An (audio/video) History of HOW the Neocons Manuevered America to War in Iraq ...

Now these are most informative to all who'd like to have the timeline straight ...

[b]The War Behind Closed Doors[/b]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/view/

[b]Rumsfeld's War [/b]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/view/

i love the fact that we live in a time where even current events of short history are made into Documentaries ... Such put into perspective what's occuring in these perilous times, and makes some of us with a Christian world view wonder if what's happening is but a catalyst to our Lord revealing Himself miraculously (like in Holy Ghost fired up REVIVAL) of us! ... :-D

[color=FF0000] added 11/30/06

After thinking about this last night i wanted to post this ...

FOR THE RECORD ...

This thread was started as a provision of a history, in the natural realm, of how America came to be at war in Iraq ... i'm not particularly interested in any type of political slants, or the provings or dis-provings of what political party may have conspired to do whatever ...

AGAIN ... we all know who the ultimate evil conspirator is, and he'd like nothing better than to have us fixated on who in the natural conspired to do what, instead of fixating on and pointing the ultimate finger at him for all this evil ...

The only slant i'm interested in is God's and how such dire current events, whom i believe satan is ultimately responsible for (Isa. 14:12, Rev. 12:9) but is allowed by God - or perhaps even orchestrated by God (2 Chron. 20:6, Jer. 27:5&6, Job 12:16, Dan. 4:17), fit into God's supernatural plan and purpose for we His people, in this day and time, toward our ultimate good hopefully bringing us to major REPENTANCE & REVIVAL, and His ultimate glory ... Amen[/color]

It wasn't just the 'neo-cons' who were in agreement that Saddam was a threat:

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

Hi letsgetbusy ...

i just saw your post today ...

While the neocons and Kerry are both political opportunist, Kerry is far from being a neocon ...

Amen the neocons weren't the only ones in agreement that Saddam was a threat - but they were the only ones prepared to do something about him unilaterally ... Kerry in his opportunism expressed the point of Saddam's removal with this diplomatic qualifier;

Quote;
"Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances."

The neocons are not diplomats anymore, tho in fact they started out as such in the Democratic Party as liberals who stated that their being "mugged by reality" is what pushed them into the Republican party under Pres. Reagan, where eventually they even morphed past Reagan's strong conservative ideology ...

What were the deciding parts of such "reality" that morphed them into pushing America into war with Iraq? ... The facts that after the fall of the Soviets the increasing economic threat of the EU's agenda to become #1 became more evident, the fragility of our oil supply by Saddam's initial push into Kuwait, and the subsequent subversive destroy America agenda via Saddam's attempt to convert OPEC to a Petro-Euro instead of a Petro-dollar then, and the now Iranian, in collusion with terrorism, attempt of the same, convinced them that America was slipping in it's #1 political and enonomic influence/control of the world, and they were/are right in that assumption, and the neocons are in a desperate attempt to look out for #1, especially when it comes to oil and all following benefits ... The only problem is that what they thought would be an easy securing of Iraq has turned into a nighmare, and while their will has seemingly blown up in their faces i believe God's will in this matter will ever become more evident as time passes ...

Anyhow i've gone on longer than i intended ... Here's some more info on the neocons, who they were/are, and their agenda, altho as stated above with Rumsfeld out and Cheyney the lone one left in the White House, their influence via the outcome of the mid-term elections is greatly diminished if not stopped ...

But then that's neither here nor there now in that what they aspired to do as far as this Iraq war our Lord has allowed, all that remains to be revealed now is how will He get the glory out of all this as His truth/plan keeps marching on ...

[b]What the Heck Is a Neocon?[/b]
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/180

[b]What is a Neo-con? A: A Neoconservative[/b]
http://shockingelk.com/text/neoconservative/

[b]Where Can I Find Out More About
Neoconservatism?[/b]
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

bro Rahman
i watched that video and it is amazing how men can be so easily manipulated by the enemy. however what is even more amazing is that our Lord sees all this and has worked it into His ultimate purpose. indeed Powell, Shinseki and some of the other army bosses saw that a lot of men would be needed to secure iraq after the war which everyone knew wouldn't take too long. that other cat who talked about sending in a force of 50 000, man he was off. anyhow the neocons got what they wanted and some. this thing has ground down into a stalemate, a hole into which billions are being poured into daily. well the premise that the oil would pay for the way certainly isn't talked about any more...

this is certainly being used of God to set us up for the knocking down of our economy and bringing us to repentance. many people will be hurt, but these will be the ones whose faith has not been of Christ in God but of themselves in themselves.

it's amazing to see where all this is going...

I've wondered about this passage in relation to current events. Saddam didn't really seem to be that big of a threat to the US. He was however paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers who attacked Isreal.

[b]Isaiah 45:1-13[/b]

1 This is what the Lord says to Cyrus, his anointed one,
whose right hand he will empower.
Before him, mighty kings will be paralyzed with fear.
Their fortress gates will be opened,
never to shut again.
2 This is what the Lord says:
“I will go before you, Cyrus,
and level the mountains.[a]
I will smash down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 And I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness—
secret riches.
I will do this so you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, the one who calls you by name.

4 “And why have I called you for this work?
Why did I call you by name when you did not know me?
It is for the sake of Jacob my servant,
Israel my chosen one.
5 I am the Lord;
there is no other God.
I have equipped you for battle,
though you don’t even know me,
6 so all the world from east to west
will know there is no other God.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

8 “Open up, O heavens,
and pour out your righteousness.
Let the earth open wide
so salvation and righteousness can sprout up together.
I, the Lord, created them.

9 “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
10 How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father,
‘Why was I born?’
or if it said to its mother,
‘Why did you make me this way?’”

11 This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel and your Creator:
“Do you question what I do for my children?
Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 I am the one who made the earth
and created people to live on it.
With my hands I stretched out the heavens.
All the stars are at my command.
13 I will raise up Cyrus to fulfill my righteous purpose,
and I will guide his actions.
He will restore my city and free my captive people—
without seeking a reward!
I, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, have spoken!”

Bro Ironman you wrote;
"this is certainly being used of God to set us up for the knocking down of our economy and bringing us to repentance."

Well Doc everybody here knows were both members of the same choir ... :-P

There's so much going on, and the more intense it's becoming the more joy i'm getting ... For yes i do see the opportuning of a REVIVAL to our revival all others, and a refined Church worshipping God in spirit and in truth unencumbered by our present satanic black strings of gross materialism and worldliness, and THE WORK bro! ... HIS HOLY WORK OF HARVEST!!! ... ;-)

markm,

i believe just as the scripture you posted worked toward the good of God's people Israel back then, so does He work Rom. 8: 28-30 toward our benefit in all that we do, and all that is transpiring in our lifetimes ... Tho for some reason, and i believe it to be because of His sensitizing it to me, His hand in our affairs seems much more pronounced than usual!

