (2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 10:26-31).

3. The parable was hypothetical.

I don't understand the position of referring to something as hypothetical. It's as if this doesn't have some actual application to us such as "The story is hypothetical. The man was once again punished because of his sin but this is just a hypothetical situation. It doesn't have any practical application to the believer." Jesus certainly applied the parable actually with his words "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you!" The parable is a hypothetical situation in that it is the antecedent clause of a conditional statement (i.e. if so and so, then so and so). "IF you do not forgive, THEN My Heavenly Father will not forgive you."

How can God NOT forgive us for something if future sins are already forgiven? It would be contradictory. The truth is that Jesus' sacrifice was a PROVISION. IF we sin we have an Advocate. IF we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us. The Bible does not promise that forgiveness is incurred before an act is committed.

Thoughts?

Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually. He did once unto sin. All sin generally. So either your forgiven for "sin" or you aren't.

Are you talking about salvation from "original sin?" an in...
1 Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
[color=0000FF]4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [/color]
6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls...
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[color=0000FF] 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [/color]
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[color=0000FF] 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. [/color]
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[color=0000FF] 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.[/color]

future sins aren't forgiven because they don't exist. A sin isn't forgiven that doesn't exist. Can i be charged of sins i haven't yet committed?

Although future sins do not yet exist to us finite creatures, are they not known to our Father? And has He not already made remedy?

1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[color=0000FF] 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/color]

If God's gift to me is "incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away," at what point do I corrupt and defile it? Which of my sins, that I am sure to commit and God has already made remedy for, costs me my salvation? Is there any time limit in which I must confess this sin or is it any unconfessed sin that I die with?
I don't know, maybe it's the walking in light thing, either you are or you aren't. ;-)

I would like to humbly throw this in...

People should research the doctrine of Perserverance of the Saints before they post about it. I find most people who bash it as a "liscense to sin" have never even looked at the doctrine in depth. It is not the liscense to sin that some make it out to be. Those who you see living in constant unrepentant sin while claiming "OSAS", very simply, were never born again to begin with.

I praise God that I can rest secure in the peace of His promises of salvation, and these wonderful promises make me want to honor his Holy Name by living in righteousness by His strength!

Hi TaylorOtwell...

Those who you see living in constant unrepentant sin while claiming "OSAS", very simply, were never born again to begin with.

I suppose the "bottom line" is simple: Don't abandon your relationship with Christ or return to a life of sin (2 John 1:8-10).

:-)

i find two groups often at work...those who make it too easy to backslide and those that make it impossible. thank God for the balance of grace in his word...

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, california has written a great book for study on this subject.
it's called "Calvinism, Arminianism and The Word of God"
filled with scriptures and answers to the most common and complicated questions on the subject on eternal security as well as predestination and our future sins....
thanx and God Bless

I suppose the "bottom line" is simple: Don't abandon your relationship with Christ or return to a life of sin (2 John 1:8-10).

Amen! :-)

Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as * * on us at the beginning.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ *; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

Here paul uses the baptism in the holy ghost to prove the salvation of the gentiles.

Agreeing then that a man that is baptized in the Holy ghost must first be saved, i ask you to consider this.

I brought a man from work release in the jail to church and with tears he confessed his sifulness and asked christ into his heart. We prayed for him and he received the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. When jason got out of work release he went right back to the hog pen and has forsaken everything he started to walk. Now, was he baptized in the holy ghost and not saved? did he fake the tongues and we not know? is he still saved now as he embraces the world and its filthiness and avoids God? The answer to all of these is NO.

2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome * , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

How do you tell me that you don't see salvation in these 2 scriptures? "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOUR jesus christ, they are AGAIN entangled. If your mind is not open to correction you won't receive it. He that hateth reproof is bruitish.

And once again there is only one way to get your name in the lambs book of life. thats salvation.. agreed?
Re 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

please also not that the white and washed robes can be once again defiled. Is there any way to clean your garments other than the "washing of water of the word"

Concerning 1 Cor. 10. It doesn't mean the baptism in the holy ghost the the baptism in to death with christ jesus. Deliverance from the bondage of egypt(sin) It also says they drank of that rock jesus christ. They drank of the living water but turned back to idols and vanity.