Hello...

I might suggest that people view any program (particularly from PBS) with great skepticism. There is certainly a strong slant from the program. Additionally, we must remember that the title "neocon" itself has come to represent a demeaning slur by members of the left. I do not know of any conservative that prefers to be called a "neocon" -- particularly with its current negative connotation.

I also feel that there are a great deal of individuals that search for a conspiracy in the realm of politics. From the Kennedy assassination to the current war in Iraq, there are individuals that would blame all historical events on the self serving desires of certain individuals in power. We are not to be like them. We are implored to "test everything and hold onto the good" (I Thess. 5:21). An old cliche says that "history is written by the victors." We must be careful to distinguish (with God's help) between what is [u]truth[/u], what is [u]rumor[/u], and what is [u]propaganda[/u].

I rejoice in the efforts of conservatives (regardless of political affiliation) that try to take a stand concerning certain obvious issues (like those against abortion, homosexual marriage, limitations on religious liberty, etc...). My vote is my voice -- and I choose to apply my voice according to those Biblical standards that I hold most pressing right now. While this causes me to vote more often for Republicans, there are also some Democrats that stand opposed to some of those practices that are embraced by the Democratic Party platform (contract). Democrats such as Casey, Carter and Daley are just as strongly opposed to abortion and gay marriage as some of the most conservative Republicans. However, I often find great difficulty in seperating a candidate from his or her party's platform. This is true for both Republicans and Democrats. There are some extremely liberal Republicans -- like Guiliani, Bloomberg, and Schwarzenegger.

Our allegience is not to a political party -- but to our Father in Heaven. We are also expected to provide for the needs of our families (physical and spiritual). Often, such "protection" can take place through our votes. We are, of course, first of all Christians. Our lives should always reflect this.

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I might suggest that people view any program (particularly from PBS) with great skepticism. There is certainly a strong slant from the program."

--- Let me preface by stating my reply is in the spirit of discussion and not argument :-D ... i praise God for your reply because many a subject i believe He has me interested in most saints don't have much to say ...

Amen, i agree about sifting all things thru prayer and asking Holy Spirit's leading in discerning ... Eph.5:6 says, "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" ...

So can i ask, "What strong slant did you get from these programs"? ...

If you're coming at these documentaries with glasses tinted by a politically right wing point of view then i think you may have missed the point of this thread ... i'm what many concider a news junkie, and am only interested in the chain of events which are factually listed in these documentaries ... Did you follow day by day the events leading up to our involvement in Iraq 2? ... If so did Holy Spirit twinge your spirit, as He did mine, when it became evident that Pres. Bush (now made clear was at the behest of Rumsfeld & Cheney) seemed to be grasping at straws to go into Iraq? ...

i voted for Pres. Bush twice, for all of the reasons "the so called left" condemns me for by calling me a "RWEC" ... i understood America's reason (9/11) for going into Afghanistan, but suspected that something else was going on when we veered toward Iraq ... That made me begin to wonder to our Lord what was going on ... Eventually i began hearing about the neocons, and that's when i went on a tear to learn all i could about them ... They are not your average, everyday conservatives ... This small group are to the right of Reagan (who i also voted for) ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Additionally, we must remember that the title "neocon" itself has come to represent a demeaning slur by members of the left. I do not know of any conservative that prefers to be called a "neocon" -- particularly with its current negative connotation."

---Amen again, when it comes to voting i concider myself a Christian-Independent and don't particularly like being labeled a "right wing evangelical conservative" either, but all these terms have become part of the dialogue and i have no problem in using them in discussion for discussions sake ... Also if you look at the division in the Republican Party the Dem's aren't the only ones who refer to the neocons with disdain, even Pat Buchannan does so ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I also feel that there are a great deal of individuals that search for a conspiracy in the realm of politics. From the Kennedy assassination to the current war in Iraq, there are individuals that would blame all historical events on the self serving desires of certain individuals in power."

---Amen that's me totally, but what sets me apart from those who see this "great conspiracy" as coming from men soley is that i see such men and events as being orchestrated by the original "great conspirator" satan the devil ... All assinations are conspired, all wars are conspired, they just don't suddenly pop up and happen ... If every good and perfect gift to mankind originates from God, then whom does every evil and imperfect gift come from? ...

Christ said in John.8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Our world is full of evil, evil men, and lies because it lies in the power of the master conspirator ... The neocon's conpiracy to keep "America 1st by Any Means Necessary" i totally understand from a natural nationalistic point of view, but supernaturally i know it to be of origin from the devil because we're certainly not there for the benefit of Christ kingdom ... i also understand that whatever the devil does fits into God's will and plan, and that all things work together toward His ultimate glorification ... It is from this perspective that i view all of this, and seek to understand just how all this He will use to His Body's good ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"We are not to be like them. We are implored to "test everything and hold onto the good" (I Thess. 5:21). An old cliche says that "history is written by the victors." We must be careful to distinguish (with God's help) between what is truth, what is rumor, and what is propaganda."

---Amen, and i think that's what were doing here ... Eph.5:15 says, "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise" ... To me that means seeing all things around you by means of Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit ... Seek Him and He will not have us ignorant, i'm a witness to this ... Trouble is that many saints are so caught up in ourselves and our own little groups spiritually and politically we can only see the trees (our interests) and not the forest (God's big picture) ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I rejoice in the efforts of conservatives (regardless of political affiliation) that try to take a stand concerning certain obvious issues (like those against abortion, homosexual marriage, limitations on religious liberty, etc...). My vote is my voice -- and I choose to apply my voice according to those Biblical standards that I hold most pressing right now."

---Amen, we feel the same ... Before i vote i seek God in prayer to lead me in what would be best by His standards for this country He placed me in ... As i say to many a saint our presence in the world is not to save it, but to be a resistance (light) to evil and a preservation (salt) till such a time as He deems this period of grace complete ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Our allegience is not to a political party -- but to our Father in Heaven ... Our lives should always reflect this."

---AAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa-men!---

PS - These are from another thread: RUMSFELD OUT! ... and are about Dick Cheney ...

THE DARK SIDE
After 9/11, Vice President Richard Cheney seized the initiative. He pushed to expand executive power, transform America's intelligence agencies and bring the war on terror to Iraq. But first he had to take on George Tenet's CIA for control over intelligence.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/

Again, from a historical point of view, this is also what i remember regarding Cheyney's part in what "the left" refers to as the neocon conspiracy ... It's also interesting that Pres. Bush 41 would have nothing to do with their agenda, and the neocons concidered Pres Clinton a lost cause, but they found their niche and time (post 9/11) under Pres Bush 43, a Pres whom many believed to have been puppeted by Rumsfeld an Cheney ...

Not matter what's believed the bottom line is America and the world now totters on the edge of an unprecedented precipice ... Have we arrived at this point by the mere bumblings of men, or is there a supernatural conspiracy being wrought? :-?

Hi Rahman...

The reason that I warned about the apparent slant from PBS (including NPR and Frontline) is due to the [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/arts/television/02public.html?pagewanted=3&ei=5094&en=1085de148e09623c&hp&ex=1115092800&partner=homepage]criticism that PBS has received[/url]. I actually watch PBS and Frontline -- but I view it with healthy skepticism. Typically, I take the information that I gather from the show (including the slant) and then research it even further. For instance, Frontline ran a story about WalMart entitled [url=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/][i]Is Walmart Good for America[/i][/url]? While the show raised some interesting points about WalMarts pricing policies and its power as a global corporation -- it was far from unbiased. Some argued that the episode should have been simply entitled[url=http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200411220846.asp] [i]WalMart is BAD for America[/i][/url]!

The media is an interesting thing. Like you, I faithfully follow the "news." I read the newspaper, online sources, and of course, the occassional broadcast. However, there is a definite bias in the media. I took a graduate class in Statistics, and the text provided a scientific poll that showed that 84% of reporters (paper, broudcast and online) voted for John Kerry in 2004. The same poll showed that 89% voted for Gore in 2000. I feel that it is often difficult for these reporters to keep out their opinions of a subject -- particularly if they don't view their opinion as containing bias. But isn't that the case? FoxNews is certainly biased. But the critics that condemn such bias cannot see the greater bias in CNN or MSNBC. The opposite is also true. Additionally, we are to have the mind of Christ. Thus, it is wise to view all news reports with cognative and Biblical skepticism. I'm fairly certain this is the case with you -- but you would also be surprised with the amount of Christians who will BELIEVE ANYTHING. Remember the silly stories about [url=http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/drillingtohell.htm]scientists drilling into Hell[/url]? I attended a Church where the Pastor actually shared the story several times.

Like you, I am neither a conservative nor a liberal. I am a Christian. I vote only after much prayer and reflection. I vote according to my knowledge of the Word of God, the political process and the stands taken by candidates and their respective parties. Since I love my parents, sisters and future wife and children -- I vote in a way that will protect them from a formal governmental embrace of ungodliness. This nation was founded upon strong religious principles, but particularly on an idea of freedom to practice those beliefs. If we were to consider the distance this nation has traveled from its Godly foundation, we would be shocked. Even the most "liberal" founding fathers would be shocked at the ideas pushed by the left -- of legalized abortion, partial birth abortion, homosexual "marriage," forced sex education, removing public displays of faith, the peddling of pornography, sex and violence as "free speech," etc... These founding fathers, if they were aware at how far the nation could fall, would have certainly made provisions to stop such a moral and religious freefall.

Yet with all of the criticism directed at the course this nation has taken, I would never want to live anywhere else. I have traveled abroad. Everytime I do, I am reminded about the blessing that it is to live in this nation. The only hope for this nation -- during good times and bad -- is a revival of yearning for a relationship with the Lord. I long to see the face of God. But I also long to see this same desire in my friends, family, community and nation. I am a patriot -- but only in the sense that I want the best for my nation (and that "best" is Christ). However, I am a Christian first. I especially look out for the good of my family and the Church (I Timothy 5:8; Galations 6:10).

When it comes to political observation, it is important to remember that we typically cannot make any real analysis until after the fact. My graduate thesis was an analysis of the decision making process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis. I performed a great amount of research -- including interviews with senior members of the Administration. I was surprised at the enormous conflict within the Administration at the time (that wasn't made public for years). However, I also noticed that every man serving in the Administration seemed quite sincere. There was no "conspiracy" to keep the hostages in Iran. All of these men operated in good faith with the intelligence that was presented at the time (which termed out to be both faulty and limited). Likewise, certain members of the media are trying to display some sort of great conspiracy for a war in Iraq? Why? Why would this nation want to go through a long, drawn out conflict? It is sometimes easier to believe a "conspiracy" rather than the notion that the Government simply relied on faulty intelligence. But we must also observe the [u]complete[/u] justification for the war (part of which was conveyed by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell). It was not simply about the actual physical existence of WMDs. It was about the possibility of a madman (Saddam Hussein) eventually possessing them.

Saddam Hussein defied the international community following his agreed upon terms of surrender following the 1991 Gulf War (when he invaded Kuwait). He agreed to allow weapons inspections. But over the course of 12 years, he openly mocked the international community. Saddam Hussein CLAIMED that he was developing WMDs and had every right to do so. As a result, Bill Clinton bombed Iraq on twice occasions. Saddam Hussein attempted an assassination on the elder President Bush during a trip to the Middle East. As a result, Clinton ordered another bombing of Iraq. Saddam Hussein also massacred many thousands of his own citizens (one incident of which resulted in his current death sentence). Saddam Hussein provided large "payments" to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel. Saddam Hussein was beginning to open dialogue with certain members of Al Quaeda. While Osama and Saddam did not see eye-to-eye on doctrinal issues, Osama would have obviously liked to purchase a WMD from good ol' Saddam. The intelligence of the CIA, Pentagon, and five other nations (Russia, Germany, UK, Israel and Australia) pointed to a possible development (the stage as yet unaware) of WMDs.

I am not saying that the war was politically or morally justifiable. I simply want to remind you that there is certainly [i]another side[/i] to a conspiracy theory about the war in Iraq. What if the Administration was simply relying upon the information that they had at the time?

I agree that there is a greater conspiracy in the world today. It is an ages old conspiracy that attempts to take the minds of men off of the things of God. Today, people go around worry free -- when they should certainly worry about a life (and eternity) without God. Satan can use ANYTHING to get our minds off of a relationship with the Lord. He will use a lust for this world -- or even a lust for religion. He will use success and he will use failure. He will use wealth and he will use poverty. He will use popularity and he will use persecution. He will use education and he will use a lack of knowledge. As long as we have a real relationship with the Lord -- we can overcome and "see through" this conspiracy.