Was is not by faith that the children of Israel ate the passover and survived the last plague? Did the application of blood save them or where they not altogether counted justified by faith?

Secondly, I have full confidence in my salvation today do you not have full confidence in yours.

Now are you going to tell me that either one of us can now leave off the faith (knowing that perfect faith is more than just belief "for even the devils believe", but true faith including saving faith is "faith wrought together with works" The greek for wrough meaning mixed or mingled.) and go directly back in to my fornications, drugs, lying, stealing and hatred. Knowing that "he that hateth his brother is a murderer and ye know murderer hath eternal life in him.

One last thing. I can't remember who wrote that they were not going to use "proof scripture" but the bible says ...

2ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness:

If you don't use the bible to prove, then your not proving anything.

Now i want to lastly say thank you for your discussions. Iron sharpeneth iron and i really appreciate you guys. Please don't take me as a railer or accuser. I love doctrine and theology so i get into it a lot. I also take a firm stand on what i believe. But know that i also am no fool and desire the instruction of wisdom that correction holds. Thank you with all love and humility.

Good post, brother. I sense a firestorm of challenge in the making. If everyone stays humble and teachable, we should have some good discussions.

Brother Matt,

Addressing your first question, I agree with Leonard Ravehill, that speaking in tongues proves nothing. Mormons, Muslims, and many cults speak in tongues. Missionaries, according to Ravenhill, have been heard to speak English around the fire while dancing. The only evidence of the Holy Ghost is a holy life. I am not a cessationist or anything like that, but tongues and tears don't prove anything. Wait and look for fruits meet for repentance. The greatest revivals in America and England had no tongues. Many revivals in other countries did have tongues. I am not saying they are not legitimate, I am simply saying they are not the end-all proof of anything. For poor Jason:

"the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

Adressing 2 Peter, the stony ground / thorny ground hearer in the parable of the sower parallels this individual Peter speaks of:

2 Peter 2: they have escaped the pollutions of the world

Mark 4: when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness

Luke 8: receive the word with joy / when they have heard, go forth

----------

2 Peter 2: they are again entangled therein, and

Mark 4: affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended

Luke 8: these have no root / choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life

----------

2 Peter 2: the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

As far as being brutish, I suppose every theologian, preacher, evangelist, teacher, and professor who doesn't believe in apostacy fit into the brute category, and all that believe in apostacy are more educated (if only Spurgeon had studied a bit more). C'mon, brother, that's a bit low, don't you think.

I would agree that all saints have their names written in the Book of Life.

Ex 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

I guess we don't have a chance. Oh, wait...

Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

I am sorry if it offends you that I don't get the same interpretation from the Rev 3 passage. I hear Jesus saying he won't damn the saved. So actually I hear the opposite of what you are trying to prove with it. I hear him saying He won't cast out those who He has redeemed.

On 1 Cor 10, are you then saying that God puts His people in the wilderness to unsave the redeemed whose faith isn't pure?

"Now are you going to tell me that either one of us can now leave off the faith...and go directly back in to my fornications, drugs, lying, stealing and hatred"

No. I don't mean that, and I think you know I didn't say that. What I said about the person who does this, was that they were never saved. You say they fell away, I say they never had the Word rooted in their heart.

I will end with this question. To what degree of obediance does God demand of us for us to keep our salvation if salvation can be lost? Show me with Scripture references, please.

Until next time in the never-ending debate...

euangelion,

What I see in this illustration is that the man was not sorrowful for his debt, until he was going to be thrown into jail. Who wouldn't be. Satan himself would be foolish not to say he was sorry. So the man's attitude shows nothing. (...many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord). His worship shows nothing. Just an empty gesture to save his neck under pressure (like many do under a heavy sermon).