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss thank God for you! ... you wrote;
"Additionally, we are to have the mind of Christ. Thus, it is wise to view all news reports with cognative and Biblical skepticism. I'm fairly certain this is the case with you -- but you would also be surprised with the amount of Christians who will BELIEVE ANYTHING.

---Amen, tho my experience with many saints is not so much that they'll believe anything, as much as it's been they're either just to plain lazy to first of all diligently seek God for themselves on any kind of clarity spiritually and/or what's happening in current events, or they're brainwashed into easy believism of what someone tells them due to viewing everything thru their own selfish little perspective ...

You gave an example, now i'll give mine ... i'm labeled African-American and am around a great many African-American saints who view everything spiritually, and especially anything political, thru thier skin color, and historical and sometimes even present occasions of racial slight ... We can't soar in the spiritual freedom of Christ for being to busy holding onto what keeps us from soaring ... Some white saints have this problem too, but for different things they hold onto ... i guess you could say all saints do in some way or another, but as you say we're supposed to gain the mind of Christ at the expense of our own ...

It took a little while but eventually Holy Spirit led me to the point where my place in Christ as a Christian took full sway, and it was then that He began to refocus my eyes to the entire forest (this whole wicked system of things) instead of just on my own little tree (oh woe is me look how the rest of the world has restricted me) ...

So no i'm not surprised by saints who'll believe anything ... i'm surprised (pleasantly) by saints who question, who diligently seek God, who study His Word, and who research in a wide variety of venues (when it comes to news) in order to come to some informed view of whats going on ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"If we were to consider the distance this nation has traveled from its Godly foundation, we would be shocked. Even the most "liberal" founding fathers would be shocked at the ideas pushed by the left"

--- Amen again ... i just had such a recent shock of just haow far America has fallen in just the last 100 years via bro Rookies thread: DAYS ARE EVIL II ... Where he posted this link;

THE CENTURY OF SELF 1 - 4
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=THE+CENTURY+OF+SELF+4+OF+4

... for me this just ripped the covers off satan's conspiracy toward his dastardly deeds of luring countless souls into hell spearheaded via his twisted reworkings of the American meanings of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... This documentary was done by the BBC ... If you feel led of Holy Spirit to give it a listen i'd like to know if you see a liberal slant in this also?

i noted your example of the Frontline piece on Wal-Mart, and yes their are slants all over the place, but as a child of God i recognize the slants both left, right and center, while extracting what i believe Holy Spirit wants me to know ... Frontline also did two pieces called: THE MERCHANTS OF COOL & THE PERSUADERS which i'm sure some liberals thought slanted toward the right for they just straight up revealed how major corporations such as VIACOM (MTV) are just marketing filth to our kids for profit ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"The only hope for this nation -- during good times and bad -- is a revival of yearning for a relationship with the Lord."

---Amen ... now this is the true bottom line ... But isn't it obvious that unless God forces us to our knees via His terrible grace of correction, we ain't going on our own? ... i personally believe that the consequenses of this war will be used by God to His pupose and benefit to us ... i see financial collapse coming to America, and this war as speeding us toward it even sooner than we not embarked ... Gross materialism is what's keeping most of our eyes off Him ... i've watched much of the AF/AM church in America go from "Lord, Please Help Us Gain Our Freedom!" to "Ok Lord Now That We've Got That Can I Now Get The American Dream?"

ccchhhrrriiisss i can honestly say that outside of SI i don't know one other saint interested in REVIVAL, but say PROSPERITY in my circle and suddenly you got a congregation! ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"When it comes to political observation, it is important to remember that we typically cannot make any real analysis until after the fact. My graduate thesis was an analysis of the decision making process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis. I performed a great amount of research -- including interviews with senior members of the Administration. I was surprised at the enormous conflict within the Administration at the time (that wasn't made public for years). However, I also noticed that every man serving in the Administration seemed quite sincere. There was no "conspiracy" to keep the hostages in Iran. All of these men operated in good faith with the intelligence that was presented at the time (which termed out to be both faulty and limited)."

---Amen i agree, thus the saying "hind sight is always 20/20 ... i'm not saying that all conspiracy theories are valid as in the first meaning of the word, as i think those who think our government flew the planes into or buildings are just plain stupid, as i question the reasoning of some who believe our government was responsible for blowing up the levees during Katrina (tho Watergate was in fact of the first meaning) ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Likewise, certain members of the media are trying to display some sort of great conspiracy for a war in Iraq? Why? Why would this nation want to go through a long, drawn out conflict? It is sometimes easier to believe a "conspiracy" rather than the notion that the Government simply relied on faulty intelligence. But we must also observe the complete justification for the war (part of which was conveyed by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell). It was not simply about the actual physical existence of WMDs. It was about the possibility of a madman (Saddam Hussein) eventually possessing them."

---But again there are some conspiracies in the sense of the second meaning: to act in harmony toward a common end ... This i believe can be attributed to the neocon agenda, which is/was one far past the status quo conservative agenda ... The neocon agenda of war in Iraq is a surprise to them for i believe they really thought it would be short, sweet and to the point of securing oil for our future, as well as establishing a place for us in the middle east politically, economically and militarily ... Many think the neocon agenda a pack of lies regarding the reasons we're they're because we've built 52 military bases, and a large embassy building ... That says to many that even if we won't be able to stay, our intent was to ...

And as for Saddam eventually possesing nuclear weapons he could sell to Islamic extremist, our CIA reports stated even back on 03 that N Korea was more of a threat in that arena, with Iran up and coming ... Our stated reasons for being in Iraq may be "some truths" but their not "all truths" ---

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I am not saying that the war was politically or morally justifiable. I simply want to remind you that there is certainly another side to a conspiracy theory about the war in Iraq. What if the Administration was simply relying upon the information that they had at the time?"

--- Amen ... But as i asked you before, "didn't your spiritual spider senses start to tingle when Pres Bush began in attempting to scare us into this war"? ... Mine did, and i remember thinking "they're grasping at straws here" ... For one thing i remember a report that came out stating that the so called uranium dirt Saddam was supposed to have been getting from Nigeria wasn't the type used in making nuclear weapontry ... i even entertained that Pres Bush was going after Saddam because of his attempting to kill his dad ... It wasn't until i began researching the neocons, and all the subsequent info that's come out about them that i began to expect something larger (in the man sense) and even more sinister (in the satanic sense) ...

i know that i'm laying a lot on you here but if you fell led by Holy Spirit to check this out i'd also be intersted in your take on this, and if you also see a slant here;

THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES 1 - 3
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm

... this also is a BBC History Documentary of what led up to this current clash between Islam and the so called Christian U.S.

ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"I agree that there is a greater conspiracy in the world today. It is an ages old conspiracy that attempts to take the minds of men off of the things of God. Today, people go around worry free -- when they should certainly worry about a life (and eternity) without God. Satan can use ANYTHING to get our minds off of a relationship with the Lord. He will use a lust for this world -- or even a lust for religion. He will use success and he will use failure. He will use wealth and he will use poverty. He will use popularity and he will use persecution. He will use education and he will use a lack of knowledge. As long as we have a real relationship with the Lord -- we can overcome and "see through" this conspiracy."

---AAAAAaaaaaaa-men ... and that's just what our Lord has shown me thus far, how the master conspirator conspires thru men to lead the multitude of mankind into the pit of hell, because we're to busy paying attention to "the natural" to ever get His eyesalve to see what's really going on in the super-natural ...

"Seeing" ... that's what makes this time so crucial to me ... How many saints do you know who fit into the category of being "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked", and don't even know it?

it's good to converse with you here, bless God, and thank you! ... :-D

hey bro Chris
i thank God for your input here, it is good in that we can all learn from eachother provided we are open to doing so.

when the whole case for war was drummed up it vexed me in my spirit in a way i couldn't ignore because it was to me a thing which would complicate things for us down the line. i think though the major source of frustration was not so much the complications or the fact that saddam was not as deadly a threat as some others but that i wasn't looking at it all from the perspective of what God was doing. The rightness/wrongness of this is of no consequence. the thing of gravity which i think gets lost is what God is doing. Creation is for the purpose of revealing the manifold wisdom of God through the Church to the principalities and powers and everything which happens therein serves that purpose. i see where our Lord is taking this nation, toward judgment and this goes for the world in general.

it is interesting how things happen, if i remember right, when Saddam got a bunch of weapons from the U.S. it was Don Rumsfeld who shook his hand, a couple of decades later he prosecuted the war against him! who would have thought? now i look at history in a completely different light and things make sense now. i see the present in a whole new light (hence i'm not tense unlike others) because i see things from God's perspective and His purpose as given to Paul in Ephesians 3.

we live in exciting times, well at least i see it like that anyway because we're headed toward the judgement which precedes what i think we most desire, REVIVAL! Maranatha!

Yet with all of the criticism directed at the course this nation has taken, I would never want to live anywhere else. I have traveled abroad. Everytime I do, I am reminded about the blessing that it is to live in this nation. The only hope for this nation -- during good times and bad -- is a revival of yearning for a relationship with the Lord. I long to see the face of God. But I also long to see this same desire in my friends, family, community and nation. I am a patriot -- but only in the sense that I want the best for my nation (and that "best" is Christ). However, I am a Christian first. I especially look out for the good of my family and the Church (I Timothy 5:8; Galations 6:10).

i'm not sure where you have been around the world but i was born here and grew up in ZImbabwe and in spite of the sorry state Zimbabwe is in, i love that nation dearly and would rather be there for whatever reason. Perhaps it is that my family is there is that our Lord has given me a burden for it. nonetheless there are some blessings about that place which to you would be abstract. i'm sure some of the people in the nations you have visited may feel the same about America. what is it to be blessed in living here that exceeds what is is to be blessed in living elsewhere? i ask this not in a spirit of contention but i always here other Americans keep saying this and have yet to understand why? is it because we have much to eat, gadgets, money, democracy? i think of saints suffering without enough to eat in various nations whose subsistence has become the Lord Himself. those who are persecuted and have learned to lean more totally on Him than we have. those are mighty things bro. i see those a indeed very mighty blessings, much more so than any i have received outside of salvation. oh to come to a point where i lean wholly on the Lord!

perhaps my point of view is a bit slanted having had the experience of growing up elsewhere! :-P nonetheless i praise our Lord for it because He made it so for His own purposes and i hope through it our Lord can speak to us all and prod us to seek Him a bit more.

ultimately bro things will fall apart here and we will have to come to a point where we lean on our Lord totally. i hear of the persecution of our brethren in Ethiopia and so on and the more i am led through the O.T. the more i am convinced that we in America will not be spared the persecutions which our brethren elsewhere have suffered. our nation will crumble around us under His judgement and unless we have our Faith rooted in Him, we too will crumble. The dire situation which is in Zimbabwe (economic collapse) will soon visit our shores here, as i believe our Lord told me, next yr. it will be that much worse because we have that much more. let us not be found wanting in Faith and Trusting our Lord.

I am a patriot -- but only in the sense that I want the best for my nation (and that "best" is Christ). However, I am a Christian first. I especially look out for the good of my family and the Church (I Timothy 5:8; Galations 6:10).

i'm with you bro! let us press on to the deep things of God and learn to see all things in the light of what He is working to do.AMEN.

I was watching the evening news this evening. There was a story about an Iraqi family who now find themselves refugees. They are slowly selling off their positions in order to survive.

This particular family was of mixed marriage. The husband was Sunni, and the wife Shia. I remember a similar news item concerning these mixed marriages. It was about 2 years ago. The wisdom at that time was that because the Sunni and Shia freely mixed with each other there was little to worry about the ability of the people to accept democracy. The evil Saddam Hussein was removed and now we could expect peace.

Now, as I sit in my chair contemplating the turn of events this thought came to mind.

I remembered how the politicians rejoiced about our country's prospects for a decade of budget surpluses. I remembered how in one years time that "truth" evaporated.

Likewise, another "truth" has evaporated. Under the government of Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi people lived in relative peace. Even with the economic sanction burdens placed upon that country by outsiders, they still managed.

Now look at what has happened. Iraq has fallen into a religious war between the Sunni and Shia. The prospects of peace and democracy have evaporated. The prospect of Civil war in two neighboring countries is growing daily. The Middle East is beginning to burn.

I have heard rumors that the United States is considering setting free Tariq Aziz, the former prime minister who served under Saddam. The rumor has it that the United States might support the Baath Party once again. The rumor has it that the United States is planning another coup to upset the current government.

Whether this is true or not, one things seems clear. The recent actions taken by the United States to change the regime of Iraq has only set Satan free to do what is his specialty. He seeks to devour, to destroy the nations of this world.

Isaiah 14:12

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground. You have weakened the nations!"

just a thought on how foolish men are who turn away from their Maker.

In Christ
Jeff

[color=FF0000]After thinking about this last night i wanted to post this ...