And notice, what the same man said to the king when he was brought the second time: the same words. He thought empty words, which obviously did not show his heart condition, could get him out of a predicament whenever convenient. Just as many think a 'sorry' to God here and there will cover a multitude of sins.

So I see in this story, one who never turned, never changed, and never was born-again. The forgiveness was offered to him, just as the blood is offered to "every man." Forgiveness is a free gift, but it is not cheap.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So this man, if viewed through the parable of the sower (Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?), has no fruit, received the king's decision with gladness, and doesn't seem to show any compassion that the king had on him. No evidence of a heart-change on the outside, shows no work of Spirit-birth on the inside.

brother letsgetbusy

my first concern is the offense you took to my "he that hateth reproof is bruitish." i will only say i didn't mean to attack. If you took offense to me please forgive me. If you took offense to the word. ... anyways, i count you as a brother and my intent was not to hurt or throw a cheap shot.

i will use the parable you speak of to make a small demonstration

In the parable of the sower, the stony ground represents those who "receive the word" are paralleled to the man in this parable.

Lu 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Lu 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Lu 14:30 Saying, This * * man began to build, and was not able to finish.

The man BEGAN to build. He just doesn't have what it takes to finish. Paul said "i have ran a good race" and "fight the good fight of faith"

Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you *, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.

1co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

note that he is speaking of "brothers" not those of this world.

Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Also, in the parable of the sower, the seed that fell among thorny ground is not a backslider. For the bible never said the plant died. Jesus said the plant didn't produce fruit. The word of God grew in the man's life, but it didn't produce any fruit. The plant lived. But the cares and deceitfulness of riches choked out the man from doing the work of the lord. Producing no fruit and thereby not pleasing god. So it is rejected.

Were the galatians christians?
Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Ga 4:8 Howbeit then *, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ?
Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain

1ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
1ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Re 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Jesus can't spew you out of his mouth unless you are first in him.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Note here that is says the blood of the covenant wherewith he was SANCTIFIED. Meaning a man who was sanctified. the same as in 2 peter 2.

Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid *.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

1co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now tell me notwithstanding, are you saved? Are you sure your saved... if you say yes, then are you telling me that it is impossible for you to fall. This theory of yours, if it were true, would mean a man would never be able to have true assurance that he was saved. If you say you have this assurance in yourself, then you would be telling me that you could do anything you wanted fearlessly and go to Heaven. This can't be the truth.

Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another *, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

A man is not a brother unless he is saved. So how can a brother be condemned?

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
This speaks of members of the body of christ which are unpleasing to god being taken away.

To answer your question about where the line of backsliding is, I can't draw the line. But this I know. God is a perfect judge. And he will judge that.

in all honest... as meditating up my own post. I feel God revealed to me a view i haven't quite seen. I feel i in some way understand your view notwithstanding, and if you view is what the lord just shown me, then i to an extent agree with you. but i say, it would be very difficult for me to even put into words. Its like my spirit gets it but how to put it into the flesh i don't get.

I will for now end my part of this discussion saying that i have been given revelation. I can't say whether i fully agree with you or not notwithstanding. This is because the revelation i got is so hard to explain, i can't tell if thats what you believe or not, but it does seem similar to what i am feeling. I can say this. Praise God for giving me new understanding. Thank you so much notwithstanding for challenging me to search the word and spirit. You have yielded fruit in my life today, and i'm excited to search this matter out more!!! So until i can find a way to explain it... God bless.

I do want to say i don't take back what i said in my other posts. I just feel i have been given deeper understanding on the subject.

Just a thought to share on OSAS:

This is what I believe, salvation is a privilege and not RIGHTS.

A privilege is something that is granted to you by someone who has authority over you.

On the other hand, a right is something that you are born with and that cannot be taken away from you by anyone. (right to live)

Credit cards are privilege cards. The bank/company that issued it allows the holder to use it as long as they (bank/company) see it fit. If the bank/company sees any reason to cancel the card, the card holder will not have any rights to say no.

Now, the same thing with our salvation. Our salvation is a privilege and NOT RIGHTS.