FOR THE RECORD ...

This thread was started as a provision of a history, in the natural realm, of how America came to be at war in Iraq ... i'm not particularly interested in any type of political slants, or the provings or dis-provings of what political party may have conspired to do whatever ...

AGAIN ... we all know who the ultimate evil conspirator is, and he'd like nothing better than to have us fixated on who in the natural conspired to do what, instead of fixating on and pointing the ultimate finger at him for all this evil ...

The only slant i'm interested in is God's and how such dire current events, whom i believe satan is ultimately responsible for (Isa. 14:12, Rev. 12:9) but is allowed by God - or perhaps even orchestrated by God (2 Chron. 20:6, Jer. 27:5&6, Job 12:16, Dan. 4:17), fit into God's supernatural plan and purpose for we His people, in this day and time, toward our ultimate good hopefully bringing us to major REPENTANCE & REVIVAL, and His ultimate glory ... Amen :-D [/color]

Bro Jeff you wrote;
"The recent actions taken by the United States to change the regime of Iraq has only set Satan free to do what is his specialty. He seeks to devour, to destroy the nations of this world."

This gives me a chance to again attempt to get my point across ... i believe the actions taken by America, via the neocons, are not their own, nor inspired of themselves, or thought up by them ...

[b]I BELIEVE IT'S ALL SATAN MANIPULATING THE VANITY OF MEN AGAINST THE VANITY OF MEN ...[/b]

It seems we focus on everything and everybody the devil works thru, instead of focusing on the evil source himself ... i thoroughly believe this is one of the reasons the Church is so weak ... Do we truly believe that ours is not a battle against flesh and blood? ...

Satan's already free to do whatever he wants, by Adam's disobedience, until such a time as God abyses him ... Scripture says the the whole world is in his power, and as you pointed out in Isaiah it's he that weakens the nations, until such a time as "the kingdoms of this world (which are now his) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ" - Rev. 11:15

Part of my continuing weirdness is that i now see satan behind everything that's not "oriented to God pleasing" (beginning with myself), including a whole lot of church practises ... You know when it comes to praising, worshipping, adoring and pleasing God it don't take to much more than just "making a joyful noise unto Him", "confessing His name before men" and "loving one another as He loves us and our neighbors as we love ourselves" ... i think that's what the early church knew, and i think we can know it a anew when He removes what distracts us, and corrects us to REPENTANCE & REVIVAL! ... This is what i believe is gonna be birthed for us saints in America out of this present madness - Rom. 8:28

Bottom line: Do we see what satan is doing right now? ... Do we see what God is doing right now in allowing satan to do what he doing? ...

Sadly i think: Not yet ... :-(
Gladly i think: Soon, and very soon! ... :-D

Hi Bartle and Rahman...

Actually, I performed over two years of research into my topic (the decision making of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis). I traveled from Washington to Georgia to California several times. Throughout this journey, I spent time at the Carter/Reagan/Bush/Clinton libraries, the National Archives, and with private interviews with senior members of the Carter Administration (and concurrent officials from the CIA, the Pentagon, etc...). My thesis manuscript has been augmented further and it is currently being prepared for publication. I am also using this thesis as a framework for my current phD dissertation.

Through my research, I examined the decision making process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis using Graham Allison's three models of foreign policy decision making from his classic [i]Essence of Decision[/i] (in which he explained the Cuban Missile Crisis) within the six phases of the Crisis described by Warren Christopher (President Carter's Deputy Secretary of State).

The "conspiracy" about the release of the American hostages in Iran is called the "October Surprise Conspiracy." I actually included a chapter of this within my augmented thesis manuscript. However, it has been debunked several times by Congress (as recently as the 1992 and 1993 Democratic inquiries). President Carter himself also personally debunked the idea. The final resolution that resulted in the release of the hostages came completely from President Carter (and certain “doves” within his Administration) -- and was made weeks before Reagan was inaugurated. According to the conclusions of [u]every[/u] official (including Democratic) inquiry into the matter, there is simply no evidence that the October 1980 trip to Paris of then Vice Presidential candidate George H. W. Bush had anything to do with a “conspiracy” to delay negotiations.

In the conclusion to my thesis, I argue that it was diplomacy -- and not military actions (or a threat of future military actions) -- that brought an end to the Crisis and the release of the hostages unharmed. Sadly, the Crisis was prolonged because the “hawks” in the Carter Administration chose (and threatened) a military response from the very beginning, while the few historical anecdotes used by the “doves” (particularly Secretary of State Cyrus Vance, Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher, and CIA director Stansfield Turner -- of the events of the USS Pueblo, the Angus Ward Incident, etc…) were ignored. The Administration chose a flawed military response (called Operations Rice Bowl and Operation Eagle Claw) because of faulty intelligence. The CIA’s intelligence could not foresee an Islamic Revolution, a storming of the Embassy, the hostages that would be taken, or the problems that would involve a military response. This is eerily similar to the hasty decision to go to war in Iraq.

During the Crisis (and the immediate aftermath), many Americans placed the blame solely upon President Carter. Americans are certainly aware of our military might – and they were aware of self-imposed constraints on military action. Polls indicated that Americans believe that victory could have easily been achieved in Vietnam if the Government had not placed restraints on the use of force (in a hope of not escalating the crisis with China and the Soviet Union). Americans felt the same was true with Iran. Not only did the nation not want to escalate the Crisis, but Carter was most concerned for the safety of the hostages. With the exception of the two day Operation Eagle Claw debacle, and in the face of weakening support, Carter decided to continue diplomacy throughout Crisis. Had a single hostage been killed, the decision was already made to implement a full scale military strike (according to both Carter and Brzezinski).

It wasn’t until after the Carter Administration did Americans become aware of the real “cause” of the Crisis and self-imposed military limitations. First of all, the roots of the Crisis were founded on a history of Western involvement in the region following World War II. The Americans had staged a successful coup d’État in Iran in order to preserve the power of the Shah Pahlavi over the popular (and democratically elected) President Mohammed Mossadegh. The events surrounding “Operation Ajax” were just beginning to become common knowledge in the Middle East. Many Iranians grew tired of the Shah’s brutal reign. Since the U.S. and U.K. virtually installed the Shah into power, the citizens of Iran intrinsically linked the Shah together with the two nations.

The Crisis in the Middle East was also much larger than the hostages in Iran. Of much greater significance was the all encompassing “Islamic Revolution” (and subsequent embrace of radical Islamic extremism) that was changing the nature of the Middle East – and the world. There would no longer be a Cold War “bipolar balance” in the world (of Democracy v. Communism) imposed by the two great powers. This event, along with the failed Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, showed that a [i]third choice[/i] was possible – where a third world nation could choose non-allegiance (or non-compliance). The greatest failure in Iran was the fact that we acted too slowly and with little decisiveness. It conveyed a weakness to the Middle East that still exists to this day.

There are things about the current war in Iraq that we will not know for years to come. Before any real judgment can be made, an examination of the memoirs and records of senior members of the Administration will need to be made. Hopefully, we will have the full account available for examination. Prior to his testimony before the 9/11 Commission, former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4189-2004Jul21?language=printer]pled guilty to removing and destroying some documents from the National Archives[/url] regarding the Clinton Administration’s [url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/04/01/national/w111624S64.DTL]knowledge of 9/11[/url]. The extent of these documents will never be known, but they were obviously important enough that the former National Security Advisor risked his career (and freedom) by traveling to Washington, stealing the documents and [url=http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/01/berger.plea/index.html?section=cnn_latest]then hand-destroying them with scissors[/url]. After he pled guilty, he was [url=http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+Berger+to+pay+%2450%2C000+for+taking+classified+material&expire=&urlID=15468961&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fwashington%2F2005-09-08-berger-sentenced_x.htm&partnerID=1660] fined $50,000 and barred from any access to classified government documents for three years[/url]. Hopefully, no one from the Bush Administration will do likewise.

It is important that we realize that the criticisms that we make about the war in Iraq today might actually change tomorrow. Why? Once we have access to all of the intelligence that was available to the White House, Pentagon, CIA and Congress – we might change our opinions concerning the decisions that were made. There are certainly some pressing questions that should be answered. Why did we go to War so quickly? Why did the Clinton and Bush Administrations (along with the United Nations) allow Iraq to ignore his terms of surrender for so long and allow inspection of weapons facilities? Why did Saddam Hussein publicly claim to be developing and in the possession of WMDs? Why did the US believe that either Iraq had WMDs or was developing WMDs? Was the war even remotely justified? It would be impossible to reach a real conclusion right now – particularly with the voices from both the right and left that have already reached a conclusion.

It is obvious now that the nation of Iraq is in a terrible condition. However, my uncle is in Baghdad right now. He stated to me that most of the nation is no where nearly as uncivil as the media presents. The violence from the “insurgency” is actually confined to a few areas of the nation. While the violence is terrible, the situation is far from anarchy. Thus it is impractical to suggest that the Iraqis were better off during the days of Hussein. As bad as the condition is today, it was in a much worse condition during the days of Saddam Hussein. The deaths at the time did not result from bombs, rockets or suicide bombers. Rather, these executions came from the Government itself. The extent of this brutality will not be fully understood until the nation resolves this crisis peacefully. But even the most ardent anti-war activists in Congress admit that conditions under Hussein were barbaric (to say the least).

Was there a conspiracy or pre-existant plan to go to war in Iraq? There were obviously plans existant concerning a possible scenario (as always exist for hypothetical scenarios). But even if there was an immature urgency for war, the outcome was certainly made in good faith. No person or "architect" wanted to go into war just to throw a nation into chaos. No person wanted to go into war just to have cause a long, drawn out conflict. The reasoning for war has been stated by the Administration, and futher reasoning will certainly come to light in the years following the Administration's exit. Regardless of the reasoning, a good and noble outcome was most certainly hoped for. Whether it was an attempt to stop a regime from developing weapons of mass destruction or to create a free democracy in the Middle East -- the end was certainly admirable. Will the U.S. succeed in this sort of endeavor? The end result is still to be seen and will not be realized for years.

From a completely spiritual perspective, we must strive to stay away from an opinion that is, at best, based upon worldly wisdom. I often find myself wrestling with the line between my relationship with Christ and my involvement with the affairs of this world -- including things that are political in nature. Currently, I feel that I carry my relationship with Christ within every aspect of my “natural life.” My relationship with God influences all areas of my life. This includes my comings and my goings, my beliefs, my relationships and my voting habits. However, I feel that it is very healthy (in a spiritual and natural sense) to be skeptical of everything that we see or hear. I do not cast my lot with the right or with the left. Rather, my allegiance is solely with Christ. As an undergrad, I was taught that the Universe is the result of a cosmic accident – and that life evolved over a period of millions of years. There are some definite conflicts between “accepted” science and Biblical truths. Some believers often seek to find “middle ground” between science and faith. I simply choose to believe God – regardless of what the “accepted” science teaches or “reveals” or what my “natural mind” wants to believe. I learned a long time ago that I must be skeptical and “test everything” in regards to the “accepted” truths of this world (and even the “accepted” truths of the Church).

My desire for this nation is not that they merely become “moral” or “religious” people. While this would be advantageous for the impedance of obvious sin and filth – it does not answer any sort of real spiritual problem. A moral people will still go to Hell. This nation needs a true revival. My desire for my country is that they freely hunger for a real relationship with God. This nation needs a genuine [u]desire[/u] to know the Lord. This cannot come about through legislation. But legislation can serve to protect the ability of a people to freely seek God (both publicly and privately). Of course, we can seek God in secret (like those citizens living under the dominion of communism or state-mandated Islam). While the tenacity and diligence of believers in such circumstances is heroic, the fact remains that the population of the believers in such circumstances remains relatively small. As Paul said, “[i]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?[/i]” (Romans 10:14).

The Church will continue under difficult circumstances in much the same way that it existed during the beginning. However, we are privileged to live in a nation where we can legally “shout it from the rooftops, highways and byways.” Unfortunately, there are individuals and groups in this nation that are currently seeking to limit any sort of public displays of faith while at the same time seeking to allow the public display of wickedness. The ACLU will fight against a cross from being displayed by the public, but they will fight for pornographic billboards that can be viewed by children. I know of a believer that was required to take down his Christmas yard sign that read “Wise Men Still Seek Jesus” while neighbors were allowed to have a vulgar statue. Unless believers take a stand as citizens (using the government and political system itself like Paul did), then we will continue to witness an encroachment upon our legal rights of faith. As believers, thus, we must “[i]prove all things, hold fast that which is good[/i]” (I Thessalonians 5:21). We must abstain from aligning ourselves with or making judgments squarely with the left or the right – and make certain that our allegiance is completely with the Lord (and his principles).

:-)

Br.Bartle wrote:

You ever hunt? You ever been to Dealey Plaza in Dallas? You really think one gunman killed President Kennedy?