You might say why did God saved people then let them perish at the end. Biblically, it is not God who allows people to perish but people themselves choose the path of eternal death. But to answer the question, God allows people to see & taste His grace, love, mercy, goodness, etc so that at the end no one can will have an excuse saying that he/she is not given a chance to be saved.

Peopel perish beacuse they chose too; so its God's judgment to them.

Romans 1:28 (KJV) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:20 (KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Then again, you might ask again, isn’t it salvation is by grace? TOTALLY AGREE! But do you think, God extends His SAVING GRACE in a vacuum? I strongly believe NO. The Bible tells us “It is by grace THROUGH FAITH that we are saved” (Eph. 2:8). Another thing, for the grace to pass through faith, that faith should alive (not like the Dead Sea – nothing lives & can survive there because it’s dead); this is reference to James talking about dead faith. Nothing can pass through a dead conduit & a dead faith can not save.

Future sins are forgiven:

I believe its in regards to the effectiveness of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that He can forgive past, present & future sins. But in no means should be used as an excuse saying whatever sin I do anyway God will forgive me. This is a blatant disrespect to the grace & holiness of God.

Romans 1:21-22 (KJV) 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Romans 1:32 (KJV) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!

I brought a man from work release in the jail to church and with tears he confessed his sifulness and asked christ into his heart. We prayed for him and he received the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. When jason got out of work release he went right back to the hog pen and has forsaken everything he started to walk.

Been there, Brother, and it's really heart-wrenching isn't it? There is some kind of crude name given to this type of "salvation" that really is unfair, because there are genuine conversions in prison. But there are alot who just want to 'hedge their bets.' What happens is that the person in prison is sorry that they are in prison and they are sorry that they have messed up in life, but it is not "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" but "the sorrow of the world worketh death." They think 'maybe if [u][b]I[/b][/u] say all the right things and [u][b]I[/b][/u] do what is expected of [u][b]me[/b][/u], [u][b]I[/b][/u] will do better.' It's the big [u][b]I[/b][/u] worship, which was their problem to begin with, and when they get back into the world and find that they still must face the same problem (themselves), they give it up.

True godly sorrow that leads to salvation bears the fruit of a regeneration, we begin rejoicing and can still rejoice when we face our trials of faith...
"Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
I don't think a dog returning to its vomit is an illustration of a has-been, but a never-was.
What I get from the verses from 2 Peter is "knowledge" and "known" I don't see "faith,"
but you have given me some things to pray about and ponder. I have to admit, I've felt a bit like a 'butinsky' trying to play with the big boys but I've really enjoyed reading what all of you have had to say. Peace to you, Brother.

If salvation were of grace by faith through works, a person could most assuredly loose the salvation.

Salvation is not anatomically dependant on anything man does. Salvation is a Person. The salvation of a person is in the Lambs book of Life not put there by what the person does. Are we born again? What gives us birth? How is birth confirmed? What causes birth? Does a child have a choice in his birth?

The cause of a birth is seed is put in the receptacle that gives birth. When the seed is placed, life begins, birth is incidental to the placing of the seed. The seed then is a person. If we are person's and must be born again or we cannot see the things of God, what takes place to receive that birth.

1 Peter 1:19-25 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Seed of God is places in the believer and a new person comes forth, that is Born again of Incorruptable Seed. The salvation of God is now brought forth in rebirth and that rebirth is Spirit, that is the Spirit of Christ in you, a Person, Jesus Christ. A person cannot loose his birth of Christ in him just like he cannot loose his birth into the physical world.

The only way a child is not born into the world is by miscarriage or abortion. Death appears before the manifestation of Birth, so birth never occurs and if so it was not ever birth to start with, so it was not a choice to receive or not receive birth by choice or works, Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So if birth is not of ourselves, and Grace is not of ourselves, and faith is not of ourselves unto salvation, but a Person, The Person of Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory, it is not our choice to loose our salvation, we cannot loose something that is not ours to begin with, to present every new man, born again, perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The old man is dead and he is the only one that would not choose God, so being, could loose salvation which he never possessed.

In Christ: Phillip