I stood at the fence on that grassy knole. That is an evil place.

Another note, there has been new evidence brought out in Great Britian regarding the assasination of Bobby Kenedey. In the film clips taken in the Hotel that night, the researcher found 3 CIA men on site, in the same rooms during that event. The CIA has no jurisdiction in internal national affairs. They had no reason to be there that night...or did they?

In Christ
Jeff

---Wow bro Chris! ...

What you've done, and are doing is very impressive ... i like discussing such events, from a Godly worldview, with interested and informed people ...

But i'm a strange bird (some would say period :-P ) when it comes to history once it's happened, because for me once something occurs it becomes apparent to me that that was God's will ... This is how i feel about every passing second ... Once it's past God's will has been done, and when it comes to political events such as Watergate, Irangate, Iraqgate, or whatever "gate" there's always a whole bunch of partisan accusing, posturing and bearing false witness as to who conspired what against whom, which usually ends up in a whole lot of taxpayer money being spent "in order to get to the bottom of this" ... We all know what usually happen is if any wrong can be proven the lower guys on the totem pole take the fall to protect the head honco ... It's these types of shenanigans, and especially the bearing of false witness, that let me know the agendas of such men, even tho as you point out may be out of good intentions, to me are not Godly intentions to the benefit of the Church and His glory, but to that of the nation, a political party, or an
ideology of satan, tho seemingly as benign as Democracy ... Out of all the political agendas in the world i think Democracy works best and am glad God placed me an American citizen with a vote, but the best government period is God's Theocracy and of course this won't be realized until after "all the kingdoms of the world fall under His Kingdom" ...

i'm aware of what happened in Iran from "All The Shah's Men", as i'm also aware of a lot of the ancient history leading up to our present ... Again i like history not in the capacity to see what MAN has done to bring us to the brink of what presently could take us into a WWIII situation (not saying that it will but it surely is dangerous enough), but just what satan is doing via mankind, and how it comes to the benefit of God's plan and His ultimate glory ... So again i care nothing much for who puts what slant on history telling, or to constantly bicker about who did what, when and where, i'm only interested in the history as to the actual events taking place themselves (the time-line), and how such past events link to our present ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"The Crisis in the Middle East was also much larger than the hostages in Iran. Of much greater significance was the all encompassing “Islamic Revolution” (and subsequent embrace of radical Islamic extremism) that was changing the nature of the Middle East – and the world. There would no longer be a Cold War “bipolar balance” in the world (of Democracy v. Communism) imposed by the two great powers. This event, along with the failed Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, showed that a third choice was possible – where a third world nation could choose non-allegiance (or non-compliance)."

--- Uh-huh this is a pretty good summary of what's taken place in the natural, but it's my belief that all the events that unfold in our lives become a history of the battle between God (good) and satan (evil) played out thru us ... Again when such horrendous events as is occuring in our lives today occur, i think people of God begin to stop, look and listen! ... History tells us this also occured during both World Wars, tho i think we today are a lot more glib in attributing what's happening now to some serious rumblings in the super-natural ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"The reasoning for war has been stated by the Administration, and futher reasoning will certainly come to light in the years following the Administration's exit. Regardless of the reasoning, a good and noble outcome was most certainly hoped for. Whether it was an attempt to stop a regime from developing weapons of mass destruction or to create a free democracy in the Middle East -- the end was certainly admirable.

---This is why i asked you, if you felt led of Holy Spirit, to listen to and tell me what you think of the historical data and timeline in this documentary;

[b]THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES 1 - 3[/b]
(a BBC History Documentary of what led up to this current clash between Radical Islam and the so called Reagan
Conservative/Neocon/Christian U.S.)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm

The third episode still has me pondering because the guy tries to prove that Alqeda is no where near the world wide network it's made out to be by our & GB's governments ... What the guy is saying is that our governments have lured us into, and is controlling us to do what they desire, by fear ... Could be but here's the deal, if the Neocons did use 9/11 as their jumping us into what they surely thought would be an easy war and take over of Iraq, they were dead wrong and now we're in a world of hurt that i believe satan's orchestrated just at God's perfect timing for His will to be done in America, and in His Church here ...

You speak of "the good intentions of such men", but have you ever heard the adage "The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions", or as scripture says, "There's a Way That Appears Right Unto a Man", or the even more heartbreaking "Get Away From Me You Workers of Unrighteousness ... I know You Not" ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"Prior to his testimony before the 9/11 Commission, former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger pled guilty to removing and destroying some documents from the National Archives regarding the Clinton Administration’s knowledge of 9/11 ... After he pled guilty, he was fined $50,000 and barred from any access to classified government documents for three years. Hopefully, no one from the Bush Administration will do likewise.

There are things about the current war in Iraq that we will not know for years to come. Before any real judgment can be made, an examination of the memoirs and records of senior members of the Administration will need to be made. Hopefully, we will have the full account available for examination."

---From what i've read it'll take a while to get Pres. 43's records ... It's said that Pres. Bush is the most secretive president we've ever had, and that he classifies just about everything and it's gonna take the full time limit allowed by Congressional law for any of it to come out ... So i'll be surprised to see anyone in the Bush 43 administartion destroying documents ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"It is important that we realize that the criticisms that we make about the war in Iraq today might actually change tomorrow."

---See i'm not criticising the war ... Again Pres. Bush being in office, 9/11 and this war in Iraq are all past events ... This says to me that all this is God's will ... Again what i like to know is the history of events in the natural that got us here, because i find knowing such to be much more effective in my witnessing to folk who talk about such ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"No person or "architect" wanted to go into war just to throw a nation into chaos. No person wanted to go into war just to have caused a long, drawn out conflict."

--- See i'm prone to agree with you about "no person", but i disagree about "no architect" ... As bro Rookie pointed out from Isaiah 14:12, satan loves to weaken the nations ... That's what the master conspirator does, he creates and then plays the fears and vanities of men against men ... Again, when i look at what's going on in Iraq i don't see men killing one another, i see the devil killing men on all sides ... The only saving grace i see in all of this carnage is that God sits above all, and even tho we may not understand why, and how, all things work together for the good of we the called according to His purpose, and to His ultimate glory! ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"We must abstain from aligning ourselves with or making judgments squarely with the left or the right – and make certain that our allegiance is completely with the Lord (and his principles)."

--- Amen!!! ... that's exactly my puny human aspiration!

God bless you bro Chris, and thanks again for this discussion ... i post long, and have no problem reading when you post long to ... When one enjoys something the only problem seems to be that it comes to an end ... :-D ---